73 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I admit the Elves don't accept fault for what happened either and that if the Elves won they probably would of done the same as the Chantry. What I am arguing about is when people say the Chantry is benign and ignore or forgive them for the things they do, some even go and put all the blame on the victims and treat the Chantry as innocent.

 

I believe the Chantry can be a force for good in the world but as it is now and has been in the past I think they are a hateful organisation and would need to be broken down fully and rebuilt in to a better Chantry.

 

You do realize that the Chantry is a centuries (if not millenia) old organization?  Every old, powerful organization has some darkness in its past.  I've seen posts praising Tevinter, the Dales, the Grey Wardens, the Qun - all of these nations or organizations have done, and some still do, terrible things.  Tevinter & the Qun, at the very least, still do them - maybe on a smaller scale than creating an ocean of blood from elven slaves, but things are still terrible there.  Meanwhile, you have the Chantry, one of the only multi-national organizations that has some power over the local nobility, with significantly fewer problems than the above.

 

Here's the list of exalted marches :

 

http://dragonage.wik...Exalted_Marches

 

1. Against Tevinter -> Led by Andraste herself; not by the Chantry.
2. Against the Dales -> Led by the Chantry because the Dalish were cutting a swathe through Orlais and would soon sack Val Royeaux.  Again, this was not called until the Dale forces were marauding their way through Orlais.
3. Starkhaven -> Called to take it back from the Tevinter Imperium.  This is the first real politically called one.
4. Tevinter -> 4 were called; these were entirely religious.
5. Qunari -> "Many" were called; this was to drive back the invasion and forcible conversion (don't forget the Qunari used drugs) and they were called by both the Black and White Chantry.

The suggested Exalted Marches against Orzammar never happen.

[Vicious]

Agreed. Chantry in-game is pretty varied. I liked Grand Cleric Elthina but hated Mother Petrice. Liked Mother Hannah but hated the Lothering Revered Mother. The chant and the story of Andraste? Awesome. 

 

Agreed with this 100% I mean obviously the lore has a lot of real-world counterparts but... it's... not.. uhhhhh.

 

edit: oh god it's turning into one of those threads. Guys, shush up and have a sip of tea. It's not real life.

 

 

Any chantry discussion devolves into that... people like to claim that they are standing up for the elfs etc, when only one game in the series so far actually let you play as an elf, or standing up for the mages when the game shows you that there is clear corruption on both sides.

 

but really its just about being anti religion and the chantry is religion. This place has a few loudmouthed nutjobs... wonder how bioware attracted them?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The missionaries that the Chantry sent were turned away from the Dales so the Chantry then sent Templars for the express reason of making sure the missionaries can get into the Dales and go where ever they want, they did this before the war started and it showed they cared nothing for the Elven sovereignty and were willing to kill to force their beliefs on others.

 

The riot was because the Dwarves were restricting the rights of the tiny Andrastian minority, but they were still allowing them in Orzammar which is more then the Chantry would ever do and are allowing the missionaries to preach but the Chantry wanted to do what ever they wanted and ignore another races laws.

 

The Chantry does not allow missionaries from other religions in their lands and kills the ones that do come. The Chantry has been the biggest bully on the playground for a long time but now a bigger bully is coming  along (the Qunari)  and they are using the same tactics that the Chantry have used in the past i.e. sending forces to allow missionaries to go where they want ignoring the countries wishes, and forming their own exulted march when their missionary force was stopped and the Chantry now is in the position of the Elves with their homelands being invaded because of an other religion yet they would still do the same thing to another race if they could.

 

The castless are badly treated and have little rights yes but the Elves are treated much worse Thousands are forced into spaces fit for a few hundred, they are starved, abused and murdered freely with no rights to complain or try to stop it from happening. The Dalish are classed as vermin and are chased off Chantry land and killed if they refuse to leave, the Chantry wipes out any past Elven culture to keep the Elves where they are.

 

The right of Annulment has become increasingly common and the Templars have invoked it for a lot of reasons and they have not been punished for the murders of every Man, Woman and Child in the circle because they did not want to do their jobs but just wanted to do what ever they wanted to Mages with the Chantry permission. The Chantry have always viewed the Mages as weapons be it against Tevinter or the Qunari or the Dwarves.

 

The Qunari and the Chantry say it was the Mages that stopped the Qunari advance and the mages were the force the Qunari feared and did not know how to deal with.

 

1. The only source that mentions Templars ever entering the Dales is a Dalish codex entry about the Fall of the Dales that is so abreviated, it is almost certainly talking about the Exalted March itself. It only mentions that templars were sent after the missionaries. It says nothing of what they did there. It then immediately says the elves were driven from Halamshiral, as if the templars were the reason for it. Ergo, if they were, then it must be during the Exalted March.

 

2. The epilogue says that Brother Burkle's Chantry attracted many converts, so obviously they weren't a tiny minority. That's exactly why the Assembly passed laws to restrict their rights. But even if they were, so what? Are you actually saying its ok to persexcuate a people if they are a minority? Are you saying other races laws should always be defended, even if they restrict the rights of their peoples?

 

3. The Chantry kills any other missionaries? Name any examples.

 

4. The Qunari is ABOSLUTELY not doing the same thing as the Chantry. The Chantry sent peaceful missionaries to another country and they were expelled. As a result, relations worsened between the Dales and Orlais. Eventually war broke out. Intially the elves were winning but then Orlais turned the tide when the Divine called upon more people to join their fight. The Qunari Wars were totally different. As soon as as the Qunari arrived in Thedas the FIRST thing they did was go to war with the natives. Their first contact with the humans of Thedas was a massive contintent-wide invasion that subjugated a third of their territory. The Qunari's first, last and only way to truly spread the rule of the Qun is by force. They do not and have never sent out peaceful missionaries. Meanwhile there are many cultures that live on the edge of Chantry rule that aren't Andrastian. Has the Divine ever called an Exalted March against the Avvar or Chasind or Rivaini pantheists?

 

5. The elves are treated worse than the castless? They really aren't. You should play the origins again. Dalish are not treated as "vermin." Occasionally they even trade with human settlements. They are chased off if they stay near human habitations for too long but the templars or any rabble usually leave them alone if they leave the area. City Elves have it worse, but Castless are the only ones who have live a mostly miserable existence. City Elves are less poor, have more rights and are able to find more joy in thier day to day lives than Castless. Even the human nobles have less contempt for them than the nobles in the Assembly of Orzammar have for the castless, when Loghain was selling them into slavery it was a scandal because they were still Ferelden citizens.

 

6. You don't know the reasons that the Right of Annulment has been invoked for or that it's becoming more and more common over the years, because it doesn't say anywhere. You don't even have much of a reaosn to think that most of 17 times it was invoked over the last 700 years were necessarily unjustified.

 

7. The Codex says the mages were the Chantry's greatest weapons agains the Qunari, not that they were the Chantry's only hope for surivial. Brother Genetivi seems to describe them being used in the Exalted March. The first of the three Exalted Marches against the Qunari was called in 7:25 Storm. By this point the Qunari invasion had already been halted and the humans spent the last 50 years pushing them back. But They had reached a stalemate and the Chantries called them in order to liberate the territory still controlled by the Qunari.

[ianvillan]

1. The only source that mentions Templars ever entering the Dales is a Dalish codex entry about the Fall of the Dales that is so abreviated, it is almost certainly talking about the Exalted March itself. It only mentions that templars were sent after the missionaries. It says nothing of what they did there. It then immediately says the elves were driven from Halamshiral, as if the templars were the reason for it. Ergo, if they were, then it must be during the Exalted March.

 

2. The epilogue says that Brother Burkle's Chantry attracted many converts, so obviously they weren't a tiny minority. That's exactly why the Assembly passed laws to restrict their rights. But even if they were, so what? Are you actually saying its ok to persexcuate a people if they are a minority? Are you saying other races laws should always be defended, even if they restrict the rights of their peoples?

 

3. The Chantry kills any other missionaries? Name any examples.

 

4. The Qunari is ABOSLUTELY not doing the same thing as the Chantry. The Chantry sent peaceful missionaries to another country and they were expelled. As a result, relations worsened between the Dales and Orlais. Eventually war broke out. Intially the elves were winning but then Orlais turned the tide when the Divine called upon more people to join their fight. The Qunari Wars were totally different. As soon as as the Qunari arrived in Thedas the FIRST thing they did was go to war with the natives. Their first contact with the humans of Thedas was a massive contintent-wide invasion that subjugated a third of their territory. The Qunari's first, last and only way to truly spread the rule of the Qun is by force. They do not and have never sent out peaceful missionaries. Meanwhile there are many cultures that live on the edge of Chantry rule that aren't Andrastian. Has the Divine ever called an Exalted March against the Avvar or Chasind or Rivaini pantheists?

 

5. The elves are treated worse than the castless? They really aren't. You should play the origins again. Dalish are not treated as "vermin." Occasionally they even trade with human settlements. They are chased off if they stay near human habitations for too long but the templars or any rabble usually leave them alone if they leave the area. City Elves have it worse, but Castless are the only ones who have live a mostly miserable existence. City Elves are less poor, have more rights and are able to find more joy in thier day to day lives than Castless. Even the human nobles have less contempt for them than the nobles in the Assembly of Orzammar have for the castless, when Loghain was selling them into slavery it was a scandal because they were still Ferelden citizens.

 

6. You don't know the reasons that the Right of Annulment has been invoked for or that it's becoming more and more common over the years, because it doesn't say anywhere. You don't even have much of a reaosn to think that most of 17 times it was invoked over the last 700 years were necessarily unjustified.

 

7. The Codex says the mages were the Chantry's greatest weapons agains the Qunari, not that they were the Chantry's only hope for surivial. Brother Genetivi seems to describe them being used in the Exalted March. The first of the three Exalted Marches against the Qunari was called in 7:25 Storm. By this point the Qunari invasion had already been halted and the humans spent the last 50 years pushing them back. But They had reached a stalemate and the Chantries called them in order to liberate the territory still controlled by the Qunari.

 

1. The same source which you agree is ambiguous says the missionaries were refused so the Chantry sent in Templars, I can equally conclude that the Chantry sending in the Templars because the Elves sent away the missionaries was seen as an invasion by the Elves so they retaliated by attacking Red Crossing, so it was the Chantry that started the war.

 

2. No I don't think it is ok to persecute a minority and think that the Dwarves were in the wrong, but at least they allowed an other religion in there lands and allowed him to preach and try to convert there people, which is more then the Chantry does they refuse any other religions in their lands and they will kill their own people who do convert to different religions.

 

3. The Chantry kill Old God followers, Dragon Cult followers, they slaughtered the Qunari converts in Rivain because they had converted and buried them in mass graves. they annulled the Circle in Rivain because the mages their were seers and practiced their own religion.

 

4. The Chantry has declared exulted marches against Tevinter because they laughed at a divines death not because of blood magic. they slaughtered the Qunari converts in Rivain and also annulled their circle because they followed a different religion. The Chantry see non Humans as lesser and believe that the chant of light must be spread to all people and races for the Maker to return so they are just like the Qunari in wanting everyone to convert even if they have to use force.

 

I would also say the Chantry are just like Tevinter, both allow slavery in their lands, both have a Divine, they both see and treat the Elves the same, they both declared war on the Elves and after beating them destroyed their culture and religions wiped out their citys and enslaved their people.

 

5. The Elves are treated just as bad as the castless if not worse. The castless have a chance to marry an other caste who would then take their whole family in to their family and some of the children born to that couple get the new caste, it is still wrong but a lot better then what the city elves have.

 

6. I don't know about many of the rights of annulment but all are wrong the murder of every man woman and child in a circle because some others did something the Templars don't like is disgusting and how people can justify it is beyond me. How is the Seers of Rivain being a different religion grounds to murder every member of a circle. How is the murder of children and mages that are the only ones actually preventing demons from escaping the Fereldan circle justified.

 

7. It was the Tevinter mages who broke the main Qunari advance before the exulted march was called and they were a match for the Qunari advanced weapons, the Chantry also keeps the circles to use against Tevinter mages as well.

[iOnlySignIn]

Looking at the confirmed companions and support characters, the majority of them are chantry affiliated (of the ones that we know more than a name anyway) that being the case, and the fanatic Cassandra being a core companion by the looks, how much could we really oppose the chantry, that blind source of evil in Thedas?

 

Hahahaha "evil"... "source"... "in Thedas"...

 

^ Right here. The very reason that religion still thrives in our world. Self-proclaimed atheists who nominally denounce religion but still cling to every other form of superstition and ignorance.

[Elena]

This thread is getting....unpleasant...

 

Can't we all just smile before someone comes and blows up this Thread just like Anders did the Chantry? 

 

WHO WANTS COOOKIES?!!!!

 

Debate is fun, but there are lines, remember that. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1. The same source which you agree is ambiguous says the missionaries were refused so the Chantry sent in Templars, I can equally conclude that the Chantry sending in the Templars because the Elves sent away the missionaries was seen as an invasion by the Elves so they retaliated by attacking Red Crossing, so it was the Chantry that started the war.

 

2. No I don't think it is ok to persecute a minority and think that the Dwarves were in the wrong, but at least they allowed an other religion in there lands and allowed him to preach and try to convert there people, which is more then the Chantry does they refuse any other religions in their lands and they will kill their own people who do convert to different religions.

 

3. The Chantry kill Old God followers, Dragon Cult followers, they slaughtered the Qunari converts in Rivain because they had converted and buried them in mass graves. they annulled the Circle in Rivain because the mages their were seers and practiced their own religion.

 

4. The Chantry has declared exulted marches against Tevinter because they laughed at a divines death not because of blood magic. they slaughtered the Qunari converts in Rivain and also annulled their circle because they followed a different religion. The Chantry see non Humans as lesser and believe that the chant of light must be spread to all people and races for the Maker to return so they are just like the Qunari in wanting everyone to convert even if they have to use force.

 

I would also say the Chantry are just like Tevinter, both allow slavery in their lands, both have a Divine, they both see and treat the Elves the same, they both declared war on the Elves and after beating them destroyed their culture and religions wiped out their citys and enslaved their people.

 

5. The Elves are treated just as bad as the castless if not worse. The castless have a chance to marry an other caste who would then take their whole family in to their family and some of the children born to that couple get the new caste, it is still wrong but a lot better then what the city elves have.

 

6. I don't know about many of the rights of annulment but all are wrong the murder of every man woman and child in a circle because some others did something the Templars don't like is disgusting and how people can justify it is beyond me. How is the Seers of Rivain being a different religion grounds to murder every member of a circle. How is the murder of children and mages that are the only ones actually preventing demons from escaping the Fereldan circle justified.

 

7. It was the Tevinter mages who broke the main Qunari advance before the exulted march was called and they were a match for the Qunari advanced weapons, the Chantry also keeps the circles to use against Tevinter mages as well.

 

1. You are inferring too many specific details from too little information.

 

2. In places with sizable non Andrastian populations they are able to coexist, like Rivain. Or how Ferelden trades with the Chasind.

 

3. That's not what I was asking. I was asking you to name an example of the Chantry executing foreign missionaries. But also, Dragon Cultists? The same people who choose to live away from society to worship an inhernetly destructive animal and are all so singularlly violent that they never let themselves be taken alive? Those are the people you think the Chantry is unfairly persecuting?

 

4. They launched an Exalted March on Tevinter because the Imperial Chantry rebelled against the Divine's authority. The slaughter of the Qunari converts after the Llomerryn Accord wasn't just about having a different religion because Rivaini nationalists also participated.Most of Rivain are pantheists and te Rivain Chantry tolerates them all. The Annulment in Dairsmiud occured after the Chantry hierarchy had disintegrated. The Chantry doctrine does not see non humans as inferior. And they do not make a practice of spreading their religion by war.

 

And again. The Chantry does not allow slavery. The Chantry did NOT enslaves the elves. Narrator Duncan says "although they have been free for many generations" in the City Elf Intro. The City Elf Codex on alienages says they are not enslaved. There is also an elf in the Denerim Alienage that was an actual Tevinter slave that is much happier in the alienage (the shopkeeper). City Elves we've seen are very different from Tevinter slaves we've seen like Fenris and Orana.

 

5. Definitely not. Elves can find rare ways to better their lives too: like Briala being the Empress' lover and spymaster. And most of their lives much much better than castless. Castless are legally prohibited from working. That's why they are forced to become criminals or beggars. They live in uninhabited slums in the abandoned corner of the city. City Elves live in actual houses and are and allowed to work. Sigrun's life as a castless was so poor that she thought an alienage was rather nice. City Elves are probably closer to the Servant Caste.

 

6. You can't know that for every case. They are intended to be invoked when a Cirlce is beyond redemption. Sometimes a Cirlce can become overrun by demons.

 

7. No, the Qunari crushed the Imperium in their initial blitzkrieg and occupied every Tevinter city except Minrathous within a single decade. The Qunari were fighting the Free Marches before the rebellion in Tevinter.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

5. The elves are treated worse than the castless? They really aren't. You should play the origins again. Dalish are not treated as "vermin." Occasionally they even trade with human settlements. They are chased off if they stay near human habitations for too long but the templars or any rabble usually leave them alone if they leave the area. City Elves have it worse, but Castless are the only ones who have live a mostly miserable existence. City Elves are less poor, have more rights and are able to find more joy in thier day to day lives than Castless. Even the human nobles have less contempt for them than the nobles in the Assembly of Orzammar have for the castless, when Loghain was selling them into slavery it was a scandal because they were still Ferelden citizens.

Guess someone should tell Fiona she imagined the whole "forced to be a child sex slave who was raped by an Orlesian nobleman" then.

[RobRam10]

The Imperial Chantry is the only religion Thedas needs.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Guess someone should tell Fiona she imagined the whole "forced to be a child sex slave who was raped by an Orlesian nobleman" then.

 

That example is atypical. Castless, by and large, easily have it worse than city elves .

[fhs33721]

That example is atypical. Castless, by and large, easily have it worse than city elves .

What? So elven woman haven't been regulary abducted, raped and in some cases killed by Vaughn and his men? Howe didn't burn down parts of the alienage when the elves decided to do something about that for once (Including the Orphanage where the inhabitants sure as hell didn't participate in the riots)? And no one batted a eye on any of that things.

In Krikwall a murdered got away with torturing elven chidren to death (granted he had relatives in high places) and a guards man raped a elven woman and the guard did nothing about it.

Don't ger me wrong. I agree that castless dwarves have it worse. But to say they have it worse easily is jut exaggerated. They have it sightly worse but city elves are close seconds. In addition a castless dwarf could just leave Orzammar for the surface, where he would immidealtely be more respected than most elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What? So elven woman haven't been regulary abducted, raped and in some cases killed by Vaughn and his men? Howe didn't burn down parts of the alienage when the elves decided to do something about that for once (Including the Orphanage where the inhabitants sure as hell didn't participate in the riots)? And no one batted a eye on any of that things.

In Krikwall a murdered got away with torturing elven chidren to death (granted he had relatives in high places) and a guards man raped a elven woman and the guard did nothing about it.

Don't ger me wrong. I agree that castless dwarves have it worse. But to say they have it worse easily is jut exaggerated. They have it sightly worse but city elves are close seconds. In addition a castless dwarf could just leave Orzammar for the surface, where he would immidealtely be more respected than most elves.

Yeah. That's one reason why I say they are equal. While the Casteless Dwarves are treated terribly, they can simply leave and be treated better by everyone on the surface. The City Elves have no such option since the closest to it is the Dalish who are still mistreated. 

[ianvillan]

What? So elven woman haven't been regulary abducted, raped and in some cases killed by Vaughn and his men? Howe didn't burn down parts of the alienage when the elves decided to do something about that for once (Including the Orphanage where the inhabitants sure as hell didn't participate in the riots)? And no one batted a eye on any of that things.

In Krikwall a murdered got away with torturing elven chidren to death (granted he had relatives in high places) and a guards man raped a elven woman and the guard did nothing about it.

Don't ger me wrong. I agree that castless dwarves have it worse. But to say they have it worse easily is jut exaggerated. They have it sightly worse but city elves are close seconds. In addition a castless dwarf could just leave Orzammar for the surface, where he would immidealtely be more respected than most elves.

 

Don't forget the nobles of Orlais who view the Elves as prey animals with bestial intelligence and anyone who sleeps with them is lying with an animal.

Considering how much interconnected and how much influence Orlais and the Chantry have with each other we can get what the Chantey views might be towards Elves.

[ianvillan]

Yeah. That's one reason why I say they are equal. While the Casteless Dwarves are treated terribly, they can simply leave and be treated better by everyone on the surface. The City Elves have no such option since the closest to it is the Dalish who are still mistreated. 

 

Which is a reason why a lot of Elves convert to the Qun and try to join the Qunari.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't forget the nobles of Orlais who view the Elves as prey animals with bestial intelligence and anyone who sleeps with them is lying with an animal.

Considering how much interconnected and how much influence Orlais and the Chantry have with each other we can get what the Chantey views might be towards Elves.

Actually, the Chantry is one of the only organizations to be nice, or nicer at least, to them. They still treat the weddings as valid, elves are allowed to become priestesses/priests, Templars, etc.

[DRTJR]

So long as my Elf is not forced to be anti-chantry or pro-creators I do not care.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Im not sure why people are surprised that Orlais would dislike elves, they did nearly conquer their nation over some missionaries daring to enter the dales & they also just watched human towns burn without helping during the 2nd blight.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What? So elven woman haven't been regulary abducted, raped and in some cases killed by Vaughn and his men? Howe didn't burn down parts of the alienage when the elves decided to do something about that for once (Including the Orphanage where the inhabitants sure as hell didn't participate in the riots)? And no one batted a eye on any of that things.

In Krikwall a murdered got away with torturing elven chidren to death (granted he had relatives in high places) and a guards man raped a elven woman and the guard did nothing about it.

Don't ger me wrong. I agree that castless dwarves have it worse. But to say they have it worse easily is jut exaggerated. They have it sightly worse but city elves are close seconds. In addition a castless dwarf could just leave Orzammar for the surface, where he would immidealtely be more respected than most elves.

 

You don't know that elven women have been regularly abducted and raped by people like Vaughn. Valendrian mentions that he personally has an exceptionally "rapey" reputation. Terrible things can and do happen to the City Elves, but that doesn't mean they happen all the time. The thing is, Vaughn and Keldor and those guards are able to get away with doing terrible things to elves is because they of the corruption in the guards or the nepotism from powerful relatives made them able to act above the law. If the same thing happened in Orzammar, they wouldn't even need any of that. Castless are literally nothing to them. They don't need to skirt around the law, there is no law protecting them.

 

If you count the Castless as having it better by being able to leave Dustown, then City Elves can leave and find the Dalish. Any contempt the Dalish might have isn't even remotely on the same level the humans tend to have for them.

 

Frankly, I thought the tone of both origins made this all pretty clear. The City Elf Origin is about a spoiled sadistic noble's son interrupting a joyous day. For the castless, even having such a joyous day is improbable.

[fhs33721]

You don't know that elven women have been regularly abducted and raped by people like Vaughn. Valendrian mentions that he personally has an exceptionally "rapey" reputation. Terrible things can and do happen to the City Elves, but that doesn't mean they happen all the time. The thing is, Vaughn and Keldor and those guards are able to get away with doing terrible things to elves is because they of the corruption in the guards or the nepotism from powerful relatives made them able to act above the law. If the same thing happened in Orzammar, they wouldn't even need any of that. Castless are literally nothing to them. They don't need to skirt around the law, there is no law protecting them.

 

If you count the Castless as having it better by being able to leave Dustown, then City Elves can leave and find the Dalish. Any contempt the Dalish might have isn't even remotely on the same level the humans tend to have for them.

 

Frankly, I thought the tone of both origins made this all pretty clear. The City Elf Origin is about a spoiled sadistic noble's son interrupting a joyous day. For the castless, even having such a joyous day is improbable.

One doesn't get a repey reputation for no reason in the most cases. And doesn't the fact that he aducts a female City elf and her friends kind of prove that his reputation is justified.

Also I don't see there being no laws for the castless dwarfs as much worse than there being laws for the elves but everyone ingoring them becaue nobody cares about elves.

 

Also leaving for the Dalish is waaaay harder to do than leaving dusttown. First of all the Dalish are nomads that wander the woods and avoid human settlements most of the time. A city elf would have to search and find a clan first. In the wilderness where there are bears and wolves and if youre especially lucky demons and Sylvains and walking corpses. And since the Dalish don't usually leave their movement plans lying around in Alienages the chances of finding a clan are slim.

Then there is the chance that the Dalish simply shoot you whe you approach.

In the Dalish origin one dalish mentions that he almost shot Pol because he thought Pol was a human.

 

A castless only has to leave Orzammar and ask someone where the nearest human settlement is. The advantage of those is that it's easy to find them. Granted they could still get assaulted by bandits on the way, but the same can happen to elves on the road.

 

Again I still agree that castless dwarfs have it worse in general. But not that much worse as you make it out to be.

[In Exile]

I don't want to wade into this giant debate, but I should point out that apparently the exalted march called against the Dales didn't attract any nations to Orlais cause - it just meant throwing templar support behind the Orlesians. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

One doesn't get a repey reputation for no reason in the most cases. And doesn't the fact that he aducts a female City elf and her friends kind of prove that his reputation is justified.

Also I don't see there being no laws for the castless dwarfs as much worse than there being laws for the elves but everyone ingoring them becaue nobody cares about elves.

 

My point was that Vaughn had an exceptionally bad reputation even among his noble peers. It didn't apply to alienages everywhere.

 

 

I don't want to wade into this giant debate, but I should point out that apparently the exalted march called against the Dales didn't attract any nations to Orlais cause - it just meant throwing templar support behind the Orlesians. 

 

Well, presumably templars, mages and any more people among the Orlesian faithful who answered the Divine's call to battle, but yes.

[In Exile]

Well, presumably Templars, mages and any more people among the Orlesian faithful who answered the Divine's call to battle, but yes.

 

Possibly. I'm not sure that the Circle existed at the time. If it did, one imagines it had to be instrumental because the Dales didn't shackle their mages. Mobile artillery makes quite a big difference in the war. It's the best way to explain the incredible reversal of fortune for the Dales, who up to that point had been cleaving a bloody path through Orlais to Val Royeaux. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Circle System was first organized in the Divine Age. And think it is said somewhere Drakon utilized the mages to great effect during the Second Blight so I believe they were available in war for the Chantry at the time. Plus, most of the lore they took from the Fall of the Dales apparently ended up in the Circle libraries.

[Vilegrim]

"Look! It's that anti-Andrastian fellow, torturing my children and putting my neighbors to the sword and forcing me to give up my faith! I'm terrified for my life, so he must be right!

 

Oh, well! Rationality and science for all!"

 

 

 

 

Old Gods for all thank you very much.  Razikale and Lusacan at least are still around, and need worshippers!  Lets have some honesty in our atrocity.