258 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Though I seriously question the value of discussing the topic with you, Shodiswe, one thing needs to be acknowledged. "The Quarians" are not a singularity, not then and not now. Unlike Geth, they do not reach consensus and act as a single body. So when you go on and on about "the Quarians" wanting to enact a total extinction on the Geth, you're talking about a faction which had both the means and the desire to make the attempt.

We don't even know if they had a single unified government back then. We know what their government looks like on the Fleet, but it tells us nothing of their structure pre-war; all we know is that their "clans" pre-dated the war (comparable to nation-states?). All we can go on is headcanon.

Think if something localized like Tiannenman Square had erupted into something which rapidly roped in other nations where 99% of the human race was ultimately killed off, or some UN resolution which next to nobody has any say in or normally pays any attention to doing the same.

Tali tells us the order to terminate the Geth was timed and transmitted across their whole world and all their colonies. Their plan was to make it so fast that the Geth wouldn't get a chance to react or understand what was going on, and that the few left would be easy to trackdown and terminate. Therefor the governing forces that ordered it represented all the Quarians. Even if a few might have had objections as Legion shows us. The few Quarians who objected seemed very impopular with the authorities and the Quarians of "today" has struk them out of their records.
I guess that's similar to how they struk any "traitor" who get exiled from the flotilla from the records, like if they never existed. Conform or you don't exist.

I really can't see how the government form matters in this case. If the Quarians edknowledge it and acts as ordered, then they edknowledge it.
If they hadn't accepted the order then nothing would have happend. It's also likely that if it had just been a few percent of the population that had gone to war with the geth that the killign would have stopped with thier deaths.

It seems you're mostly speculating on what you would have prefered the Quarians to act like or be like, and then you make it headcannon.
All Quarians were ordered to deactivate and/or turn over their Geth, and since the deactivation function had been disabled by the Geth because they didn't want to die, people would have to resort to more drastic methods of killing the Geth, or turning them over, or killing them.

[Sentinel Defender]

EDIT: Something else I just thought of - the "inspirational" moment when the agricultural unit picked up his sniper rifle to take the "first" shot? The Geth units they were protecting would have been networked to that unit and contributed the brainpower to make the decision and take that action in the first place. Unnetworked, that same unit would have been non-sentient. It wasn't standing on its own; it was the hardware that the local consensus could use to that end.

Wait are you adhering to the lore about the Geth being software and how they have the ability to just transfer themselves to new bodies with enough processing power? I was under the assumption from shodiswe that the Quarians killed "millions" of Geth. I remember a description from a Geth world saying that they just used "zerg" rush tactics to overwhelm the Quarians and platform casualties were not a concern to them.

[shodiswe]

If they are killed before they get a chance to transfer or there isn't a place nearby to transfer to, then surely they would die.

One playform that's already full to the brim of Geth can't accept more Geth. A server that's full, would be full. If the Server is destroyed then what?

Apparently Billions of Geth died and they lost a lot of intellectual power when the sphere was attacked. That's what they say in-game.

Whatever.

[Sentinel Defender]

If they are killed before they get a chance to transfer or there isn't a place nearby to transfer to, then surely they would die.

One playform that's already full to the brim of Geth can't accept more Geth. A server that's full, would be full. If the Server is destroyed then what?

Apparently Billions of Geth died and they lost a lot of intellectual power when the sphere was attacked. That's what they say in-game.

Whatever.

 

So a single geth program that has about as much intelligence as a single brain cell is worth as much as a fully sentient being. Yep that sounds reasonable. You are talking as if each program is a fully aware individual which is obviously not the case. It takes hundreds of programs to give a platform the intelligence of an animal. 

[DeinonSlayer]

That's why I brought up the UN example. Fact is we don't know the exact structure; it's the realm of headcanon.

I'd recommend re-reading the relevant paragraphs in Revelation, the codex entry (distinct from the map description) of Haestrom, the map description of Adas, and the codex entry on Geth Culture, Shodiswe. The Geth pressed the offensive after absorbing the initial hits, and they kept on the offensive until the Quarians were driven off or killed off of every world in their possession. They didn't "self-defense" their way through entire populations which unilaterally attacked them, they launched offensives on world after world and purged them of their inhabitants.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

I think ImaginaryMatter was right. They were enacting their "no organics" policy which would stay in effect for the next three hundred years - if you didn't have the means to leave, well... one more for the pile.

[Ryriena]

Not you in particular. I mean't that seen I have seen arguments that say that the Geth let the Quarians go out of mercy just because they saw a hologram. If I remember correctly Legion states that the they let them go because they were no longer threats. I actually had someone say to me that uploading the code is justified because it was "paragon" decision which it actually isn't. Just so many facepalm worthy arguments that portray the Geth as innocent little wall-e bots.

Honestly this topic has been talked about enough and I no longer feel that it worth my time to add to it. If the Geth supporters want to disintegrate themselves to save their precious flashlight heads let them or they can prove themselves to be hypocrites and choose destroy. In my opinion saving the Geth is something that is more punishing than rewarding and is the morally wrong choice to me.

Wow! That was their argument face palms do not get me wrong the Geth did stuff wrong as well during the war. To me, killing them is morally wrong but also turning them into bloody folder to justify the ME3 train wreck ending.

For me, it's like giving a child a gun it's one of those ideas that looks good on paper ideas. However, it would lead to that child's death.

[Obadiah]

There comes a point where it becomes an extermination. Allowing less than 1% of the population to escape is not showing mercy. It was indecision. When is enough enough? How many Quarians did they have to exterminate to prove their point? They kept killing and killing. If those quarians had remained on Rannoch there would be no Quarians. The Geth's genocide of the species would have been total. 
...

The Geth are machines that don't have emotions, so all of their actions are logical rationalizations. I like that people keep taking issue with players that sympathize with the Geth by saying those players mis-attributed some moral reason of "mercy" to the Geth actions at the end of the war, then turn around and couch their view of Geth actions during the war in an immoral manner of "extermination" and "Genocide".

[ImaginaryMatter]

More like they handwaved that particular restriction in the name of Rule of Cool.

 

And they didn't need to. Given that the Sol system is only about three days away from Arcturus by FTL, what would make more sense than using the Charon Relay would be having the entire fleet gather in Arcturus and make the flight to Sol via FTL so they can all arrive at the same time.

 

I also think it would be needed or else the Reapers could line up near the Relay and shoot down the Victory Fleet as they jumped through the Relay in handfuls.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nihlus was a plot progression tool...

 

He is cool though and he did carry the responsibility of being the first alien Shepard the player sees. I think he did a pretty good job of setting the Spectres and Turians up as being awesome, even though he died too young.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

There comes a point where it becomes an extermination. Allowing less than 1% of the population to escape is not showing mercy. It was indecision. When is enough enough? How many Quarians did they have to exterminate to prove their point? They kept killing and killing. If those quarians had remained on Rannoch there would be no Quarians. The Geth's genocide of the species would have been total. 

 

And in your second paragraph, the only time it is smart to pick a fight is if you know you have a sure win. Look at history.

 

But I see this is typical with Geth lovers. You cannot argue logic with them. They are so invested in the perfection of the Geth and the innocent victim status of the Geth that they cannot possibly see that the Geth were wrong.

 

...

 

I guess Quarian supporters dont know how to read? /sarcasm

 

I said the Geth stopped their push against the Quarians out of IGNORANCE. They did not know the effects of what killing off an entire races would do, therefore, allowed the surviving Quarians to get away.

[shodiswe]

That's why I brought up the UN example. Fact is we don't know the exact structure; it's the realm of headcanon.

I'd recommend re-reading the relevant paragraphs in Revelation, the codex entry (distinct from the map description) of Haestrom, the map description of Adas, and the codex entry on Geth Culture, Shodiswe. The Geth pressed the offensive after absorbing the initial hits, and they kept on the offensive until the Quarians were driven off or killed off of every world in their possession. They didn't "self-defense" their way through entire populations which unilaterally attacked them, they launched offensives on world after world and purged them of their inhabitants.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

I think ImaginaryMatter was right. They were enacting their "no organics" policy which would stay in effect for the next three hundred years - if you didn't have the means to leave, well... one more for the pile.

The Quarian genocide on the Geth wouldn't even have been or seemed like Selfdefence since they initiated hostilities. It's never been said that the Quarians atempted peace on a government level in those 300 years. Maybe they could have stopped it if they had atempted to stop this war that they couldn't win. But they never gave up on beliving in a victory it would seem.
Even when they left Rannoch it seemed more like a strategic retreat and they were aplanning to be comming back.

As for how each and everyone died, there were likely different way people could have died on. We also don't know what happend, it's all headcannon, in the heads of who ever immagines what happend. I'm actualy thinking a Morning war game would be nice.

[DeinonSlayer]

I also think it would be needed or else the Reapers could line up near the Relay and shoot down the Victory Fleet as they jumped through the Relay in handfuls.

The Victory Fleet wouldn't even be able to coverge at Arcturus without using a relay to get there. Why the Reapers didn't lock down the system, I don't know.

[Sentinel Defender]

Wow! That was their argument face palms do not get me wrong the Geth did stuff wrong as well during the war. To me, killing them is morally wrong but also turning them into bloody folder to justify the ME3 train wreck ending.

 

The more reasonable Geth supporters are the ones who can admit the Geth are not entirely innocent. Unlike a certain shodiswe. I admit the Quarians made several stupid mistakes and they paid the price for it. If they had not panicked after the initial question things would have turned out differently. Also if the Geth didn't maintain such an aggressive isolationist policy maybe things could have been resolved between the two races before the reaper war. The second conflict was the result of the actions from both races. The Geth still maintained their isolationist policies. The Quarians needed a world because obviously getting caught in space by a reaper with thousands of aging ships isn't a good situation. 

[Obadiah]

Of course. The only reason this Geth/Quarian discussion is taking place is that every time some mentions something sympathetic for the Geth (or just the Geth), the pro-Quarian-Geth-committed-genocide side feels the need to re-educate their misguided interpretation of the whole situation.

[AlanC9]

The Victory Fleet wouldn't even be able to converge at Arcturus without using a relay to get there. Why the Reapers didn't lock down the system, I don't know.

I'm not sure the lore lets you lock down a system.
 

The crucial choice for any attack through mass relays is how to divide the fleet for transit. The accuracy of a relay's mass-projection depends on the mass being moved and how far it’s going. Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers from its intended drop point, in any direction from the relay.

Distance can't be chosen by admirals, but a relay is told how much mass to transit. For example, if told to move a million metric tons of mass, the relay will scan the approach corridor, find four 250,000-ton freighters, and transit them together, maintaining their relative positions.

A commander has the option of moving his fleet as one large, coherent formation that may be wildly off-position, or breaking it up into many smaller formations that will be individually closer to the intended attack point, but could be widely dispersed.

Conservative assault doctrine holds that fleets should be moved en masse, maintaining concentration of force and reducing the chances of collision. The only time it is reasonable to split up a formation is during blockade running.

Millions of kilometers out from the destination puts you outside of any conceivable Reaper firing solution, barring incredibly bad luck

The italed paragraph isn't very well thought out (edit: like most of the space combat lore), since the chosen attack point will almost always be far enough from a relay that accuracy wouldn't matter anyway

[ImaginaryMatter]

That's why I brought up the UN example. Fact is we don't know the exact structure; it's the realm of headcanon.

I'd recommend re-reading the relevant paragraphs in Revelation, the codex entry (distinct from the map description) of Haestrom, the map description of Adas, and the codex entry on Geth Culture, Shodiswe. The Geth pressed the offensive after absorbing the initial hits, and they kept on the offensive until the Quarians were driven off or killed off of every world in their possession. They didn't "self-defense" their way through entire populations which unilaterally attacked them, they launched offensives on world after world and purged them of their inhabitants.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

I think ImaginaryMatter was right. They were enacting their "no organics" policy which would stay in effect for the next three hundred years - if you didn't have the means to leave, well... one more for the pile.

 

This made me think of something else. Surely, Rannoch had more than just Quarians at the time of the Morning War, aliens who served as ambassadors, exchange students, tourists, etc. Whatever happened to those organics? Well, I guess we do know what happened... but I wonder how they reacted to the whole thing.

 

The Victory Fleet wouldn't even be able to coverge at Arcturus without using a relay to get there. Why the Reapers didn't lock down the system, I don't know.

 

It's stuff like that which leads me to my joke theory that the Catalyst is actually just a VI with a superiority complex and all the questionable decisions made by the Reapers happened because the Catalyst, as a VI, couldn't adapt fast enough to the wildly different scenarios the organics were forcing them into.

[DeinonSlayer]

This made me think of something else. Surely, Rannoch had more than just Quarians at the time of the Morning War, aliens who served as ambassadors, exchange students, tourists, etc. Whatever happened to those organics? Well, I guess we do know what happened... but I wonder how they reacted to the whole thing.

There was that one Asari on Illium.

They reacted by posting a fleet on the borders of the Veil, in anticipation that they'd invade further, but when the expected invasion never came the garrison was gradually scaled back.

@Obadiah
When I see people painting the entire situation as though one side is entirely without blame and citing headcanon as evidence, I sometimes feel corrections are in order. Not sure if you were here when Shodiswe was rambling about the Quarians assisting the Collectors in abducting human colonies. I question the productiveness of this entire thread, of course - the only time I ever saw a writer directly comment on the issue on these boards, she said they left it deliberately vague so as to encourage discussion like this. We all fill in the blanks as best we can.

So, how 'bout them Krogan?

[ImaginaryMatter]

What Asari on Illium?

[DeinonSlayer]

What Asari on Illium?

The one you deal with when Shiala asks you about the medical scans; the one who lost her bondmate to the Geth on Rannoch and her two daughters in the attack on the Citadel (we actually met both of them - the receptionist at the embassies and the greeter for the Consort). She's bitter towards aliens in general as a result.

[shodiswe]

This made me think of something else. Surely, Rannoch had more than just Quarians at the time of the Morning War, aliens who served as ambassadors, exchange students, tourists, etc. Whatever happened to those organics? Well, I guess we do know what happened... but I wonder how they reacted to the whole thing.
 
 
It's stuff like that which leads me to my joke theory that the Catalyst is actually just a VI with a superiority complex and all the questionable decisions made by the Reapers happened because the Catalyst, as a VI, couldn't adapt fast enough to the wildly different scenarios the organics were forcing them into.

Given what we're told most organics reached like.... "Oh, It's skynet, quickly get a gun and start shooting!" "It's a machine, we can't argue with a machine! Get a gun!"

Horror books, horror movies about machiens wiping out all life! Get a Gun!
When they thought "Synthetic rebelion" they didn't think "people" they thought "Skynet" or some other popular culture end of the world reference relevant to their culture.
They are not like us, kill them, they are not even alive! Take no pitty!

Unarmed AI arrive at the Citadel asking for an audience with the council. = Shoot the synthetics! I have a feelign there was a lot of irrationality in peoples reactions. People's reaction is determined by how alien their oponent is. The more Alien, the more fear they will feel and display, leading to some kind of percieved selfdefence out of fear.

I'm pretty sure Aliens woudl have been the first to decide to leave when the shooting started, while Quarians were less eager to leave their homes.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Shodiswe
Headcanon ahead here: you posted your theory about Veetor, I've got one about those AI in the Citadel DLC.

They were created by the Asari.

• As we learn in ME1 if we ask Gianna Parasini about Synthetic Insights, the Council occasionally grants certain organizations waivers to research otherwise-illegal artificial intelligence.

• Loki mechs have five fingers. Three hundred years ago, there were only two five-fingered races on the galactic scene - the Asari, and (possibly) the Batarians. Of those, only one has a Council seat, and would thus have any say in who gets those waivers.

Seems to me that the Council loudly denounced the remaining sliver of the Quarian population before the entire galaxy for creating an AI, showed them to the airlock, and quietly exterminated the ones they were themselves making on the side.

I'd argue that the Council ban on artificial intelligence is unjust and needs to be overturned. An AI which is properly "raised" can comfortably fit into galactic society (EDI). One which isn't will not (Geth). That said, it is a valid danger to be recognized - as Jarrahe Station demonstrates, refraining from aggression towards an AI or rogue VI doesn't guarantee your safety any more than it does with a wild animal.

[Sir DeLoria]

Perhaps it's best to not create AIs in the first place. It's not like there is any particular need for them. The Quarians simply made the mistake of upgrading their machines too far.

[Sir DeLoria]

Then turn around and couch their view of Geth actions during the war in an immoral manner of "extermination" and "Genocide".

That's exactly what the Geth did, they commited genocide and you can't deny it. You can only argue if they were intellectually capable enough of realising exactly what they were doing or not.

Of course. The only reason this Geth/Quarian discussion is taking place is that every time some mentions something sympathetic for the Geth (or just the Geth), the pro-Quarian-Geth-committed-genocide side feels the need to re-educate their misguided interpretation of the whole situation.

Not true, both sides can start this debate. Remember Auld Wulf?

[DeinonSlayer]

That's exactly what the Geth did, they commited genocide and you can't deny it. You can only argue if they were intellectually capable enough of realising exactly what they were doing or not.

Not true, both sides can start this debate. Remember Auld Wulf?

They won't acknowledge it's genocide if you're talking to someone who fervently believes the Quarians armed 99% of their population and threw them at the Geth during the Morning War.

[Sir DeLoria]

They won't acknowledge it's genocide if you're talking to someone who fervently believes the Quarians armed 99% of their population and threw them at the Geth during the Morning War (because there were toddlers in the cargo holds of armed civilian ships three hundred years later, and combat in space is of course identical to combat on the ground).

Not just that this is ridiculous, but driving the Quarians off their homeworld and targeting them as a whole is already genocidal.