258 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

Grunt is built with Reaper tech.

EDI is built with Reaper tech.

[JasonShepard]

Based on the Krogan history and Salarian simulations, the Krogan always go to war and expand due to depleting resources and their thirsts for battle. The Krogan are pure glutton's.

 

I dispute the idea that you can accurately predict how an entire race will behave via a simulation. This was pretty much Maelon's entire point in ME2 - there are FAR too many variables. I also dispute the idea that you can characterise an entire race - every krogan is different. Compare Grunt, Wreav, Charr, Wrex, and Uvenk.

 

Like Psychevore, I also disagree with the idea that 'anything Reaper leads to indoctrination'.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

After reading the codex and connecting them to Mass Effect 3 game would it make sense to not cure the Genophage and stop legion from uploading the reaper code. Based on the Krogan history and Salarian simulations, the Krogan always go to war and expand due to depleting resources and their thirsts for battle. The Krogan are pure glutton's. As for the Geth, even Legion, require the reapers for independence (reaper code). As we all know anything reaper leads to indoctrination or in this case more heretics. If theres peace between the geth and quarians, this puts the quarians at risk of reaper indoctrination. Sure we could allow peace between the geth and quarian then choose the destroy ending an blow all the geth up but the quarians that have already been affected by reaper tech can cause problems. Im curious as to know what you guys would do in these two situations. Let me know what you think.  

 

The Salarian simulations could not cover for every variable in regards to that choice, and more than likely did not cover all the variables that they could look into. They probably have one of the most notable prejudice against the Krogan and tend to go off half cocked if it looks like the Krogan could actually see something good happen for them. The modified Genophage was done out of fear and not out of necessity. If it took 1k-1500 years for them to begin adapting to it, it would have taken just as long or longer to reach a point where it needed updating. Of course in that span of time, the Krogan could be an entirely different race than what they were in the ME series as we see them and there would still be no need for the modification in the first place.

 

As for the idea that Reaper = Indoctrination. I point you to how the Normandy crew was just fine seeing as EDI was made with Reaper tech. Grunt was made with Collector/Reaper tech. Shepard likely has some Reaper tech in him for his cybernetics. That logic doesnt hold water from the start pretty much.

 

Legion's rapid change from wanting to be share everything and know everything together to independent thought, I believe so nothing to actually prove this, came from seeing what happened when their Dyson Sphere was destroyed. He saw a substantial loss in their perceptions and intelligence and the consequences that came from it. In having the Reaper Code Fragment, Legion saw that he had a means of bringing the Geth to another means of personal advancement that they could follow that would not involve them fully isolating themselves from the galaxy. It came down to debating if it was something he should do or not, since Legion more or less held the fate of the Geth in his hands with the choice in using the Reaper code or not to upgrade the Geth to full AI status. The debate happened to lead to Legion finding his own individuality and give that last push towards making the upgrade.

[LadyJaneGrey]

On the Krogan: as Jason says, individuals vary; and no one deserves to be sterilized based on their ancestors' actions. Still, to protect the other races from retaliation, I assumed the Council races would limit the number of military starcraft. That way they still could rebuild, travel, and colonize granted planets without the ability to invade others.

On the geth: their storyline and thinking processes changed so much between the second and third game it's hard to decide on a concrete plan. If they are like ME2's Legion (those who refused the reapers offer and are content being alien) I would keep channels of communication open between they and the Council races but not try o force integration. There would always be some technology shy organic who would start something.

[themikefest]

I don't cure the genophage.

 

 I choose the Quarians the majority of the time.

[justafan]

When facing the overwhelming numbers of the reapers, a fast reproducing and maturing species is just what the galaxy needs at the time.  I therefore cure the genophage (I operate under the assumption that Shepard believes the war could go on for centuries).

 

As for the Geth and reaper code.  My rule of thumb is that reaper code is bad juju.  There are certainly exceptions, as is the case of EDI, and the Rachni queen, but in the latter case, without metagaming I would kill the queen every time because the circumstances are far too suspicious.  The same goes for the Geth, thanks to knowing the outcome, I make peace wherever possible, but if I did not know they wouldn't turn, I would let them be destroyed every time.  Allowing a code that up until that very moment made all Geth reaper slaves to be distributed and potentially kill a known ally is far to great of a risk for a species I have had so little contact with outside of their frequent attempts to kill me.

 

EDI gets my trust because I have worked with her over an extended period of time, and she has proven loyal time and time again when she could have easily betrayed me.

[JasonShepard]

Allowing a code that up until that very moment made all Geth reaper slaves

 

Except for Legion, who has been safely operating with Reaper code for a while by that point. I do agree that uploading Reaper code feels like a bad idea, but I trust Legion's knowledge of the code more than I trust my own feelings.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Krogan are demilitarized; while I think a centuries-long adjustment period would be needed after the cure during which they would be quarantined to whichever systems are allotted to them, I see them as a controllable threat so long as they are not a spacefaring power.

After what happened with the IFF, I'd trust the Reaper code about as far as I can throw Heretic Station. I wish peace without the upload were possible (indeed, I wish we could intercede in that mess before it boiled over instead of uselessly pacing around under house arrest for six months), but it's not an option. More often than not I side with the Quarians. I'll make peace if I metagame. I've never sided with the Geth and suspect I never will.

[Livi14]

I cured the genophage. I don't trust Wrex on his own. But with Eve steering him I do. Together, I absolutely believe they will chart a better, brighter future for the krogan.

I felt that it was better to save the geth over the quarians. The geth are a more valued war asset, Legion offered to help you with the Crucible and I couldn't side with a race that attempted to commit total genocide against a non-aggressor.

[Sir DeLoria]

I couldn't side with a race that attempted to commit total genocide against a non-aggressor.

Most...resist...urge...to point out...irony...

Ugh, I can't. The Geth commited genocide on the Quarians, they are in no way better, worse if anything because it wasn't the fault of the entire Quarian species but only a hand full of people. The Geth collective mind makes them all at least partially responsible however. Sparing the miserable 1% surviving population and instead drving them from their homes still makes it a genocide.

The Quarians also help with the Crucible and their war assetes are as vital, so it really just comes down to whom you like more.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Most...resist...urge...to point out...irony...

Ugh, I can't. The Geth commited genocide on the Quarians, they are in no way better, worse if anything because it wasn't the fault of the entire Quarian species but only a hand full of people. The Geth collective mind makes them all at least partially responsible however. Sparing the miserable 1% surviving population and instead drving them from their homes still makes it a genocide.

The Quarians also help with the Crucible and their war assetes are as vital, so it really just comes down to whom you like more.

 

And the Geth did so mostly out of ignorance of their actions and self defense. Doesnt make them better, but the point needs to be made that the Quarians have attempted TWICE to wipe out the Geth with 0 provocation while the one time the Geth made the attempt, it was because their lives were on the line.

[justafan]

And the Geth did so mostly out of ignorance of their actions and self defense. Doesnt make them better, but the point needs to be made that the Quarians have attempted TWICE to wipe out the Geth with 0 provocation while the one time the Geth made the attempt, it was because their lives were on the line.

 

I think allowing a significant portion of their population to attempt the complete genocide of all organic species counts as provocation...

 

As far as everyone outside the SR2 knows, the heretics and orthodox Geth are one and the same, and the Geth in the veil do nothing to try to disprove this.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I think allowing a significant portion of their population to attempt the complete genocide of all organic species counts as provocation...

 

As far as everyone outside the SR2 knows, the heretics and orthodox Geth are one and the same, and the Geth in the veil do nothing to try to disprove this.

 

What happened 300 years in the past doesnt give justification towards something in the modern day. The Quarians were wrong to try and shut down the Geth in the past for asking a bloody question (This should have been expected since they were skirting around with AI research), and they definitely were not justified to in trying again.

[Sir DeLoria]

And the Geth did so mostly out of ignorance of their actions and self defense. Doesnt make them better, but the point needs to be made that the Quarians have attempted TWICE to wipe out the Geth with 0 provocation while the one time the Geth made the attempt, it was because their lives were on the line.

Point is:

1. The Quarians aren't one big entity, decisions made by the leadership don't always reflect common opinion and you can't blame the entire species.
2. The Geths' resolute refusal of any diplomacy and hostility to the outside world makes the aggression towards them understandable.

[justafan]

What happened 300 years in the past doesnt give justification towards something in the modern day. The Quarians were wrong to try and shut down the Geth in the past for asking a bloody question (This should have been expected since they were skirting around with AI research), and they definitely were not justified to in trying again.

 

I'm talking about the heretics and sovereign.  The Geth knew what the Heretics wanted to do and did nothing.  If you say it's OK for the Geth to nearly exterminate the entire Quarian species because a few in the military and government tried to destroy them, why is it not OK for the Quarians to try to destroy the Geth 300 years later after the Citadel attack where the Geth tried to wipe out not only the Quarians, but all organic life?  

 

And in the later case, as far as anyone knew, the actions of the Heretics constituted the action of all Geth, something the orthodox Geth did nothing to try to disprove.

[Sir DeLoria]

What happened 300 years in the past doesnt give justification towards something in the modern day. The Quarians were wrong to try and shut down the Geth in the past for asking a bloody question (This should have been expected since they were skirting around with AI research), and they definitely were not justified to in trying again.

But both situations were very different, yes the first was an attempt at shutting the Geth off, they had their reasons(Council law, possible rebellion etc.) and maybe they weren't justified. The second situation was a full frontal and fair war fought against an enemy with a far greater fighting force, which the Quarians would've won without Reaper intervention.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

But both situations were very different, yes the first was an attempt at shutting the Geth off, they had their reasons(Council law, possible rebellion etc.) and maybe they weren't justified. The second situation was a full frontal and fair war fought against an enemy with a far greater fighting force, which the Quarians would've won without Reaper intervention.

 

And would have been an unprovoked Genocide as the Geth had been staying to their system without any concern for the rest of the galaxy around them. That isnt a war, and if the Quarians had attacked any other race like they had the Geth, wouldnt have a damn thing left to their names for their effort.

[DeinonSlayer]

Point is:

1. The Quarians aren't one big entity, decisions made by the leadership don't always reflect common opinion and you can't blame the entire species.
2. The Geths' resolute refusal of any diplomacy and hostility to the outside world makes the aggression towards them understandable.

Occupying the only planet the Quarians are capable of surviving on, refusing all communication and killing anyone who enters their space isn't the best starting point for negotiations. Through their own behavior over the last three centuries, the Geth have given no reason whatsoever for others to believe they can be reasoned with.

The Quarians' logistical situation and dependency on outside infrastructure for basic survival prevented them from assisting the Reaper war effort so long as their entire civilian populace is on board - it forces them to stay lumped together in a single massed fleet to keep everyone fed, and with their cargo holds physically full of civilian housing, those ships can't split up and transport war materiel as Hackett needs.

They could have tried to hide in space, forget about helping fight the Reapers entirely (which would have next to no chance of succeeding, but that's another essay). Hiding was Admiral Koris' stated alternative to war with the Geth. They instead tried to take Rannoch back (again, because they had no reason to believe negotiation would succeed) so as to enable themselves to commit every resource at their disposal to the fight with the Reapers.


^^^ Also this.

[Sir DeLoria]

And would have been an unprovoked Genocide as the Geth had been staying to their system without any concern for the rest of the galaxy around them. That isnt a war, and if the Quarians had attacked any other race like they had the Geth, wouldnt have a damn thing left to their names for their effort.

Of course it's a war lol, what else should it be if two huge, well prepared armed forces clash for the control of a planet vital to both parties? Wether the Geth provoked or not is irrelevant and there are good arguments that they did(hey, they destroyed any ship close to their space, refused contact and set the Heretics loose on the galaxy).

The Geth were absolutely prepared for an invasion, so they weren't defenseless in the slightest.

I agree with Deinon otherwise.

[Excella Gionne]

And they said EDI was Reaper tech....The code can't indoctrinate, the Geth only accepted it out of survival. Legion said their freedom is an acceptable trade. I don't want to get into the whole Legion mumbo-jumbo!

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Of course it's a war lol, what else should it be if two huge, well prepared armed forces clash for the control of a planet vital to both parties? Wether the Geth provoked or not is irrelevant and there are good arguments that they did(hey, they destroyed any ship close to their space, refused contact and set the Heretics loose on the galaxy).

The Geth were absolutely prepared for an invasion, so they weren't defenseless in the slightest.

I agree with Deinon otherwise.

 

They were rendered defenseless against the Migrant Fleet with that new tech the Quarians developed. The Geth couldnt have fought back properly if they tried and the only reason they didnt get wiped out then was cause of Reaper interference. 

 

Also you are claiming the set the Hieratics on the galaxy? They did no such thing. What you are implying is that the True Geth sent them out with the intention of causing trouble, which is not the case.

 

You have an exceedingly empty argument at this point. I'd stop now if I were you.

[DeinonSlayer]

They were rendered defenseless against the Migrant Fleet with that new tech the Quarians developed. The Geth couldnt have fought back properly if they tried and the only reason they didnt get wiped out then was cause of Reaper interference. 
 
Also you are claiming the set the Hieratics on the galaxy? They did no such thing. What you are implying is that the True Geth sent them out with the intention of causing trouble, which is not the case.
 
You have an exceedingly empty argument at this point. I'd stop now if I were you.

They did let the Heretics leave, knowing their intentions, and ignored their continuing attacks on organics for two years following Sovereign's attack on the Citadel, without so much as sending a message through the extranet denying affiliation with them.

[von uber]

The only evidence that the Geth were wiped out due to 'asking a question' is from the one sided information supplied by the Geth in an attempt to win Shepard's sympathy and gain her help.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

They did let the Heretics leave, knowing their intentions, and ignored their continuing attacks on organics for two years following Sovereign's attack on the Citadel, without so much as sending a message through the extranet denying affiliation with them.

 

And I fail to see how its there fault for not interfering with a group that was parted with under amicable terms due to their inability to come to a consensus, or how its their fault for not sending out a message to warn the galaxy at large when they were well aware that no one but the True Geth would be able to distinguish between the two.

 

I wonder if you fail to see exactly what is wrong with this argument of yours now.