258 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Whole lotta headcannon there, shodiswe. The bit from Ascension, like dark energy, was an abandoned plot - Gerrel says specifically the Quarians plan to fight the Reapers at Tali's trial (though Xen mulling it over as an option wouldn't surprise me). Rael made a (failed) attempt at hacking the Geth - just because Tali didn't understand all of it from inspecting a console for six seconds doesn't mean anything. Xen's flashbang does essentially the exact same thing Legion does to blind Heretic Station to the boarding team's presence. As much as it would serve to vilify, well, Xen at least, the Quarians never acquired nor made use of Reaper tech in their fight with the Geth.

They were intent on aquiering reapertech in between ME1 and ME2 as an option. Least some of them were, which lead to the exploration initiative. It's cannon from the books.
What Legion did likely wasn't the same, all he did was create a distraction, the distraction didn't stop the Geth from fighting, targeting or seeing you once you did something that caught their attention.
If it had been the same thing their platforms would have been completely blind.
The only thing he did was to discretely cause a mess inside their servers to make them clean that up instead of walking around in in their mobileplatforms that would be more likely to spot an infiltration team.

For 300 years, they were unable to create anything like it, even the experts on their homeworld that had originaly created the Geth.
Then you got a chain of unlikely events like the team picking up Veetor before anyone else could react, nevermind the fact that the only survivor out of almost a million people and other possible visitors was one Quarian hiding in the Colonys central security room controling all mechs and security cameras and equipment. Who was about to get picked up by Quarian extractionteam arriving right after the Collectors left. Apparently security had been deactivated and all evidence sweeped on the other colonies aswell.
If the Collectors had been the ones sweeping security records and deactivating security then they would have gone to the security office. Where Veetor was... Apparently, it wasn't a problem for Veetor.

Also, he didn't activate the mechs to attack the Collectors, surely they wouldn't have needed reprogramming to protect the colonists from the collectors! Instead he just sat there collecting recordings and data for the admirals and cleaning up all evidence by feeding it to his omnitool. When he could have worked on activating the mechs, if he hadn't been in on it.

Then when responseteams with human shuttles arrive, the mech arn't just activated, they are also reprogrammed to kill anything that moves.

After that mission Rael Zorah sends Tali on missions to collect Geth material for his "experiments".

Xen got her new weapon from the Alarei thanks to Shepards help in killing of the Geth. If they had blown up the ship instead then we might have avoided the war.

[shodiswe]

Really dude? Consider which side lost 99% of its population in the space of a year; also this:

"The Krogan bombed their own world into this condition. Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War."
"We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them!"

"Not as agressive" is relative when you compare to Krogans. Tuchanka was completely leveled, no other species could survive there, the Krogans barely survived. The Quarians are very sensitive.

[DeinonSlayer]

Gotta say, your ability to craft an Auld Wulf-esque conspiracy is impressive. It even makes an interesting story, but I don't think it holds up to scrutiny, and I suspect the only constant in it will be Quarians=bad.

Lemme get this straight. You're saying Veetor went in there with the intention of shutting down the security systems to allow the Collectors to take the colony without resistance and clean up records afterwards. And you're saying this was done on multiple colonies.

• Wouldn't Veetor have programmed the mechs to not target Quarians if they were meant to be his extraction?
• Wouldn't a Cerberus interrogation reveal that he was some kind of black operator? If any of this were true, why would Cerberus release him?
• On what basis are we assuming the other colonies had similar security apparatuses, cameras, mechs, and where is it said the former were wiped? The Collectors can and do take whomever they wish. There was no sabotage on Horizon; the Alliance-provided cannons (which Freedom's Progress also had per its codex entry) had crap software.

You're basing this entire conspiracy on the fact that they were there to extract him. What's to say they weren't in the area for an entirely unrelated reason and happened to receive his distress call? Is Miranda's explanation for why he wasn't taken inadequate? Also, how were Rael's hacking project and Xen's flashbang in any way related? The former was intended to seize control of them, the latter "overwhelms their sensors with garbage data" exactly like Legion did.

[shodiswe]

Gotta say, your ability to craft an Auld Wulf-esque conspiracy is impressive. It even makes an interesting story, but I don't think it holds up to scrutiny, and I suspect the only constant in it will be Quarians=bad.

Lemme get this straight. You're saying Veetor went in there with the intention of shutting down the security systems to allow the Collectors to take the colony without resistance and clean up records afterwards. And you're saying this was done on multiple colonies.

• Wouldn't Veetor have programmed the mechs to not target Quarians if they were meant to be his extraction?
Answer: No, they didn't expect anyone to showup before his ride arrived. Reprogramming them was done in all haste to prevent discovery. It was never done on the other colonies, they were merely disabled because there was noone left to be a threat. Also, Shepards arrival was a shock, it was likely easier to just remove the target recognition and blocking than to reprogram them all to not shoot Quarians. Also, when he needed to he could deactivate them from his console to escape. Noone would doubt that he's the one who reprogrammed them, or that he activated them after the Collectors left. When caught playing insane and crazy is obviously the best defence.
Also, Prazza seemed unusualy eager to evacuate Veetor before Shepard would get to him, despite the risks of the berserk mechs. Why? What was so imporant about evacuating a civilian who was in no danger with such expediency that it risked both his own life and that of his squad. Maybe Prazza was in the loop where as Tali wasn't. Because Rael didn't want her to get into trouble.

• Wouldn't a Cerberus interrogation reveal that he was some kind of black operator? If any of this were true, why would Cerberus release him?
Answer: They probably bought into the act and didn't perform the more extreme procedures since Shepard had promised to return him uninjured. It was still Shepards mission, on Shepards terms.

• On what basis are we assuming the other colonies had similar security apparatuses, cameras, mechs, and where is it said the former were wiped? The Collectors can and do take whomever they wish. There was no sabotage on Horizon; the Alliance-provided cannons (which Freedom's Progress also had per its codex entry) had crap software.

Answer: Miranda told you this at the start of the mission. In all colonies before Freedom's progress the security systems had been disabled and all security data errased. If the Collectors did it themselves then they would have found Veetor hiding in the security office that controlled the colony surveilence cameras and defences. Either they were allied and let him be, or they let him do his work unimpeded because they were allied through a deal.

Answer: Horizon, maybe the Quarians pulled out after nearly getting caught on Freedoms progress(they decided it was time to quit), maybe they already had enough pay from the Collectors and what they needed. Maybe there were Quarians who keept sabotaging the installation process, but that's not something that seems likely since there was no indication of a Quarian presense on Horison. Freedoms progress was about a million humans, if they were involved in other colonies before that then surely they would have earned a pay from the collectors to keep going.

You're basing this entire conspiracy on the fact that they were there to extract him. What's to say they weren't in the area for an entirely unrelated reason and happened to receive his distress call? Is Miranda's explanation for why he wasn't taken inadequate? (speculation)Also, how were Rael's hacking project and Xen's flashbang in any way related? The former was intended to seize control of them, the latter "overwhelms their sensors with garbage data" exactly like Legion did.

Answer: Rael wasn't nessesarily looking to take control, hacking isn't always about taking control, just delivering a Fatman that wipes all data or causes system breakdowns or performance issues would be in the realm of hacking to deliver the payload.
Calling it a Flashbang is more of an analogy for blinding them. We're told it doesn't work on reapers, becaus it likely can't hack their systems. If the Reapers had anything to do with it then I'm pretty sure they didn't give anything that would backfire on themselves. As Xen tells you, Rael and Han wanted to destroy the Geth, not control them

The only thing missing to prove it beyond all doubt is a videolog or diary where Rael or the other admirals are outlining their involvement of selling a million or more humans to the Collectors to be slugified and experimented upon. Thoguh given the councils reaction to such a recording saying they sold out a council race and cost the lives of millions... I doubt they would ever utter a word about it to anyone they don't have to. Rael was also very insistant on not bringing Tali into his project when his partners in crime sugested it in that recording. He had her help him but he didn't want to tell him what he was truly doing, he only told the other people involved because he didn't want her to get into trouble for his crimes as he put it.

Also,(Mass Effect: Ascention) why did they say that the Admirals wanted to secure Reaper influence to remove the Geth from their homeworld, and they sent expeditions to find Reaperships. Surely it was a foreshadowing of things to come in ME2 and 3, since it seems to have very little to do with Gillian or the Ascention project.

[DeinonSlayer]

It was a possibility they considered which, given Gerrel's dialogue, they already discarded by the time you get to the fleet. Never brought up again before or since. Frankly, I thought it was one of the dumber parts of the book. The rest is your headcanon.

Prazza pushes ahead because he doesn't want the organization which boarded the Flotilla and massacred civilians to get to him first. He figures Tali's judgment is compromised because it's Shepard.

I doubt Cerberus interrogators would be as gullible as you think they are. Headcanon.

Miranda never says anything about security systems on other colonies. Headcanon.

There is no talk at all of Quarians on Horizon or any other human colony. Headcanon.

You haven't refuted anything I said about the flashbang. You're free to your interpretation, but it's nothing more than that.

[shodiswe]

Also, Freedoms progress had almost a million inhabitants.... But no aliens at all? not even merchants, traders, security people? Visitors? Except for one single Quarian, who was left unharmed?

Clearly Mordin didn't think he was immune to the seekerswarms.

[Obadiah]

Huh, didn't expect this thread just get crazy entertaining. Always a surprise on BSN.

[shodiswe]

It was a possibility they considered which, given Gerrel's dialogue, they already discarded by the time you get to the fleet. Never brought up again before or since. Frankly, I thought it was one of the dumber parts of the book. The rest is your headcanon.

Prazza tushes ahead because he doesn't want the organization which boarded the Flotilla and massacred civilians to get to him first. He figures Tali's judgment is compromised because it's Shepard.

Miranda never says anything about security systems on other colonies. Headcanon.

When you get to meet Gerrel it's long past the Tali's and Veetors missions, Rael Zorah is already dead. Han Gerrel is trying to avoid political backlash if any evidence is recovered that might incriminate him and those who shared his and Raels views.
Rael and Han were very close and grew up together.

When anyone asks, especialy a human and human specre to boot, I would damn well expect him to lie if he had any involvement in something that might have cost a million humans or more their lives.
If the council had uncovered something like that then the whole Citadel fleet might have come for them to implement sanctions and trials or shoot them down if they try to resist.

I can't immagine that any Quarian would want to admit something like that. But I don't think Han Gerrel would hessitate to trade a million human lives for the homeworld, or even ten million humans. He's prepared to let both Tali and Shepard die on the dreadnaught. Rael Zorah was described as being even more reckless, being a bad influence on Han Gerrel.

Would a million dead humans mean more to them than Rannoch and possibly the Salvation of their species as they saw it? Aswell as revenge on the Geth.

I think they would have accepted the deal without blinking; You want a few million humans? I guess that's ok, there will still be billions left of them, my species on the other hand is risking extinction! Least culturaly if nothing else. I can definately see them making a deal and it's pointed out several times that both governments and mercenaries have been known to make deals with the collectors in exchange for technology.

[DeinonSlayer]

Yeah, yeah, I already know you see Gerrel as the devil incarnate. Yawn.

You're making highly impactful, wide-sweeping inferences with little to no evidence and ignoring any piece which doesn't fit. Again, you're free to your interpretation (it even makes a somewhat interesting story), but it's nothing more than that.

[von uber]

Er.. that's sure some interesting headcanon there.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Uhhh, well, we lose. How can you argue with headcanon? It's irrefutable. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Nope, you're just making that up.

I don't get what's wrong with that. The Geth were a vastly superior force, outnumbering the Quarians multiple thousand times. The Quarians made up their missing numbers through technological prowess.

One could also argue that it was a logical consequence for the Geths' extreme xenophobia and isolationism. Or at the very least that they never attempted to prevent outside hostility.

 

Fighting at night doesnt make all your senses less effective. Only sight. I still stand by my point since you are claiming the Geth are xenophobes when they are not and you are most definitely making stuff up now to not be wrong.

[DeinonSlayer]

Fighting at night doesnt make all your senses less effective. Only sight. I still stand by my point since you are claiming the Geth are xenophobes when they are not and you are most definitely making stuff up now to not be wrong.

The Geth were less effective, not wholly ineffective. Read the description of the gas giant in the Tikkun system.

If ignoring all attempts made by others to communicate and killing anyone that comes near you isn't xenophobia, then what is it?

[Obadiah]

That's isolationism.

[DeinonSlayer]

That's isolationism.

The distinction being what they think about what they're doing, right?

By that same logic, the attempted "genocide" of the Geth actually wasn't one because Quarians thought they were shutting down malfunctioning machines.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

The distinction being what they think about what they're doing, right?

By that same logic, the attempted "genocide" of the Geth actually wasn't one because Quarians thought they were shutting down malfunctioning machines.

 

Flawed Logic is flawed. They believed they were acting in self defense then. The Isolationism kicked in afterwards.

[Mrs_Stick]

The distinction being what they think about what they're doing, right?
By that same logic, the attempted "genocide" of the Geth actually wasn't one because Quarians thought they were shutting down malfunctioning machines.

You know arguing with Geth fanatics is as useless as ****** on a boar hog right?

[Aimi]

Flawed Logic is flawed. They believed they were acting in self defense then. The Isolationism kicked in afterwards.

[DeinonSlayer]

Flawed Logic is flawed. They believed they were acting in self defense then. The Isolationism kicked in afterwards.

Exactly my point. What the Geth were doing was functionally identical.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You know arguing with Geth fanatics is as useless as ****** on a boar hog right?

 

I generally classify myself as pro-Geth, but why do I so often agree with people on the other side?

[DeinonSlayer]

I generally classify myself as pro-Geth, but why do I so often agree with people on the other side?

Probably for the same reason I get peeved when pro-Quarian people discount the Geth as alive.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The tech the Quarians used was the equivalent of a biological weapon. Even if they could still fight back while it was active, they were permanently impaired the entire time and being slaughtered with ease.

 

So essentially, if you're fighting a nation that uses weaponry at 1980s technology, and you have weapons at 2003 technology, you should tie one hand behind your back and use 1980s technology to fight the war just to be fair, just because your 2003 tech drops an electronic blanket so that no unit in their military knows what another unit is doing, and you should use only aircraft from 1980 because your 2003 tech level aircraft can fly circles around theirs.

 

I don't think so.

[Obadiah]

...
By that same logic, the attempted "genocide" of the Geth actually wasn't one because Quarians thought they were shutting down malfunctioning machines.

Xenophopia is the fear of anything foreign or strange. Since the Geth are machines and don't have emotions, I don't think "phobia" is a term that could really apply to them. What the Geth did was send a very strong message that they wanted to be left alone. That's isolationism - they wanted no contact and killed anyone that tried. That's just the definition of their behavior on the face of it.

The Quarians tried to destroy an entire race in its infancy. Maybe understandable, but still Genocide.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

So essentially, if you're fighting a nation that uses weaponry at 1980s technology, and you have weapons at 2003 technology, you should tie one hand behind your back and use 1980s technology to fight the war just to be fair, just because your 2003 tech drops an electronic blanket so that no unit in their military knows what another unit is doing, and you should use only aircraft from 1980 because your 2003 tech level aircraft can fly circles around theirs.

 

I don't think so.

 

Didja make your own copy of the Oz Scarecrow just to show off your really bad logic?

 

The sort of advantage you get from fighting against someone blind, deaf, and stupid is the one that lets you know that tribunals are just gonna love painting you up like a war criminal. Or make you feel right at home in Texas.

[AlanC9]

Exactly my point. What the Geth were doing was functionally identical.

If Shepard didn't need the WA points, I'd support an option to let both groups of genocidal maniacs exterminate each other