402 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

It's why I support what Cerberus is doing to their troops and civilians. Make them 100% obedient and capable of listening.

 

I'd debate what a 'just cause' is, and whether or not morale is necessary when you have a 100% obedient fighting force. You're not stating how the N7's are superior in this aspect.

 

If you require augmentation to make people willing to obey your commands, maybe the leadership is not very good at its job. Why not just do like the Trade Federation or the Blue Suns and just employ tons of mechs and drones? It's no different, really.

[Kurt M.]

It won't happen, so you don't have to worry about it. Any N7 operative will have to contend with me. And it's me. Anything not a Reaper is going to get hilariously roflstomped.

 

I want machines that can kill. I don't care how it's done. I want them to follow my orders to the letter with no question behind them beyond execution. I'll take creative and cunning warriors who are cookie cutter machines. 

 

Good luck on getting all the tech you need on that. Oh, and the anti-stress pills, too. You're gonna need them

 

There it goes 3000+ years on treaties, books and debates about becoming a good leader...

[DeathScepter]

If you require augmentation to make people willing to obey your commands, maybe the leadership is not very good at its job. Why not just do like the Trade Federation or the Blue Suns and just employ tons of mechs and drones? It's no different, really.

 

 

you can be the best leader in the galaxy and even then, people will rebel and go rogue.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Just to throw this out there, Massively, I don't prioritize civilians over military - in the film Cloverfield, for example, I thought it beyond stupid that the military was depicted flying in trained soldiers for no purpose and then abandoning them in the city they were about to start carpet-bombing in favor of flying out a gaggle of ditzy twenty-somethings instead. The military's job in the Reaper war is to defeat the Reapers. The civilians' job is to support them to that end by any means they can, or, failing that, stay the hell out of their way - live or die. The civvies in the docks are sitting around expecting food to be shovelled at them for no benefit, without offering any assistance in return. They're grasshoppers. They'd best get off their asses and find a way to help.

 

And I agree with that sentiment, but you must also account for what happens when you have neither the time to or ability or need to implement there help.

 

It's where an economic ideal of production possibilities comes in (I think that's it). Anyway, the ideal is that you can only produce so much with a growing workforce before the redundancy of workers begins to inhibit the efficiency of the system. You can get a few civilians to help, but you can't get them all to help. They're an extraneous population. When you say live or die, I interpret one thing for them. Leave them on a world in the Reapers sights, let Reapers approach the most heavily populated areas, then destroy said populated areas.

 

They're a pest. They aren't grasshoppers. They're locusts. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If you require augmentation to make people willing to obey your commands, maybe the leadership is not very good at its job. Why not just do like the Trade Federation or the Blue Suns and just employ tons of mechs and drones? It's no different, really.

 

Not necessarily. I'd love to be charismatic and persuasive enough to get people to see the necessity of my views, but I don't think anyone is like that. That's why it's best to just have a whole force devoted exclusively to that.

 

Believe me, I'd love to have an army of unhackable mechs or synthetics to fight for me.

[KaiserShep]

you can be the best leader in the galaxy and even then, people will rebel and go rogue.

 

Sure, but then if you're at the head of this thrall army, are you the only one that isn't augmented, or are there others alongside you who also have their free will intact?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Good luck on getting all the tech you need on that. Oh, and the anti-stress pills, too. You're gonna need them

 

There it goes 3000+ years on treaties, books and debates about becoming a good leader...

 

All get all the tech and support I need. All I need to do is point the people at the Reapers coming after them. If they still aren't convinced, they can have themselves a good war. Without me, they'll get hilariously curbstomped, but it's their decision. Anti-stress pills are unnecessary for me.

 

Leaders are defined not by their methods or ideals, but by their results. 

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Reapers. 

[Kurt M.]

you can be the best leader in the galaxy and even then, people will rebel and go rogue.

 

If you've managed to magically discover a military discipline, or a political way of keeping EVERYBODY happy, please let your government know, for the sake of all the people on Earth.

 

Not necessarily. I'd love to be charismatic and persuasive enough to get people to see the necessity of my views, but I don't think anyone is like that. That's why it's best to just have a whole force devoted exclusively to that.

 

Believe me, I'd love to have an army of unhackable mechs or synthetics to fight for me.

 

Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Scipio, Gengis Khan...were like that. Should I need to continue?

 

To become like that or not is up to you. A leader is created, not born. Tell that to Demostenes, a guy who nobody gave a **** for him who became one of the best orators in Athens.

 

But don't blame others for your lack of leadership skills or motivation.

[DeathScepter]

that is why having Reaper like implants for improved performance and greater unity within the field and overall organization unity would quite helpful in the long run.

[naddaya]

Honestly, none. Being a Spectre appealed to me more. Sadly the title didn't mean much in the end.

[Kurt M.]

All get all the tech and support I need. All I need to do is point the people at the Reapers coming after them. If they still aren't convinced, they can have themselves a good war. Without me, they'll get hilariously curbstomped, but it's their decision. Anti-stress pills are unnecessary for me.

 

Leaders are defined not by their methods or ideals, but by their results. 

 

Wow, that's a pretty nice combo of both ego and insecurity. You sure remind me of some of our own worst kings.

 

First of all, you're betting all of your cards on merely your supposed "war skills", and I sincerely hope they're just superb, because doing something ALONE is almost a guaranteed way to FAIL. And that lesson is something people knew since the origins of the game of chess. So if you're gonna do things that way, at the VERY least you better be as genious as Hannibal and Scipio were in their time. Otherwise, well...I prefer not to imagine what your future would be

 

Personally, I prefer not to keep all my eggs in a single basket, and have allies and people I can rely on. The Way is also much more pleasant that way.

[zestalyn]

ykno, the last time someone was so hellbent on this Reaperphilia was this guy called the Illusive Man who spent endless resources and lives only to get close enough for indoctrination and shoot himself in the face. womp womp...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Scipio, Gengis Khan...were like that. Should I need to continue?

 

To become like that or not is up to you. A leader is created, not born. Tell that to Demostenes, a guy who nobody gave a **** for him who became one of the best orators in Athens.

 

But don't blame others for your lack of leadership skills or motivation.

 

Whoo boy... especially that last sentence.

 

First things first, you quote leaders but do not give any context to their actions or circumstances or achievements. Yes, you should absolutely continue, because you haven't made a point. You just listed off names. In the world that I'm in, I actively want my people to have the utter cruelty, brutality, unempathetic, and cold drive and resolve to do things that would seem absolutely insane even to those rulers? 

 

I want an army devoted to my every whim. One that I can mold and shape to be what I want to be when I need it to be. No organic force can meet that. I need a force that has neither the weaknesses of organics nor the humanity of them. Something that is designed for no other purpose than to serve as the extension of my will on the battlefront. 

[KaiserShep]

Not necessarily. I'd love to be charismatic and persuasive enough to get people to see the necessity of my views, but I don't think anyone is like that. That's why it's best to just have a whole force devoted exclusively to that.

 

Believe me, I'd love to have an army of unhackable mechs or synthetics to fight for me.

 

If one cannot convince others to see the necessity of his views, this could be indicative of some serious problems with those views to start with (or perhaps just being a poor salesman). It's like saying "Everyone on earth is wrong, and I am right." There's always the possibility, if remote, that this is true, but it's also likely the statement of a madman.

 

that is why having Reaper like implants for improved performance and greater unity within the field and overall organization unity would quite helpful in the long run.

 

I suppose if the Sith lord that ran this freak show had absolute power, it might be able to work for a time, but I'd be willing to bet that assembling an army of augmented slaves could also turn out to be terrifically disastrous as well. There's simply no way to know whether or not it will work out well in the end. It didn't in Mass Effect, and led to the destruction of Cerberus, simply because it's absolutely impossible to enslave the entirety of your race, and they'll eventually come back to bite you in the ass.

[DeathScepter]

that is why you always want a back up plan with those implants.  Improved performance thru implants is a good thing and having a leash is too.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Wow, that's a pretty nice combo of both ego and insecurity. You sure remind me of some of our own worst kings.

 

First of all, you're betting all of your cards on merely your supposed "war skills", and I sincerely hope they're just superb, because doing something ALONE is almost a guaranteed way to FAIL. And that lesson is something people knew since the origins of the game of chess. So if you're gonna do things that way, at the VERY least you better be as genious as Hannibal and Scipio were in their time. Otherwise, well...I prefer not to imagine what your future would be

 

Personally, I prefer not to keep all my eggs in a single basket, and have allies and people I can rely on. The Way is also much more pleasant that way.

 

In the realm of the game, it's made pretty obvious that Shepard is the lynchpin to victory for the galaxy. He knows it, the Reapers know it, the Galaxy knows it, and he knows that they all know it, and they know that he knows it. That's why he can get whatever he wants. And he has the genius and ability to back it up. It's not a question of doing things himself; the Reapers are too big for any one person. But combined, with all the right assets at at the right time and place, Shepard can beat them. He's the only person in a billion years of effort who ever could. That's what the game is. He's the only one that can make it happen. The game is pretty clear on that.

[DeinonSlayer]

And I agree with that sentiment, but you must also account for what happens when you have neither the time to or ability or need to implement there help.

That's why I was talking earlier about diminishing returns; confiscating resources we have no use for (and devoting resources to said confiscation effort). Helping? Good, we'll protect you. Useless, but out of the way and self-sufficient? I wish the best for you - try on your own to live through the war and apply what talents you have to the aftermath; there's going to be a lot of work to do. Clamoring for our resources and making no attempts to reciprocate? "You know, the dock is authorized to fire."

It's where an economic ideal of production possibilities comes in (I think that's it). Anyway, the ideal is that you can only produce so much with a growing workforce before the redundancy of workers begins to inhibit the efficiency of the system. You can get a few civilians to help, but you can't get them all to help. They're an extraneous population. When you say live or die, I interpret one thing for them. Leave them on a world in the Reapers sights, let Reapers approach the most heavily populated areas, then destroy said populated areas.

Gets us back to the debate of whether slowing them down by permitting the harvest or the immediate, fixed benefit of destroying a few Reapers versus speeding them along to the next colony. We know there are more reapers than we can handle by this method (which they could probably adapt to, like how you argue they'd adapt to the tactic of destroying their processor ships). My goal is to maximize time to build the crucible while minimizing casualties in the interest of having a functioning society both during and after the war.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ykno, the last time someone was so hellbent on this Reaperphilia was this guy called the Illusive Man who spent endless resources and lives only to get close enough for indoctrination and shoot himself in the face. womp womp...

 

You presume his example and outcome is the only possible one. I believe fully that the same kind of usage and resources can be used and not end up with an indoctrinated conclusion. Hell, it's what my Shepard does post-war. He makes the galaxy into what he wants it to be, and he has the power to do so.

[KaiserShep]

that is why you always want a back up plan with those implants.  Improved performance thru implants is a good thing and having a leash is too.

 

There's always room for some kind of backup plan if you can think that far ahead, but what would this entail? Anyway, the issue is and always will be the abduction and forcible augmentation of people itself. No matter what you do or how much you remove from the person to make them loyal, they are not so much the issue as what to do with the people who aren't. What do you do, destroy them? Good luck lol.

 

In any case, this whole Cerberus augmented soldier thing doesn't really make any sense. It spent all its time screwing about and shooting at everyone but the reapers. Heck the only time I think that they actually fired shots at each other was when the Normandy shot the Collector vessel, and when the mooks on Sanctuary shoot at the reaper zombies. The Alliance didn't need to give people a reaperized lobotomy to make them shoot at ravagers and banshees.

[CrutchCricket]

Not sure if I should 'like' or report this... agree with the second and third paragraphs.

 

You chose wisely. Massively knows any "you" references I care to make in these contexts are purely in the same hypothetical vein as the discussions themselves. It would get annoying to have to disclaim that every time.

 

It won't happen, so you don't have to worry about it. Any N7 operative will have to contend with me. And it's me. Anything not a Reaper is going to get hilariously roflstomped.

 

I want machines that can kill. I don't care how it's done. I want them to follow my orders to the letter with no question behind them beyond execution. I'll take creative and cunning warriors who are cookie cutter machines. 

 

Oh but it would. In any sane universe that doesn't avoid it simply because it's your headcanon, that's the only logical endpoint. Open rebellion, which you may be able to deal with and covert conspiracies of increasing potency that you simply can't outrun forever. For this I'm thinking more of ruling post-war since that seemed to be the implied conditions of the discussion but it goes for the war as well, perhaps even more so.

 

I don't agree with some of the things you say but I don't judge them, not really. What I would criticize is the openess, the exposed way you would do business. The things you say you'd do may just be shock value on the internet but in this world we keep discussing they'd do nothing but paint a target on your forehead the entire galaxy can see. This is the kind of thing you do with people that don't exist in places that don't exist. Preferrably while you yourself don't exist.

 

And "creative and cunning" and "machine" are mutually exclusive. At least in the sense we're talking about. In the long run I'll take a single operative with proven ingenuity and skill over a hundred drones. Even dedication and loyalty are secondary. Those can be manipulated.

[DeinonSlayer]

Better to have an army with free will capable of acting intelligently without direct oversight in the face of changing circumstances than a horde of drones with no individual initiative who require constant micromanagement. I wonder if Cerberus troops have "controllers" who direct their movements as though they were playing a real-time strategy game.

[zestalyn]

You presume his example and outcome is the only possible one. I believe fully that the same kind of usage and resources can be used and not end up with an indoctrinated conclusion. Hell, it's what my Shepard does post-war. He makes the galaxy into what he wants it to be, and he has the power to do so.

guy got what he was asking for. played with explosives and they blew up in his face to absolutely no one's surprise lol. thats why you get rid of the poison so it doesnt kill everyone else in the room. 

you know the more you go on about this the less and less im understanding why you're pro-cerberus in the first place. so.... you want to enslave as many people as you can...for what again? to destroy and/or control the reapers right? and then when thats done everyone continues to be...brain dead half-synthetic drones? yay..? that just seems redundant and a waste of time and energy. in terms of quality of life, having no free will isn't much different from being blown to smithereens by Harby beams. 

[DeathScepter]

There's always room for some kind of backup plan if you can think that far ahead, but what would this entail? Anyway, the issue is and always will be the abduction and forcible augmentation of people itself. No matter what you do or how much you remove from the person to make them loyal, they are not so much the issue as what to do with the people who aren't. What do you do, destroy them? Good luck lol.

 

In any case, this whole Cerberus augmented soldier thing doesn't really make any sense. It spent all its time screwing about and shooting at everyone but the reapers. Heck the only time I think that they actually fired shots at each other was when the Normandy shot the Collector vessel, and when the mooks on Sanctuary shoot at the reaper zombies. The Alliance didn't need to give people a reaperized lobotomy to make them shoot at ravagers and banshees.

 

 

1) Destroying them will be a last resort.

 

 

2) that is why I do consider ME3 to be poorly written compared to other bioware works.

[KaiserShep]

There's no reason for me to believe that a slave army that is controlled by implants is a viable plan under any circumstances.