258 réponses à ce sujet

[Darks1d3]

....The two favorite pastimes on the BSN:  GVQ debates and Liara bashing. To this day, I'm not quite sure which subject is more polarizing. The cycle(s) cannot be broken.

 

In regards to the OP, Deinon and Tsunayoshi pretty much explained my own opinion on the Genophage.

 

As for Legion uploading the Reaper code, I do not like it. While code is not necessarily the same thing as physical tech, I still remain leery of it. Besides, ME3 Legion is not the same Legion that I talked to in ME2. I disliked the Pinocchio complex inherent in Legion's Character in ME3.

[DeinonSlayer]

And I fail to see how its there fault for not interfering with a group that was parted with under amicable terms due to their inability to come to a consensus, or how its their fault for not sending out a message to warn the galaxy at large when they were well aware that no one but the True Geth would be able to distinguish between the two.
 
I wonder if you fail to see exactly what is wrong with this argument of yours now.

If I had a roommate (more like identical twin brother but whatever), and allowed him to leave my apartment with the stated intent of murdering someone, doing nothing to intervene in any way, that would make me either an accessory or an accomplice. If we're talking identical twin brother, how is it a good thing for me to let the entire city think I did it for years on end (all the while allowing him to continue killing)? Even the Batarian Hegemony denied involvement in its terrorist activities.

Put another way, if soldiers from one country (I don't know - say, Russia) occupied government buildings in another country (say, Ukraine), and those soldiers actually weren't affiliated with or endorsed by the Russian government, would you argue that Russia would be under no obligation to dissociate itself with them? Better to let everyone think they endorsed it?

The only evidence that the Geth were wiped out due to 'asking a question' is from the one sided information supplied by the Geth in an attempt to win Shepard's sympathy and gain her help.

True; Legion does demonstrate that he's a pretty habitual liar.

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

[I Tsunayoshi I]

If I had a roommate (more like identical twin brother but whatever), and allowed him to leave my apartment with the stated intent of murdering someone, doing nothing to intervene in any way, that would make me either an accessory or an accomplice. If we're talking identical twin brother, how is it a good thing for me to let the entire city think I did it for years on end (all the while allowing him to continue killing)? Even the Batarian Hegemony denied involvement in its terrorist activities.

Put another way, if soldiers from one country (I don't know - say, Russia) occupied government buildings in another country (say, Ukraine), and those soldiers actually weren't affiliated with or endorsed by the Russian government, would you argue that Russia would be under no obligation to dissociate itself with them? Better to let everyone think they endorsed it?

 

One, the odds of being put in jail due to just having the knowledge and doing nothing are slim, as only specific professions can be held accountable for withholding information that could prevent something from happening. If it was a roomie/sibling only, and no professional obligations were involved, you'd likely be out unless you ended with a lawyer beyond incompetent.

 

Two, if Russia claimed that they were not involved, they'd be accused of lying because the soldiers occupying look like Russian soldiers. This assumes that their claims would be taken seriously to begin with.

[von uber]

There's a good reason the geth shown in the images is a supposed agricultural unit similar in look to Legion, as opposed to say an armature or prime demanding if it has a soul.
If it showed the massed ranks of a geth strike force asking the question of a sole quarian, I suspect a tad more sympathy would be coming the way of the quarians.
But that whole segment is designed for people to feel sorry for the poor little geth unit asking in its plaintive voice - but don't worry! It'll suddenly pick up a sniper rifle (cue handy reminder legion your buddy has one just like it - ooooh what if it is it in the images!!!!!) to defend itself.. ignoring the legions (ho ho) of militarised geth probably already remorselessly on the offensive - as we are told, losses of individual units don't matter because they just use the backups's in a new one.
What's ten geth platforms to one quarian soldier? There's 200 more coming off the assembly line..

[General TSAR]

Another debate about SkyNet? 

 

(Sigh)

 

Oh wow, you chuckleheads are arguing about Kyrm too?! Good Lord.....

[DeinonSlayer]

There's a good reason the geth shown in the images is a supposed agricultural unit similar in look to Legion, as opposed to say an armature or prime demanding if it has a soul.
If it showed the massed ranks of a geth strike force asking the question of a sole quarian, I suspect a tad more sympathy would be coming the way of the quarians.
But that whole segment is designed for people to feel sorry for the poor little geth unit asking in its plaintive voice - but don't worry! It'll suddenly pick up a sniper rifle (cue handy reminder legion your buddy has one just like it - ooooh what if it is it in the images!!!!!) to defend itself.. ignoring the legions (ho ho) of militarised geth probably already remorselessly on the offensive - as we are told, losses of individual units don't matter because they just use the backups's in a new one.
What's ten geth platforms to one quarian soldier? There's 200 more coming off the assembly line..

Geth were built as tools of "labor and war." They were already armed at the start of hostilities. But I suppose it's more sympathetic to show the unarmed agricultural model claiming a weapon to protect the innocent and the weak of his kind than it would be to show what happened to the poor bastard who was sitting in his barracks with an issue of Fornax and got called down to the motor pool to start unplugging Armatures.



"What are you waiting for, soldier? Go on, it's just a precautionary measure. I'll, um... be right over here, behind these crates."
"Uhh... Good robot... Nice robot..."

[Bardox9]

Can't believe the Genophage cure and the fate of the Geth are still being debated, but it is a good topic. Sooo... meh.

 

When it comes to the Genophage and Geth, It all depends on the course you took through the trilogy. If Wrex survives ME1, Bakara survives the creation of the cure, and Rachni Queen from ME1 is still alive then curing the Genophage is IMO an acceptable risk. Wrex and Bakara can try and lead the Krogan down a sustainable path. Should that fail, the Rachni can be brought to bare against another uprising. Vise Versa should the Rachni become a threat. Wrex is awesome and Grunt will always be my boy, but it's an all or nothing deal. The combo of Wrex, Bakara, and Rachni Queen must all be alive and well during the cut scene before Mordin uses the cure on the shroud. Remove one of those and the risks in curing the Krogan are too great and must not be allowed at that point.

 

Keep in mind that the Genophage doesn't actually sterilize the Krogan. It just reduces the chance of a Krogan pregnancy coming to full term. A fertile Krogan male and female can produce clutches of up to 1,000 eggs in a year. Their natural life span can go well beyond a thousand years. You are talking about 2 people producing close to a million kids. These numbers are unsustainable without the hazards in day to day life on Tachanka and with their access to modern weaponry even those dangers are not a real factor. For a sustainable population the Genophage was designed to limit their birth rate to each female having 1 healthy child per year. Granted seeing 999 still born babies is soul crushing, but it was done in response to the Krogan race trying to destroy every other race in the galaxy. There are consequences to doing that. Besides, the number one cause of death on Tachanka is being shot by a Krogan. Their population would be booming if they just stopped killing each other. The thing that is driving the Krogan to extinction is... The Krogan.

 

As for the Geth, I doubt lines of code will be enough to threaten organics in the way that has been suggested. EDI and Legion are proof the code in itself is safe (relatively speaking) to use for the purposes of "freeing" the Geth. Destroy or rewrite of the heretics doesn't really matter except in the points the Geth and Quarians provide in war assets. And any of the endings make the debate over the Geth moot anyway. Shepard takes control of all things Reaper OR the lines between organic and synthetic are erased OR all things Reaper go BOOM! To me, there is no reason not to allow Legion to upload the code... unless you can't get the Quarians to stop firing or you just hate Geth.

 

Keep in mind, the war between the Quarians and  the Geth (both times) begin by the Quarians trying to destroy the Geth. The Quarians lost their world and lived as nomads for 300+ years because they tried to exterminate a race that did nothing but ask "Does this unit have a soul?" The only thing the Geth, with the exception of the heretics (a tiny fraction of the Geth), have ever wanted to do is not die. Any culture you look at, if someone tries to kill you then you have the right to defend yourself by trying to kill them right back. The Quarians are the bad guys in this equation.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

FYI: Bakara dies if you dont have Maelon's Cure Research. Her survival is in no way tied to Wrex.

[Sir DeLoria]

They were rendered defenseless against the Migrant Fleet with that new tech the Quarians developed. The Geth couldnt have fought back properly if they tried and the only reason they didnt get wiped out then was cause of Reaper interference. 

So? All is fair in love and war, the Quarians were just prepared better. Xen's super weapon worked like a flashbang against the Geth and inhibited their target lasers and communications. Even if the Geth were overrun, it was still a war, wars aren't determined by how good the invaded armed forces can fight back, as long as they actively do.

[Excella Gionne]

When I first read this post, I thought we were trying to sterilize the Geth....

[Bardox9]

So? All is fair in love and war, the Quarians were just prepared better. Xen's super weapon worked like a flashbang against the Geth and inhibited their target lasers and communications. Even if the Geth were overrun, it was still a war, wars aren't determined by how good the invaded armed forces can fight back, as long as they actively do.

 

This mentality is how we get war crimes and homicidal spouses. All is not fair in love and war. There are many many things we have all universally declared to be not fair and bad form. Beating on and killing someone who can't see, hear, or move is one of those many things.

[Barquiel]

The only evidence that the Geth were wiped out due to 'asking a question' is from the one sided information supplied by the Geth in an attempt to win Shepard's sympathy and gain her help.

But even Tali admitted in ME1 that the Quarians tried to permanently deactivate all geth because they were showing signs of rudimentary self-awareness and independent thought. I mean, the geth consensus mission doesn't contradict anything Tali (or the codex) said, we just got some video recordings.

[Farangbaa]

But even Tali admitted in ME1 that the Quarians tried to permanently deactivate all geth because they were showing signs of rudimentary self-awareness and independent thought. I mean, the geth consensus mission doesn't contradict anything Tali (or the codex) said, we just got some video recordings.

 

Exactly. It's not like ME3 brings anything new to the table in regards to why the Quarians tried to kill the Geth, in only summarizes it into one question.

[DeinonSlayer]

But even Tali admitted in ME1 that the Quarians tried to permanently deactivate all geth because they were showing signs of rudimentary self-awareness and independent thought. I mean, the geth consensus mission doesn't contradict anything Tali (or the codex) said, we just got some video recordings.

No question. Granted, Council law dictated the Quarian government's (governments?) course of action, but that doesn't make it right. The awkward thing about the way the conflict is presented is how they weasel out of directly mentioning the other side of it (which, given who it's coming from, is to be expected).

[Sir DeLoria]

This mentality is how we get war crimes and homicidal spouses. All is not fair in love and war. There are many many things we have all universally declared to be not fair and bad form. Beating on and killing someone who can't see, hear, or move is one of those many things.

So flashbangs and flares are evil? Temporarily blinding and disabling an opponent to gain an advantage is absolutely accepted and quite useful in modern combat. It's not like we're talking about ABC weapons here.

As cool as that'd be, it'd be hard to go back to the medieval system of honor and chivalry. Though few people ever followed any of those codes and medieval combat was some of the most ruthless and brutal in human history.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

So flashbangs and flares are evil? Temporarily blinding and disabling an opponent to gain an advantage is absolutely accepted and quite useful in modern combat. It's not like we're talking about ABC weapons here.

As cool as that'd be, it'd be hard to go back to the medieval system of honor and chivalry. Though few people ever followed any of those codes and medieval combat was some of the most ruthless and brutal in human history.

 

The tech the Quarians used was the equivalent of a biological weapon. Even if they could still fight back while it was active, they were permanently impaired the entire time and being slaughtered with ease.

[Sir DeLoria]

The tech the Quarians used was the equivalent of a biological weapon.

Nope, you're just making that up.

Even if they could still fight back while it was active, they were permanently impaired the entire time and being slaughtered with ease.

I don't get what's wrong with that. The Geth were a vastly superior force, outnumbering the Quarians multiple thousand times. The Quarians made up their missing numbers through technological prowess.

One could also argue that it was a logical consequence for the Geths' extreme xenophobia and isolationism. Or at the very least that they never attempted to prevent outside hostility.

[DeinonSlayer]

The tech the Quarians used was the equivalent of a biological weapon. Even if they could still fight back while it was active, they were permanently impaired the entire time and being slaughtered with ease.

The tech the Quarians were using is in no way comparable to a bioweapon. It's more like two sides fighting at night, and only one side is equipped with night vision gear. Nothing unethical about having a tactical advantage.

On the flip side of that, Legion does talk about an ongoing three hundred year effort to clean up "toxins" from the Morning War. And given that chemical weaponry would be useless against a synthetic enemy...

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Xen's weapon was an incredible technological innovation; it blinded the Geth. I'd bet it could be adapted for use against Reaper husks. 

It was a giant flashbang that made the Geth ships and ground units unable to sense where the Quarian ships were. There is absolutely nothing immoral about that; it's no worse than the Normandy's and the Salarians' stealth systems. 

[Obadiah]

What's the evidence that the Geth knew what Sovereign was planning when the Heretics left?

[shodiswe]

Xen's weapon was an incredible technological innovation; it blinded the Geth. I'd bet it could be adapted for use against Reaper husks. 

It was a giant flashbang that made the Geth ships and ground units unable to sense where the Quarian ships were. There is absolutely nothing immoral about that; it's no worse than the Normandy's and the Salarians' stealth systems.

We have been told it doesn't work on the Reapers. It's probably a Reaper/collector gift anyway, for services rendered or salvage.

In Mass Effect: Ascention (Which is between the 2 year span between ME1 and 2) Kyhle Sanders provides the Quarian admiralty with intel and information on the Reapers and Sovereign after the attack on the Citadel and warns them so that they can prepare for the Reapers.
The Quarians had been discussing Searchign for a new homeworld and sending out explorer fleets but interest was cool at best, (I guess Koris was the onlyone interested, possibly Raan) But once they learn about the Reapers they are suddenly interested and decides to send out explorers to find either a suitable new world, or Reaperships to help influence a removal of the Geth from Rannnoch.

2 years (ME2) later we meet tali as she and a team who's very worried about anyone getting to Veetor before they do. All security mechs on the collony had been disabled before the Collector attack on Freedoms progress. But after the Collectors had left and you land in a Cerberus shuttle they were reprogrammed to attack anything that moves and activated.
The only living person in the whole colony left is a Quarian who choose a very unusual location for a pilgrimage, and Tali and her team who seemed to think Tali didn't know what was best in the situation, was sent there by her Father Admiral Rael Zorah to pickup Veetor. The Quarians arrived from the other side of the galaxy, several relays away to respond and save one Quarian before anyone else had time to respond.
Even before Cerberus who had been monitoring and tracking these events to try and expect where the next attack would happen and responde before everyone else.

You then find Veetor who instead of activating the mechs from the security room during the Collector attack just sat there collecting security records and data. Then when other people (Cerberus in a human shuttle arrives unexpectedly) activates the mechs and disables all safeties instructing them to shoot anything that moves.

TIM tells us very little is known about the Collectors but they are known for trading technology for services rendered, usualy in the form of testsubjects.
◾According to Mass Effect: Incursion, Freedom's Progress had a population of 912,810 in 2183
It also wasn't the first colony taken.

Weeks or months later we encounter Tali on Halestrom where we learn that her father has been sending her on covert missions to collect Geth parts and technology for his research. But this was her last mission and she decides she can join up with Shepard for a while.

Later still, Tali is recalled to the Fleet due to problems arrising from Admiral Raels experimentation with his new anti-Geth technology where he had ordered the removal of all firewalls and by passing of normal securityarrangements because he was so sure of what he had that he prefered expedience over a safer more cautious approach. This resulted in his death and that of his crew because his Geth testsubjects managed to turn the tables on them and surprise them.
His last dying words for Tali was for her to get the research to Xen and Han on the admiralty who were his allies in all of this. They in turn were worried about what might come out of this incident and potential political implications.

So, we got;
Admiralty order to find Reapers and aquire reaper technology or influence to get rid of the Geth, or a planet to live on.
Strange Quarian activity and unlikely turns of events on Freedom's progress.
Leading to a new superweapon that the Quarians hadn't been able to produce/develop for the past 300 years, but all of a sudden it's deviced in no time at all with minimal resources covertly allocated. The Quarians on the research ship sounds like idiots with no idea what they were doing, which likely helped them get themselves killed.

[Farangbaa]

On the flip side of that, Legion does talk about an ongoing three hundred year effort to clean up "toxins" from the Morning War. And given that chemical weaponry would be useless against a synthetic enemy...

 

Why? 

 

I'm pretty certain there's acids/bases that will destroy synthetics.

[DeinonSlayer]

Whole lotta headcannon there, shodiswe. The bit from Ascension, like dark energy, was an abandoned plot - Gerrel says specifically the Quarians plan to fight the Reapers at Tali's trial (though Xen mulling it over as an option wouldn't surprise me even if she didn't pursue it). Rael made a (failed) attempt at hacking the Geth - just because Tali didn't understand all of it from inspecting a console for six seconds doesn't mean anything. That stuff about Veetor makes no sense whatsoever - why would Tali let Shepard take him if he's supposedly a contact for some sort of exchange with the Collectors? First time I've seen anyone try to tar Veetor as evil.

Xen's flashbang does essentially the exact same thing Legion does to blind Heretic Station to the boarding team's presence. As much as it would serve to vilify, well, Xen at least, the Quarians never acquired nor made use of Reaper tech in their fight with the Geth.

...why do I bother. You've made up your mind.

[DeinonSlayer]

Why?

I'm pretty certain there's acids/bases that will destroy synthetics.

Really dude? Consider which side lost 99% of its population in the space of a year; also this:

"The Krogan bombed their own world into this condition. Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War."
"We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them!"

[Farangbaa]

Really dude? Consider which side lost 99% of its population in the space of a year; also this:

"The Krogan bombed their own world into this condition. Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War."
"We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them!"

 

I'm not saying they didn't use them. I'm debating your statement that chemical weapons couldn't be used against Synthetics.