402 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

 I wonder if Cerberus troops have "controllers" who direct their movements as though they were playing a real-time strategy game.

 

Would make an interesting spin-off game...

[Kurt M.]

Whoo boy... especially that last sentence.

 

First things first, you quote leaders but do not give any context to their actions or circumstances or achievements. Yes, you should absolutely continue, because you haven't made a point. You just listed off names. In the world that I'm in, I actively want my people to have the utter cruelty, brutality, unempathetic, and cold drive and resolve to do things that would seem absolutely insane even to those rulers? 

 

I want an army devoted to my every whim. One that I can mold and shape to be what I want to be when I need it to be. No organic force can meet that. I need a force that has neither the weaknesses of organics nor the humanity of them. Something that is designed for no other purpose than to serve as the extension of my will on the battlefront. 

 

You want context? They're remembered in History. Isn't that enough?

 

I've memorized the rise of Scipio, his battles against Hannibal, and his campaign in Magnesia, as he's my favourite of the lot, but even the slightest context would make for a tremendous post length, so I'll skip it. But they all have something in common: they didn't ****** needed brain implants or robots to make whole ARMIES move at their command. That's leadership for you.

 

Can't manage that? Your problem. But not the problem of those people you basically want to enslave. They don't have to suffer, or to follow a way they don't want to follow just because YOU think you've the right to overtake THEIR lifes and do whatever you want with them. What if I wanted to make YOU my puppet? What if I became stronger than you and make YOU a tool for MY desires? What would be of YOUR dreams if I were like you? Would you agree with that?

 

 

In the realm of the game, it's made pretty obvious that Shepard is the lynchpin to victory for the galaxy. He knows it, the Reapers know it, the Galaxy knows it, and he knows that they all know it, and they know that he knows it. That's why he can get whatever he wants. And he has the genius and ability to back it up. It's not a question of doing things himself; the Reapers are too big for any one person. But combined, with all the right assets at at the right time and place, Shepard can beat them. He's the only person in a billion years of effort who ever could. That's what the game is. He's the only one that can make it happen. The game is pretty clear on that.

 

As I said, if you can motivate people to follow you, there's no problem in that. Even the Renegade Shepard attracts people more by his/her sheer force of will rather than forcing them to do something, which is something VERY different from what you're saying.

 

--EDIT-- Last post on this matter for today. Good night!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

Oh but it would. In any sane universe that doesn't avoid it simply because it's your headcanon, that's the only logical endpoint. Open rebellion, which you may be able to deal with and covert conspiracies of increasing potency that you simply can't outrun forever. For this I'm thinking more of ruling post-war since that seemed to be the implied conditions of the discussion but it goes for the war as well, perhaps even more so.

 

I don't agree with some of the things you say but I don't judge them, not really. What I would criticize is the openess, the exposed way you would do business. The things you say you'd do may just be shock value on the internet but in this world we keep discussing they'd do nothing but paint a target on your forehead the entire galaxy can see. This is the kind of thing you do with people that don't exist in places that don't exist. Preferrably while you yourself don't exist.

 

And "creative and cunning" and "machine" are mutually exclusive. At least in the sense we're talking about. In the long run I'll take a single operative with proven ingenuity and skill over a hundred drones. Even dedication and loyalty are secondary. Those can be manipulated.

 

They could try to take me down. It would never end well for them. Said conspiracies would fail as well. The endpoint I want to achieve? I am a God. I do what I please. The universe is my plaything. 

 

As we've gotten into discussions about the nature of secrecy (and I remember you had a post on another thread about modern levels of this beyond my reach or clearance that I never got the chance to reply to), it's the nature of control. It's hard to maintain such control when you're in secrecy, and it is vice versa. I disagree with the secrecy aspect. It's not direct, it's too slow, and it's not as efficient and to the point. I'm running the show. People know this. And they know what happens when it's challenged. And on another note, I have a quote from the Doctor 'what's the point of being clever when there's no one to show off too?'

 

I don't think we're on the same wavelength then, because they aren't mutually exclusive in the way I was defining it: I agree, I want an operative who gets results above all else, but I want an operative that is purely dedicated to everything I say that will get me results. Results to always come first, but that's not preclusive to drones.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Better to have an army with free will capable of acting intelligently without direct oversight in the face of changing circumstances than a horde of drones with no individual initiative who require constant micromanagement. I wonder if Cerberus troops have "controllers" who direct their movements as though they were playing a real-time strategy game.

 

I agree; To clarify, I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that as far as motivation and control goes, my authority, and their recognition of my authority and will over them, is absolute.

[DeinonSlayer]

Would make an interesting spin-off game...

I've floated the idea before. Multiplayer mode where one side consists of individuals controlling a single soldier, FPS style, with another player controlling the opposing force via an RTS interface. There was a half-life 2 mod which did exactly that with rebels versus Combine.

[DeinonSlayer]

I agree; To clarify, I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that as far as motivation and control goes, my authority, and their recognition of my authority and will over them, is absolute.

Sounds like there's a model for that already.

"For Kane!"

My canon said this to EDI: "When I give a legitimate order, I expect it to be carried out. I'll be responsible for its costs." When she then asked about changing core programming, I went with the response that "only you can make that decision. That's the point of free will." I don't see it as a contradiction.

Tying everything directly to one person demands micromanagement by that person, reducing efficiency.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

1) You want context? They're remembered in History. Isn't that enough? I've memorized the rise of Scipio, his battles against Hannibal, and his campaign in Magnesia, as he's my favourite of the lot, but even the slightest context would make for a tremendous post length, so I'll skip it. But they all have something in common: they didn't ****** needed brain implants or robots to make whole ARMIES move at their command. That's leadership for you.

 

2) Can't manage that? Your problem. But not the problem of those people you basically want to enslave. They don't have to suffer, or to follow a way they don't want to follow just because YOU think you've the right to overtake THEIR lifes and do whatever you want with them. What if I wanted to make YOU my puppet? What if I became stronger than you and make YOU a tool for MY desires? What would be of YOUR dreams if I were like you? Would you agree with that?

 

3) As I said, if you can motivate people to follow you, there's no problem in that. Even the Renegade Shepard attracts people more by his/her sheer force of will rather than forcing them to do something, which is something VERY different from what you're saying.

 

 

1) Yes, I know. But they couldn't make those armies move in whatever direction they desired. They were bound to their army. Their army wasn't bound to them. I can inspire loyalty and dedication and results from my army without brain implants. And with them, I can get them to become an extension of my physical self. They are me. I am them. They will do as I wish because they are me. That's what I want.

 

2). Absolutely. If you had said power, you wouldn't be worrying about the concerns of others would you? What gives me the right? I do. I'm the winner, the guy who will win this war. They have their choice of me or the Reapers. Bend to my will, or be destroyed by them. The choice is theirs. I don't care what they choose. 

 

3) I can motivate people to follow me. That's not in question. I want more. I want them to be me. To define them. To have them be the extension of my will.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Sounds like there's a model for that already.

"For Kane!"

My canon said this to EDI: "When I give a legitimate order, I expect it to be carried out. I'll be responsible for its costs." When she then asked about changing core programming, I went with the response that "only you can make that decision. That's the point of free will."

 

I told her not to change a thing unless I told her too. 

[CrutchCricket]

They could try to take me down. It would never end well for them. Said conspiracies would fail as well. The endpoint I want to achieve? I am a God. I do what I please. The universe is my plaything. 

 

As we've gotten into discussions about the nature of secrecy (and I remember you had a post on another thread about modern levels of this beyond my reach or clearance that I never got the chance to reply to), it's the nature of control. It's hard to maintain such control when you're in secrecy, and it is vice versa. I disagree with the secrecy aspect. It's not direct, it's too slow, and it's not as efficient and to the point. I'm running the show. People know this. And they know what happens when it's challenged. And on another note, I have a quote from the Doctor 'what's the point of being clever when there's no one to show off too?'

 

I don't think we're on the same wavelength then, because they aren't mutually exclusive in the way I was defining it: I agree, I want an operative who gets results above all else, but I want an operative that is purely dedicated to everything I say that will get me results. Results to always come first, but that's not preclusive to drones.

 

Then pick Control. Because that's the only way you'll ever plausibly pull it off.

 

And secrecy may not be as direct or fast but it is more stable. And far more sustainable. What use is a perfect society that only lasts three months, or three years or even three hundred years? At the end of the day you will  get taken down one way or another. And even if I allow that you defeat every attempt against you, you'll still die of old age, or desease, or both. And what happens to your order then? It crumbles into so much dust and given how many people you've pissed off, it will actively be buried. And because any other path of profit was likely cut off in favor of your power, they'll also be weaker for it. A society that exists only because of one will or one power is one not worth existing at all, regardless of how strong that will or power is. And I am a little disappointed that after all this it's revealed you put your personal pride and ego above achieving the best results in the best way possible.

 

Dedication is irrelevant. It can be manipulated to get the results anyway.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

guy got what he was asking for. played with explosives and they blew up in his face to absolutely no one's surprise lol. thats why you get rid of the poison so it doesnt kill everyone else in the room. 

you know the more you go on about this the less and less im understanding why you're pro-cerberus in the first place. so.... you want to enslave as many people as you can...for what again? to destroy and/or control the reapers right? and then when thats done everyone continues to be...brain dead half-synthetic drones? yay..? that just seems redundant and a waste of time and energy. in terms of quality of life, having no free will isn't much different from being blown to smithereens by Harby beams. 

 

I disagree. I'd manipulate my skill of the poison to use it to my advantage. I don't see any inherent fault in using Reaper Tech.

 

To destroy the Reapers and take control of their remains. That is my goal. When that's done, everyone bends to my will (whether they realize it or not and whether I'm subtle about it or not). I'm not out for their gain. I'm out for mine. 

 

Call me the Master, Rassilon, the Time Lord Victorious. Post-War, I will be a physical god. 

[DeinonSlayer]

I told her not to change a thing unless I told her too.

Therein lies the difference. I give her an order and expect her to follow it, but I also want her to use her own initiative to determine the best means by which to carry it out. I don't know her core programming as well as she does - if by changing it she can better achieve the goal I set out for her, so much the better (if I had also defined the means to her, I would expect her to adhere to them as well - but, again, micromanagement; how specific orders need to be is situational). Loosening the reigns can have a positive effect.

[DeathScepter]

don't claim to be a god, that is your second in command's job, take note of that Massive.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Then pick Control. Because that's the only way you'll ever plausibly pull it off.

 

And secrecy may not be as direct or fast but it is more stable. And far more sustainable. What use is a perfect society that only lasts three months, or three years or even three hundred years? At the end of the day you will  get taken down one way or another. And even if I allow that you defeat every attempt against you, you'll still die of old age, or desease, or both. And what happens to your order then? It crumbles into so much dust and given how many people you've pissed off, it will actively be buried. And because any other path of profit was likely cut off in favor of your power, they'll also be weaker for it. A society that exists only because of one will or one power is one not worth existing at all, regardless of how strong that will or power is. And I am a little disappointed that after all this it's revealed you put your personal pride and ego above achieving the best results in the best way possible.

 

Dedication is irrelevant. It can be manipulated to get the results anyway.

 

I can do it in Destroy. Logically, you can pull it off anyway you want. 

 

What happens to my order after my death? Who said anything about dying? I'm going to destroy, so that I can take control to eventually enact synthesis. I'm not making this to be an order and eternal name for myself. I'm making myself god, or as close to one as I can be.

 

I disagree and am disappointed by your inability to see that personal will or power isn't the end you want. The thing about best results and best ways in general is that it's rather subjective. We have different views on what is the 'best result' and what is the 'best way'. The best way is me becoming a god. 

 

Yes. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that I want people who get results to be absolutely loyal to me.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

don't claim to be a god, that is your second in command's job, take note of that Massive.

 

Eh, probably. Either way, I'll be in a state of ascendance. Of course, I speak in full character as myself. Shepard might have a few other things keeping him grounded to humanity. Miranda and a few others have basically become his morality chain.

 

Without them, you start seeing a being that is very similar to the Doctor during the final minutes of 'The Waters of Mars'.

[DeathScepter]

Eh, probably. Either way, I'll be in a state of ascendance. Of course, I speak in full character as myself. Shepard might have a few other things keeping him grounded to humanity. Miranda and a few others have basically become his morality chain.

 

Without them, you start seeing a being that is very similar to the Doctor during the final minutes of 'The Waters of Mars'.

 

a tvtroper are you? I have seen that scene with the Doctor.  Miranda, there is nothing wrong with a sexy XO at your side regardless of the situation.*drools like a idiot*

[MassivelyEffective0730]

a tvtroper are you? I have seen that scene with the Doctor.  Miranda, there is nothing wrong with a sexy XO at your side regardless of the situation.*drools like a idiot*

 

Honestly, I actually like the Doctor when he's like that. Poor Ten, he's the universe's ragdoll. But damn, I do agree with him there, even if he did come close to Rassilon territory.

 

Now there was an inspired man: Willing to completely annihilate the universe (and it's implied all other universes) to ascend himself and the Time Lords to a state of ascendance. 

 

Great quotes though: 

 

Adelaide: You saved us?

The Doctor: Just think, though. Your daughter and your daughter's daughter, you can see them again. Family reunion.

Adelaide: [Shakes her head "no"] But I'm supposed to be dead.

The Doctor: Not anymore.

Adelaide: But... Susie... my granddaughter... wasn't she supposed to become... we'll never exist now.

The Doctor: Nah, Captain Adelaide can inspire her face-to-face. Different details, but the story's the same.

Adelaide: You can't know that! And if my family changes... the whole of history could change! The future of the human race! No one should have that much power!

The Doctor: Tough.

Adelaide: [Backs away from the Doctor, unsure of what is going on] You should have left us there.

The Doctor: Adelaide, I've done this sort of thing before. In small ways, saved some little people. But never someone as important as you. Ooh, I'm good!

Adelaide: Little people? What, like Mia and Yuri? Who decides they're so unimportant? You?

The Doctor: For a long time now, I thought I was just a survivor, but I'm not. I'm the winner. That's who I am. A Time Lord victorious.

Adelaide: And there's no one to stop you?

The Doctor: No.

Adelaide: [Noticeably angry] This is wrong, Doctor! I don't care who you are! The Time Lord victorious is wrong!

The Doctor: That's for me to decide. Now, you'd better get home. Oh, it's all locked up. You've been away. Still, that's easy...

[uses the Sonic Screwdriver to unlock and open the door to Adelaide's house, then puts the Sonic Screwdriver away]

The Doctor: All yours.

Adelaide: Is there nothing you can't do?

The Doctor: Not anymore.

Adelaide: [Walks inside the house, takes out her gun, shuts the door, and kills herself]

The Doctor: [Turns back to the TARDIS, but takes a look back right after Adelaide kills herself. Shocked, he realizes the full effect of what he has done. He has changed the future. Adelaide Brooke died on Earth, rather than Mars as she was supposed to. There are two survivors around to tell her story]

Adelaide: [Echo, in the Doctor's mind] I don't care who you are! The Time Lord victorious is wrong!

The Doctor: [Sees Ood Sigma] I've gone too far! Is this it? My death? Is it time?

[Ood Sigma disappears. The Doctor runs back into the TARDIS and starts the dematerialization process. The Cloister Bell rings]

The Doctor: No!

 

Nightmare fuel for you: 

[DeinonSlayer]

Reminds me of the way the Formics in Ender's Game fight versus the humans.

...Just re-read the sequence, and realized it probably supports Massively's position more than I remembered. I was only really remembering the tail end of what's below.

Ender began to see how well the buggers used seemingly random flight paths to create confusion, how they used decoys and false retreats to draw the I.F. ships into traps. Some battles had been cut into many scenes, which were scattered through the various videos; by watching them in sequence, Ender was able to reconstruct whole battles. He began to see things that the official commentators never mentioned. They were always trying to arouse pride in human accomplishments and loathing of the buggers, but Ender began to wonder how humanity had won at all. Human ships were sluggish; fleets responded to new circumstances unbearably slowly, while the bugger fleet seemed to act in perfect unity, responding to each challenge instantly. Of course, in the First Invasion the human ships were completely unsuited to fast combat, but then so were the bugger ships; it was only in the Second Invasion that the ships and weapons were swift and deadly.

So it was from the buggers, not the humans, that Ender learned strategy. He felt ashamed and afraid of learning from them, since they were the most terrible enemy, ugly and murderous and loathsome. But they were also very good at what they did. To a point. They always seemed to follow one basic strategy only—gather the greatest number of ships at the key point of conflict. They never did anything surprising, anything that seemed to show either brilliance or stupidity in a subordinate officer. Discipline was apparently very tight.

[KaiserShep]

What does Cerberus has that N7 doesn't? I am found of Cerberus but skeptical of their experiments an true nature. What does Cerberus offer that N7 does not?

 

Leather seats.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

What does Cerberus has that N7 doesn't? I am found of Cerberus but skeptical of their experiments an true nature. What does Cerberus offer that N7 does not?

Mind-controlling implants

[zestalyn]

What does Cerberus has that N7 doesn't? I am found of Cerberus but skeptical of their experiments an true nature. What does Cerberus offer that N7 does not?

a really cute makeover. like glowy-eyes-and-veiny-skin kind of cute 

also just feel like pointing out, this thread has kind of veered several light years away from the topic, cause while I thought this whole time we were debating you know, N7 vs Cerberus, its now clear we've actually been debating N7, a liiittle bit of Cerberus, vs this one guy who just wants to be god and doesn't actually care about the protection nor advancement of humanity   shrug 

[DeinonSlayer]

a really cute makeover. like glowy-eyes-and-veiny-skin kind of cute

Since when does "cute" win battles?

[De1ta0m3ga]

Mind-controlling implants

 

OP Harriers and Dragoon mega-armor.

[CrutchCricket]

I can do it in Destroy. Logically, you can pull it off anyway you want. 

 

What happens to my order after my death? Who said anything about dying? I'm going to destroy, so that I can take control to eventually enact synthesis. I'm not making this to be an order and eternal name for myself. I'm making myself god, or as close to one as I can be.

 

I disagree and am disappointed by your inability to see that personal will or power isn't the end you want. The thing about best results and best ways in general is that it's rather subjective. We have different views on what is the 'best result' and what is the 'best way'. The best way is me becoming a god. 

 

Yes. I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that I want people who get results to be absolutely loyal to me.

.

Suffice to say I think you've finally gone off the deep end. I'm having trouble taking most of this post seriously. If you've been taking the piss out of everyone thus far, my sincere congratulations.

 

Oh and if only results matter why do you care about loyalty? Seems like you're contradicting yourself there. Someone can hate your guts and want you dead yet still end up doing what you want. If they succeed it should be no worse, by your philosophy.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

.

Suffice to say I think you've finally gone off the deep end. I'm having trouble taking most of this post seriously. If you've been taking the ****** out of everyone thus far, my sincere congratulations.

 

Oh and if only results matter why do you care about loyalty? Seems like you're contradicting yourself there. Someone can hate your guts and want you dead yet still end up doing what you want. If they succeed it should be no worse, by your philosophy.

 

Why do you think that? I'm not going to say whether or not I am fishing for a reaction, but hypothetically, I'm not adverse to hunting for immortality and transhumanism. I think it can be achieved. But yeah, Godhood is something to be desired in my opinion. 

 

Why care about loyalty? Simply put, a guy who hates your guts but gets results is a terrible person to have working for you. It means they hate you and would give a very close shave to fighting you. When I kill them, I'd be losing a valuable asset. That's not very practical. I'd like my master-class warriors, spies, and saboteurs to be drones as well. My philosophy wouldn't be very practical if it didn't account for non-mission related results. That's a misunderstanding of it on your part.