402 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

indeed - I apologise - don't want to take this too far off topic... but there are a number of things at stake - irrespective of right or left wing politics.
 
From a simply strategic standpoint: Holy Loch is the main submarine base for the US/British Navy in the north atlantic. As part of the deal that would be gone. As would al RAF and USAF presence, whcih currently is positioned to counter overflight from bear-foxtrot infiltrators (which even now routinely happens). At present the UK coasatguard has a small fleet of vessels allowing joint operations or flexible deployments artound the coast. Those get divided (scotland gets 2 IIRC) and bcome the responsiblity of seperate un-co-ordinated authorities.It's kind of like a messy divorce - and risks becoming a blueprint for the rest of Europe. Because that went really well back in the 40's. "We want rid of you - we're klicking out all your stuff and sticking a wall up- but we're keeping the car AND we're keeping your cheque book".
I always remember a quote from the original Battlestar Galactica "so how do they come together for a common good?" "they don't". "Ohhh."
Over a quarter century later - still true - and actually getting worse right now, not better.

Ah. I was only thinking of it from an economic perspective (ex: Greek debt).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@xray16

I'm an American with strong non-interventionist leanings. As much as I might wish we could coerce certain countries, especially regarding human rights abuses, it doesn't and shouldn't work that way. Government should be as local as possible. So the Council horrifies me, especially because it's an oligarchy, and I'm deeply cynical of the trilogy's focus on cooperation. Cerberus was really the only thing I could get behind and the N*zi imagery in 3 made me angry. The other atrocities are bad enough, but no need to put them beyond the pale.

 

Not to make this political, but man, am I miles away from this: It's my belief that when people are given freedom, liberty, and power of their own, they will always misuse it. I believe in a strong, centralized government and a clear, hierarchical class/distinction between people. Of course, at the very least I believe in a heavily centralized polity/republic, but lean mostly more towards an aristocracy or guardianship as Plato defined it, to increasingly more to the point where I believe all the power should be centralized into one genius capable of ruling effectively and however he sees fit.

[mybudgee]

I choose clan Urdnot

[Sundance31us]

N7 they have better health benefits and a retirement plan.

[Remix-General Aetius]

And the US Navy got started when Bob didn't feel like serving in the Army and started is own faction.

Also, I'd imagine that future navies might still court-martial deserting captains for stealing ships and all that - good luck being a pirate on some baterian moon because you sure can't show your face in any port the Alliance or Cerberus might frequent.

 

who said I'd NEED to hide out on a batarian moon? I've got an edited Coalesced, they can't touch me muhahaha!! Flare & Incinerate with a Geth Spitfire and Flamethrower & Reaper Blackstar at my fingertips.

 

noone can touch me, old mayn!! if Hackett came after me, he'd spend the rest of eternity as a pile of ash.

[FROST4584]

N7

[CrutchCricket]

The first few paragraphs are arguably a fundamental disconnect that we see. It's not going to get resolved. I am a bit amused by your reaction: take a look at your questioning of my actual intent and my attention grabbing antics. You kinda just indulged them heavily. Would you not say that I'm being effective by being so... ambiguous and illogical?

 

lol I did indulge them. Against my better judgement, certainly. But I think you know what it's like to run with an idea past the point you were planning to and the kind of surprises you can encounter when doing so. It does appear to be effective. Some might even say... Massively Effective.

 

In any case, I agree we're done here. Suffice to say I won't agree with your blended view of Shepard and leave it at that.

[Kingthlayer]

Would take the N7 training and jump ship to Cerberus.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Its simple, most people here would never qualify for N1 training, let alone N6 (N7 being achieved after active combat as an N6).

 

Cerberus has much more lax requirements. Though you do need skills if you want to be more than a security detail for the latest really bad idea in hindsight and in foresight study mission.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Its simple, most people here would never qualify for N1 training, let alone N6 (N7 being achieved after active combat as an N6).

 

Cerberus has much more lax requirements. Though you do need skills if you want to be more than a security detail for the latest really bad idea in hindsight and in foresight study mission.

 

On what are you basing this off of? 

[BigglesFlysAgain]

On what are you basing this off of? 

 

N7 stuff off the Codex...Chances of forum users being N7, just based on the standards of modern day special forces, not trying to say everyone here is unfit, just that most of the population of any given country would fail. Cerberus recruitment standards, not totally serious, or meant as a legitimate criticism of Cerberus though the people guarding the Normandy war room seem to think they accept military washouts and discharge cases. And in ME3 they do end up recruiting and indoctrinating nearly anyone as foot soldiers.

 

 

Anyway your right that in the mass effect 2 era they do headhunt the best people, but for every Miri lawson, there's probably 200 Mess Sgt Gardners knocking about cleaning the toilets.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Not to make this political, but man, am I miles away from this: It's my belief that when people are given freedom, liberty, and power of their own, they will always misuse it. I believe in a strong, centralized government and a clear, hierarchical class/distinction between people. Of course, at the very least I believe in a heavily centralized polity/republic, but lean mostly more towards an aristocracy or guardianship as Plato defined it, to increasingly more to the point where I believe all the power should be centralized into one genius capable of ruling effectively and however he sees fit.

Urge.... to Godwin.... rising. 

But anyway, how is it that when the individuals get freedom, liberty, and power they will always misuse it, but one "genius" won't?

[DeinonSlayer]

Urge.... to Godwin.... rising. 

But anyway, how is it that when the individuals get freedom, liberty, and power they will always misuse it, but one "genius" won't?

Because the "genius" ostensibly decides what is and isn't corrupt, I think was the argument at one point.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

@xray16

I'm an American with strong non-interventionist leanings. As much as I might wish we could coerce certain countries, especially regarding human rights abuses, it doesn't and shouldn't work that way. Government should be as local as possible. So the Council horrifies me, especially because it's an oligarchy, and I'm deeply cynical of the trilogy's focus on cooperation. Cerberus was really the only thing I could get behind and the N*zi imagery in 3 made me angry. The other atrocities are bad enough, but no need to put them beyond the pale.

They didn't "make" them evil or racist in Mass Effect 3. The entire concept of Cerberus is racist to begin with. It's a base for anti-alien hatred from the very foundation. The fact that they have many members who are not necessarily racist themselves (such as Jacob and Miranda) and that they are willing to work with aliens temporarily when the need arises, does not change the blatantly racist (or specie-ist, if you will) overtones of the entire movement. The Illusive Man was and is a racist douche. A genius and very capable leader, yes. But still a douche.

[KaiserShep]

Anyway your right that in the mass effect 2 era they do headhunt the best people, but for every Miri lawson, there's probably 200 Mess Sgt Gardners knocking about cleaning the toilets.

 

Hey, you leave him out of his. He catches what falls through the cracks.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

They didn't "make" them evil or racist in Mass Effect 3. The entire concept of Cerberus is racist to begin with. It's a base for anti-alien hatred from the very foundation. The fact that they have many members who are not necessarily racist themselves (such as Jacob and Miranda) and that they are willing to work with aliens temporarily when the need arises, does not change the blatantly racist (or specie-ist, if you will) overtones of the entire movement. The Illusive Man was and is a racist douche. A genius and very capable leader, yes. But still a douche.

 

That's completely false. TIM isn't, nor was he ever a racist or xenophobe, and Cerberus is not an 'anti-alien hate brigade'. They unfortunately attract some people with radical views, as does the alliance. The thing is, beyond Kai Leng (who doesn't even openly exhibit anti-alien prejudices in ME3), we're never shown anyone in Cerberus who is an overt racist, or any sort of racist period. That's a lot more than I can say for the alliance, given Ashley Williams and her comments and opinions, Rear Admiral Mikhailovich, who's downright dismissive and insulting towards them, and the alliance door guards who display a shocking amount of callousness towards other species for little more than the fact that they're aliens. As for the organization itself, it's a pro-human group dedicated to human expansion, progress, advancement, and survival. That's a lot different than being an anti-alien hate group. In fact, I question the veracity of your actual statement of blatant racism: I do directly challenge your intelligence when you say that it's there (when it's not) and challenge you to defend your claim. TIM never showed any racist undertones. Ever. He's not a racist. Period. He downright told Saren to form a similar organization for the Turians in his origin comic, and he was known to sleep with an Asari Matriarch. Hell, the simple fact that he is willing to work with aliens is a far cry from any real hate group or organization today, who, even if their lives depended on it, would not side with the objective group of their hate out of spite, paranoia, and disgust.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

There is more to racism that being a walking caricature, wearing a pointy hat, vomiting on sight of the target of your hate and generally being antisocial.

 

"They're good enough to sleep with" is perhaps not the best defense to use when accused of racism. Its easy to be hypocritical and hold one set of views for an individual, and hold contradictory views for the group they are from, I.e they're a great person, but I would not want to live in their neighborhood...

 

Either way, I agree Cerberus is not caricature racist, the are not a fun organization though. It depends if you believe they are improving humanity by improving humans, or improving humanity by sabotaging other species to make them worse off.

 

Racism in contemporary society is very unfun issue to discuss, but its probably the lens most people will view species relations in the mass effect universe as we have no other reference point. O

 

It would be a very different issue as most racism today is based on superficial differences in appearance, or different cultures that can't co-exist.

 

Aliens would actually be different (surprise surprise) and while irrational feelings towards them would be pointless, It would be possible to have genuine concerns about their real intentions. Of course like traditional racism a lot of those concerns would be based on lack of data, or mistruth but it might be a lot harder to get that data than it is in human society.

 

 

The Humans of the ME universe are pretty lucky (ignoring the reapers) to come across a galactic government set up by Asari, and not anyone else more interested in taking the resources of our planet (if there are any left by then!) or wiping us out, or generally treating us the way we treat animals today. (Batarians?).

 

Anyway as an aside, I've always been interested in how the economics of space slavery or space piracy would really work. I suppose space travel would have to be cheap and plentiful. With the Batarians I think its more of a cultural need to enslave rather than an economic one, I.e enslaving "lesser" species is worth the extra cost, compared to instituting widespread mechanization.

[CrutchCricket]

 The thing is, beyond Kai Leng (who doesn't even openly exhibit anti-alien prejudices in ME3), we're never shown anyone in Cerberus who is an overt racist, or any sort of racist period.

 

Brooks. Never mind that she's ex-Cerberus when we found out, the fact that she left the future space SS because she thought they were too nice to aliens is a pretty clear message. Maybe Cerberus isn't racist by mandate but they sure do attract more than their fair share of undesirables. In fact I would argue that Brook's existence makes a case for more than just a few radicals on the fringes. Cerberus may not have started racist. But it's surely been thoroughly infected by it by now.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Brooks. Never mind that she's ex-Cerberus when we found out, the fact that she left the future space SS because she thought they were too nice to aliens is a pretty clear message. Maybe Cerberus isn't racist by mandate but they sure do attract more than their fair share of undesirables. In fact I would argue that Brook's existence makes a case for more than just a few radicals on the fringes. Cerberus may not have started racist. But it's surely been thoroughly infected by it by now.

 

There's also their machinations with the Terra Firma party, which has some pretty extreme views that could be seen as racist.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Brooks. Never mind that she's ex-Cerberus when we found out, the fact that she left the future space SS because she thought they were too nice to aliens is a pretty clear message. Maybe Cerberus isn't racist by mandate but they sure do attract more than their fair share of undesirables. In fact I would argue that Brook's existence makes a case for more than just a few radicals on the fringes. Cerberus may not have started racist. But it's surely been thoroughly infected by it by now.

 

I disagree completely. Though I agree with the assertion that Cerberus does attract racists (I wouldn't necessarily say undesirables), I would say that that doesn't necessarily mean that racism has become an inherent institution within the organization. Granted we don't really have a lot of definition either way as to how far or shallow the racism goes. 

[Display Name Owner]

Cerberus would probably feel a bit too much like doing one guy's bidding. TIM has absolute control over absolutely everything, and I don't know how comfortable I'd feel being manservant to a guy that shady. Him being indoctrinated enough to make the stupid decision to move the Human Reaper to Cronos, probably indoctrinating everyone else in the Cerberus management is what led to their shenanigans in ME3 (at least I assume that's what happened). All that tomfoolery because of one guy.

 

If you're in the Alliance, yeah you take orders, but at least the decisions are made by a number of people who we like to think know what they're doing, as opposed to one egomaniac. Plus, I don't like Cerberus' humanity first thing. Humanity don't own the galaxy.

 

If anything I think I'd most like to be a Spectre though.

[Kabooooom]

There's also their machinations with the Terra Firma party, which has some pretty extreme views that could be seen as racist.

Yup. Although, their political machinations there were seemingly more to forward their own goals rather than a racist agenda. Supporting racism does nothing to make humanity stronger. In fact, it hurts it. It is no small wonder though that people associated Cerberus and racism because of stuff like that.