258 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

@xray16
Obscure line in ME3 from the start of Koris' mission: "Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

Also EDI, post-Rannoch: "The Quarians' historical error was not making the Geth enough like them. Units with networked intelligences will trend toward cooperation for mutual benefit, but units with central heuristics establishing an individual personality, such as myself, develop preferences. These preferences form attachments that keep my calculations from devaluing the worth of the lives aboard the Normandy."

They actually do on the Alarei pretty much exactly what they did on Rannoch: kill everyone and isolate themselves. IIRC Gerrel says the Geth were the ones who cut the ship's communications; I'd have thought it'd be the other way around, with the Quarians jamming all outgoing comms lest the Geth broadcast themselves to and install themselves on the computers of other ships.

There are dead people who were trying to hide under tables and in locked rooms on the Alarei, judging by that recording and where we find the bodies. I doubt 100% of the crew took part in the experiments.

[Sentinel Defender]

Unsurprising if you shoot the horse yourself and then leave a stick next to it with a label makred "hit here".

 

Getting back to the actual discussion in this thread:

Where is it stated that the Geth would or wouldn't draw distinction between civilians and soldiers? If you take what happens within the data archive at face value, then they actually seemed more confused and bewildered than anything else, trying to understand why they were being killed. If anything the evidence from the incursions into their station in ME2 sugested to me that they wouldn't fire unless fired upon first ?

 

If you are talking about the Heretic station, they didn't fire on the Normandy because of the stealth system. They didn't attack in full force until the bomb was placed because the platforms were connected to their central networks and they were unaware of their surroundings until Shepard interrupted the data flow. The Geth did fire on peaceful vessels that were sent to them after the morning war.  

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Depends on the definition of "innocent." Making a distinction between soldiers and civilians would not have come naturally to the geth, for the reasons you mention.

 

Whether they know or not, I'm not sure. We know though, and as such dubbing Geth as rightful in their genocide is far-fetched.

[DeinonSlayer]

On the station those were Heretics - as you pointed out. Was it also Heretics that fired on ships after the monirng war? I don't think there's evidence that anyone other then the Heretics (i.e. Geth being manipulated by Soverign) had access to dragons teeth or were involved in the attack on the citadel - or eden prime. I guess without getting into specific incidents it's a tricky discussion either way.
Also I think there's a matter of perspective. You've just been attacked savagely - an attempt to exterminate your species. You've conducted a massive counter-attack on the spur of the moment and driven off that offensive. A ship from the group that originally attacked you is approaching, what do you do, logically? After a while the ships stop coming. Then can you lower your defcon level and change your ROE?

The heretics didn't exist as an entity separate and distinct from the orthodox Geth until Saren made contact with them aboard Sovereign, according to the codex entry on Geth Heretics. The codex on Geth culture and the planet description of Haestrom corroborate what ME: Revelation established, that the Geth are isolationists who have ignored all hails and consistently killed envoys sent to them (along with any other craft seen entering their space) for the last three hundred years.

[Mrs_Stick]

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Unsurprising if you shoot the horse yourself and then leave a stick next to it with a label makred "hit here".

 

Getting back to the actual discussion in this thread:

Where is it stated that the Geth would or wouldn't draw distinction between civilians and soldiers? If you take what happens within the data archive at face value, then they actually seemed more confused and bewildered than anything else, trying to understand why they were being killed. If anything the evidence from the incursions into their station in ME2 sugested to me that they wouldn't fire unless fired upon first ?

 

Legion was overloading them with garbage data that was forcing the Heretics to their hubs to scrub through it to track what was going on. That's why they were not initiating attacks in certain rooms

[Obadiah]

...
The codex on Geth culture and the planet description of Haestrom corroborate what ME: Revelation established, that the Geth are isolationists who have ignored all hails and consistently killed envoys sent to them (along with any other craft seen entering their space) for the last three hundred years.

How many ships was that?

[DeinonSlayer]

How many ships was that?

100%, save those with "state-of-the-art stealth technology." So, total number is unknown, but according to the map description of Haestrom, it's a policy which has continued as recently as humanity's introduction to the galactic community.

[Obadiah]

100%, save those with "state-of-the-art stealth technology." So, total number is unknown, but according to the map description of Haestrom, it's a policy which has continued as recently as humanity's introduction to the galactic community.

Well, I'm guessing it was a maximum of 3 manned envoy ships maybe (but probably 1), since no state would be dumb enough to continue sending ships into Geth territory to have their diplomats or envoys killed. I doubt if any more ships were sent they were even manned.

[DeinonSlayer]

Well, I'm guessing it was a maximum of 3 manned envoy ships maybe (but probably 1), since no state would be dumb enough to continue sending ships into Geth territory to have their diplomats or envoys killed. I doubt if any more ships were sent they were even manned.

One would think even the MEU's governments would get the hint. That doesn't mean they wouldn't try again, say, a decade or two later.



From Haestrom's description:

TRAVEL ADVISORY: Haestrom is a geth stronghold. Military spy drones using cutting-edge stealth technology are the only vehicles that have returned unharmed from geth space. All civilian traffic is prohibited.

 

You've gotta think, even with Xen's flashbang blaring, you'd have to be pretty ballsy to be the first Quarian ship (no stealth) to go through the relay.

[AlanC9]

Whether they know or not, I'm not sure. We know though, and as such dubbing Geth as rightful in their genocide is far-fetched.

Oh, sure. I didn't mean to come across as defending the geth's actions there. They're clearly wrong -- by human standards, anyway.

[shodiswe]

One would think even the MEU's governments would get the hint. That doesn't mean they wouldn't try again, say, a decade or two later.



From Haestrom's description:

TRAVEL ADVISORY: Haestrom is a geth stronghold. Military spy drones using cutting-edge stealth technology are the only vehicles that have returned unharmed from geth space. All civilian traffic is prohibited.
 
You've gotta think, even with Xen's flashbang blaring, you'd have to be pretty ballsy to be the first Quarian ship (no stealth) to go through the relay.

If they enter the same way Swordfleet enterd sol then it's a difference of 0.03 seconds between each sucessive ship entering the system. Sometimes less given that hundreds of ships seem to be able to arrive simulntaneously within seconds. Since it's in-game it's cannon.

Meaning they could easily outnumber a militia fleet and kill a few ships at the time when moving from system to system. The Geth fleet would have been spread out initialy, and totaly unprepared for that "special" attack.

[DeinonSlayer]

If they enter the same way Swordfleet enterd sol then it's a difference of 0.03 seconds between each sucessive ship entering the system. Sometimes less given that hundreds of ships seem to be able to arrive simulntaneously within seconds. Since it's in-game it's cannon.Meaning they could easily outnumber a militia fleet and kill a few ships at the time when moving from system to system. The Geth fleet would have been spread out initialy, and totaly unprepared for that "special" attack.

Whatever floats your boat. I prefer to stick with the established lore over some rule-of-cool cutscene handwave (of which ME3 had far too many). When they come out bragging about how "our thanix missiles do a f***load of damage," I don't just bob my head and go along with it; I call bullshit because it's practically a contradiction in terms. It's been repeatedly established, even in ME3's codex, that it takes days for the migrant fleet to traverse a relay. I'm not going to recommend they do something which was established as physically impossible and then get pissy when they don't do it - it simply makes Shepard look like an idiot.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If they enter the same way Swordfleet enterd sol then it's a difference of 0.03 seconds between each sucessive ship entering the system. Sometimes less given that hundreds of ships seem to be able to arrive simulntaneously within seconds. Since it's in-game it's cannon.

Meaning they could easily outnumber a militia fleet and kill a few ships at the time when moving from system to system. The Geth fleet would have been spread out initialy, and totaly unprepared for that "special" attack.

 

I think that goes with the rest of the stuff that happens in cutscene that doesn't, or can't, happen in the lore. You also have things like ships fighting each other Star Wars style when the Codex states things like how mobility is the most important aspect in battle in that ships are constantly on the move.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I think that goes with the rest of the stuff that happens in cutscene that doesn't, or can't, happen in the lore. You also have things like ships fighting each other Star Wars style when the Codex states things like how mobility is the most important aspect in battle in that ships are constantly on the move.

 

And shooting from the hip instead of getting proper firing solutions. Havent they heard that Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son of a ****** in space?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

How about not link-firing their ships in groups to pick off multiple Reapers in a single salvo, then aiming again, and firing again with their two second reload time? 

That whole cutscene is complete bulls***. 

[shodiswe]

If the council wanted to send diplomats or mediators then they sure got an interesting way to show it.

In the year of the morningwar synthetics tried to book a meeting with the council, to negotiate with the council, they were shot down by C-sec and the councils guards. It does kind of make the council seem suspect if they attempt to play the "peaceful diplomat" card when dealing with synthetics.
Also, having a fleet from every organic species stationed right outside the Geth border doesn't really help either. It would rather come across as deception or espionage in preparation for an invasion.
The Citadel forces could likely have defeated and genocided the Geth at that point but it would most likely have cost them a lot of lives on the way. Which I'm sure most politicians would like to avoid if they want to stay in power.

Everyone made misstakes.

- First the Quarians, we know they started it, by ordering the deactivation of all geth, and order given to all Quarians and Quarian colonies, the general population was expected to shut down their own Geth, meaning they would all become Geth killers if they comply. they havn't tried anything but violence for the past 300 years.

- Then the Geth might have done some, but those are poorly documented, if at all. They were after all fighting for their own lives.

- Then the Council sinking their own credibility to act as a mediator in the situation. How can you expect the other side to trust you if you have been shooting unarmed representatives asking for an audience with the council?

Kind of reminds me how Chairman Mao asked the whole Chinese people to persecute sparrows, because he thought they were eating the seeds and destroying the harvests. Sure enough, the sparrow population had a dramatic decrease. But it didn't save the harvest, instead the larvae and various insects that the sparrows normaly eat multiplied uncontrolably and ate the whole harvest.
Leading to one of the worst famines ever recording during peacetime.
Then one stupid decision after another followed.

Which seems very similar to what happend during the Morning war.

As for the Civilian ships in ME3. If they had been unarmed then they would have been a low priority target at most. If you got the chance to take out an armed ship trying to kill you or an unarmed one, then you would be stupid if you go for the unarmed one.
They made the civilian ships a priority target buy makign them glass cannons with lots of offensive weaponry but no defences. Meaning they were the most effective targets to engage.
By attacking them you can reduce the enemys firepower swiftly, thereby reduce your own losses. If they are comming at you with weapon then they arn't non-combatants.

[shodiswe]

If only one ship could travel a relay at a time with minutes to spare between each ship then it would have been easy to stop the Reapers.

Just place 10-20 Dreadnaughts at each relay. 4 is apparently enough to destroy one Reaper Dreadnaught, if you position more then they wouldn't stand a chance.
So, no, I can't see that working. Also civilian trafic would cause serious trafic jams with millions or billions of people on the move.

You can't have millions of peopel living on the Citadel and other stations and billions on different colonies and expect them to travel the Galaxy one ship at the time.

[Obadiah]

It is the narrative inertia of the Geth Quarian conflict. Quarians act, then Geth respond. If the details of the Morning War ever get told that will probably be the story of how the Quarians got driven off-world.

[AlanC9]

If only one ship could travel a relay at a time with minutes to spare between each ship then it would have been easy to stop the Reapers.

Just place 10-20 Dreadnaughts at each relay. 4 is apparently enough to destroy one Reaper Dreadnaught, if you position more then they wouldn't stand a chance.
So, no, I can't see that working. Also civilian trafic would cause serious trafic jams with millions or billions of people on the move.

If you have enough dreadnaughts to cover all the relays you need to, sure. Anyway, relays can and do send multiple ships though at a time; see the trans-relay assaults entry.

[Excella Gionne]

I can't believe it takes like three days for the entire Quarian Migrant Fleet to complete one travel through a relay. Not in the aspect of how fast they get through, but how long it takes for the entire fleet to pass through.

[SporkFu]

I can't believe it takes like three days for the entire Quarian Migrant Fleet to complete one travel through a relay. Not in the aspect of how fast they get through, but how long it takes for the entire fleet to pass through.

It takes the admiralty board that long to debate who gets to go first. 

[Excella Gionne]

It takes the admiralty board that long to debate who gets to go first. 

I'm more surprised that Tali's loyalty mission isn't a timed mission like the Turian Bomb and Grissom.

[DeinonSlayer]

I can't believe it takes like three days for the entire Quarian Migrant Fleet to complete one travel through a relay. Not in the aspect of how fast they get through, but how long it takes for the entire fleet to pass through.

They've said so in the codex since ME1, and it makes sense. It's a fleet of fifty thousand ships. If you could get one through the relay each and every second, it would take just under 14 hours for the entire fleet to pass through a single relay. I guess they forgot about that when it went through peer review, or they just hoped we wouldn't notice.

 

If Shepard suggested retreat via FTL, that would be one thing (question then being if there's a destination, if they'll be pursued, if there's anywhere to discharge drive cores, etc. etc. - the Reapers always won in past cycles by shutting down the relay network and attriting their targets system by system; they have their Geth thralls blockade the relay to do this same thing). But even if we turned the lore on its head to allow escape by relay as Shepard can recommend, what does that retreat accomplish? The Geth remain under Reaper control, and the Quarians can't come back because we're back to the same standoff that existed for the last three centuries where the Geth are once again positioned to kill anything as soon as it enters the system.