304 réponses à ce sujet

[The Don's Hound]

Aiming is such a problem in this game, my my, it's as if you actually need to put in effort.

[Turian Master Race]

How do I know if I am playing Human Sentinel or Asari Adept since their biotic explosions seem to look pretty similar to me?

 

Maybe the Asari BE is more blue than the human one.

 

Can you combo stasis with warp on the human sentinel?

[me0120]

It is not about "spam Throw a few more times in a game" it is about how you kill.

 

a, If you bring a claymore you kill with the gun.

 

b, If you bring an acolyte you kill with the combos (pull+reeve, singulariy+shockwave etc).

 

In case a, you are "playing the gun" because you are killing with the gun. In case b, you are "playing the kit" because you are getting kills by the combos specified by the kit.

 

Bah. Acolyte completely changed the way casters work. I consider that playing the gun.

[megabeast37215]

So in this bizarre logical construct, if I put a Claymore on a Human Soldier, am I playing the gun or the class?  Keep in mind I can run the Talon on him and combo twice as many targets in the same amount of time.

You're playing a class designed primarily as a weapon platform. If you got Talon and try to make ammo combos, that is not what the class was meant to do because when it was designed, you could barely make any ammo combos except for Tech Bursts.

Each character clearly has a build that was meant by the developers to be used as a powers first build.. for the most part. I don't think either Marksman class or the Adrenaline Rush classes were designed that way.. those classes have their signature power designed to augment weapon damage. However, the overwhelming majority of classes have powers that have synergy.. by putting the Claymore on all the things, you ruin the synergy between powers for a lot of kits, especially engineers bc their priming windows are so short.. biotics not so much, grenade kits not at all.

Crap.. I got more to say but I gotta go.

[Turian Master Race]

Bah. Acolyte completely changed the way casters work. I consider that playing the gun.

 

Clearly the acolyte makes it very easy to setup combos. However, the key difference is in the intentions. With the acolyte you want to use your combos, with the clamore you want to shot the enemy in the head. Two different playstyles.

[me0120]

Clearly the acolyte makes it very easy to setup combos. However, the key difference is in the intentions. With the acolyte you want to use your combos, with the clamore you want to shot the enemy in the head. Two different playstyles.

 

What? Acolyte + Throw? Acolyte + [insert any power]?

 

Just because you aren't using the gun for finishing doesn't mean you aren't playing the gun.

[capn233]

Can you combo stasis with warp on the human sentinel?

 

Nope.  But then again that combo is mediocre compared to Warp + Throw since both of those have detonate evolutions.  Is spec'ing into mediocre powers also a requirement for playing the class now?  I can't use Sabotage to buff Sentry Turret on anything but the Saboteur, so does that mean I am only playing Saboteur if I spec Turret?

 

You're playing a class designed primarily as a weapon platform. If you got Talon and try to make ammo combos, that is not what the class was meant to do because when it was designed, you could barely make any ammo combos except for Tech Bursts.

Each character clearly has a build that was meant by the developers to be used as a powers first build.. for the most part. I don't think either Marksman class or the Adrenaline Rush classes were designed that way.. those classes have their signature power designed to augment weapon damage. However, the overwhelming majority of classes have powers that have synergy.. by putting the Claymore on all the things, you ruin the synergy between powers for a lot of kits, especially engineers bc their priming windows are so short.. biotics not so much, grenade kits not at all.

Crap.. I got more to say but I gotta go.

 

Now you are making assumptions about Bioware's intentions with the game.  I would argue that what they actually intended is that powers supplement weapon damage and vice versa.  This becomes evident if you think about the PRS / cooldown formula, and the fact that you must equip a weapon on every character.  There is no character meant to be played purely as a power class and no class meant to be played purely as a weapon class.  That doesn't mean Bioware intended to prevent people from playing power only, it simply means that they never had a pure power use class in Mass Effect historically, and they didn't seem to include any here.

 

It is also misleading to claim that it was only possible to do Tech Bursts at release.  All of the combos existed, even if they didn't have easy detonation.  It is also unclear that Bioware didn't intend for any class to be able to do whatever combo they wanted, given that tech combos are detonated by any direct damage power regardless of its type, and the fact that they allow you to use any ammo type on any class.

 

Furthermore it would be an oversimplification to assume that a biotic, like the Asari Adept, is just built to spam powers and combo.  Does warp not have several debuff evolutions including a 15% damage taken debuff?  There is a reason that evolution applies to powers.  What about the fact that Warp Ammo gives the most damage when used with biotic primers?

 

What? Acolyte + Throw? Acolyte + [insert any power]?

 

Just because you aren't using the gun for finishing doesn't mean you aren't playing the gun.

 

If you believe in playing the gun, then Acolyte should be on whatever magic black list, absolutely.

 

The game would be better without the Acolyte (and actually I think Arc Pistol should have been designed as a shield / barrier busting weapon, but that is a longer discussion), and it would not be a stretch to say that it altered the metagame for many characters.

 

I am inclined to believe that "playing the gun" basically just originated from people who didn't like others playing classes in a manner that they did not prefer.  It really isn't even pure min-maxing, even if that was incorporated later due to Bioware's seeming disregard for weapon encumbrance principle. Maybe when a logically consistent set of rules for "playing the class" is posted, one that doesn't have a laundry list of exceptions and special clauses, I will be convinced.

[Turian Master Race]

Nope.  But then again that combo is mediocre compared to Warp + Throw since both of those have detonate evolutions.  Is spec'ing into mediocre powers also a requirement for playing the class now?

 

It has nothing to do whether it is mediocre or not. Can you do it on the Human Sentinel or not? You have answered your own question.

[Turian Master Race]

I am inclined to believe that "playing the gun" basically just originated from people who didn't like others playing classes in a manner that they did not prefer.  It really isn't even pure min-maxing, even if that was incorporated later due to Bioware's seeming disregard for weapon encumbrance principle. Maybe when a logically consistent set of rules for "playing the class" is posted, one that doesn't have a laundry list of exceptions and special clauses, I will be convinced.

 

You can play as you will I don't care. However, if you don't see the difference between shooting someone in the head with a claymore, or killing it with biotic/tech combos then there is no point in continuing the debate.

[megabeast37215]

You can play as you will I don't care. However, if you don't see the difference between shooting someone in the head with a claymore, or killing it with biotic/tech combos then there is no point in continuing the debate.

He clearly doesn't. There is only one playstyle.. gun focused.

[me0120]

You can play as you will I don't care. However, if you don't see the difference between shooting someone in the head with a claymore, or killing it with biotic/tech combos then there is no point in continuing the debate.

 

The problem with saying that is, I can toss Incendiary ammo on the Claymore and kill with explosions too. The fact that it has the ability to OSK means I can prioritize when to use powers and when not too. The point is "Playing the gun" is a stupid saying, and it always has been. 

[megawug]

You can play as you will I don't care. However, if you don't see the difference between shooting someone in the head with a claymore, or killing it with biotic/tech combos then there is no point in continuing the debate.

 

I think people are missing a whole other point.  If you've played in a biotic or tech duo, then you realize how important teamwork, timing and cooldowns are.  I had the good fortune of playing in both a biotic duo and a tech duo, and it was amazing fun to be able to work together to set up explosions.  My AA was spec'ed for a Justicar partner, and my HE was spec'ed for the FQE.

 

Most people play as individuals, so weapons will do more damage even on casters.  But in a duo, BEs and FEs can do considerably more damage, given the two people have good teamwork, of course.

 

Unfortunately, most of the duos I've seen are more like "duels", where each player is trying to outscore the other.  It's really too bad that there's so little teamwork in a team game.

[me0120]

 

Unfortunately, most of the duos I've seen are more like "duels", where each player is trying to outscore the other.  It's really too bad that there's so little teamwork in a team game.

 

Pick who you duo with, silly!

 

Duo's are by far my favorite. Theme'd duo's like the Female Quarian's with Sabotage + Incinerate and Sentry Turret, Geth Engineer + Paladin, Double BroNaughts, etc. Reavalicious was one of my favorites when I first started doing duos, featuring a Justicar and a Drell Adept (no clusters ).

[megabeast37215]

 
Now you are making assumptions about Bioware's intentions with the game.  I would argue that what they actually intended is that powers supplement weapon damage and vice versa.  This becomes evident if you think about the PRS / cooldown formula, and the fact that you must equip a weapon on every character.  There is no character meant to be played purely as a power class and no class meant to be played purely as a weapon class.  That doesn't mean Bioware intended to prevent people from playing power only, it simply means that they never had a pure power use class in Mass Effect historically, and they didn't seem to include any here.
 
It is also misleading to claim that it was only possible to do Tech Bursts at release.  All of the combos existed, even if they didn't have easy detonation.  It is also unclear that Bioware didn't intend for any class to be able to do whatever combo they wanted, given that tech combos are detonated by any direct damage power regardless of its type, and the fact that they allow you to use any ammo type on any class.
 
Furthermore it would be an oversimplification to assume that a biotic, like the Asari Adept, is just built to spam powers and combo.  Does warp not have several debuff evolutions including a 15% damage taken debuff?  There is a reason that evolution applies to powers.  What about the fact that Warp Ammo gives the most damage when used with biotic primers?
 

Biower didn't have a character designed primarily as a power user? Then WTF is the Fury? Or the Slayer? Or the Novaguard? Or the MQE? Or the (poorly executed) FQE? I can remember when the Talon Merc was introduced and one of the devs said, "with his bow you won't need your weapon hardly at all." Please son.. of course there are kits that are designed with powers first and others designed with weapon use first (Marksman classes). You would have to be trying not to see that, to not see it.

Of course Warp has debuff evolutions.. IMO this was designed to suppliment the lighter/weaker weapons that allow for a fast cooldown like pistols and smgs. This is further evidenced by the armor weakening evo.. which was made before the SMG HVB existed.

I'm not trying to say they made kits to be SOLELY one or the other.. I'm trying to say their design is slanted to lean one way or the other. Why is the tech combo window for Incinerate and Overload 3 seconds if the Human Engi was not meant to have a fast cooldown? Maybe it was done so you couldn't slap a Claymore on them and still have access to 6+6 combos.. maybe, just maybe, heavy weapon use was discouraged by design.. and if you can't make tech combos with the Human Engi, then why play it? You're just playing a gimped Ghost or SI at that point.. bc all you're going to be doing is overload/energy drain and then shooting.. just like the infiltrators.

Speaking of which.. why does Warp ammo give the biggest bonus? So Adepts can keep up with their guns obvs.. and the game won't be slanted in favor of infiltrators as much. I'm not saying you can/should go all powers all the time.. I'm pretty confident you're supposed to shoot on cooldown (unless Novaguard/Slayer and a few others).

You know what.. F it. You're not gonna change your mind, you'll sit here and argue till you're blue in the face. Kiss my ass. Have a nice day.

[Caineghis2500]

You have too much 2cents mega

[me0120]

That was a lot for only arguing the degree to which weapons are supposed to compliment powers. 

[megabeast37215]

That was a lot for only arguing the degree to which weapons are supposed to compliment powers.

He refuses to see any other perspectives, is willingly ignorant and IMO, arguing for the sake of arguing.. trolling perhaps. I've no time for such shenanigans.

If he wants to sit there and say that using heavy ass weapons doesn't change a caster build which makes 6+6 power combos into a gimped soldier build, then he's a moron.

[q5tyhj]

I usually take the CSMG as a secondary just in case stuff goes down. That's what I did on my alt account. Took an arc pistol on the collector and did really well with it. He's right up there with the justicar and the drell for crowd priming.

 

Yeah it took me a while to find a gun I really like on him. I tried the PPR (weapons build) for a long time, and while I love the PPR, I felt like I was missing out by not using a more powers/BE-focused build. But I use Talon on everything (its my first and only level X, after all), Hurricane would be an abomination, and my CSMG is probably my lowest level UR, and I feel like at level 5 its ammo and damage are still problematic. May be the UR I'm most looking forward to leveling up some more at this point. Until then, I doubt I'll be using anything besides Arc Pistol on that creepy insect bastard.

[Dovakiin_N7]

With mega here. Claymoar is great at all. But saying it is a caster weapon, baffles me. Whatever .....

[Dovakiin_N7]

Take for ex. BugAdept. You can invest in his weapons passive, slap PPR and he becomes 'weapons' class.

Invest in power passives, slap CSMG and he is a Caster. I would not slap PPR on him if I took power passives on him. Which is also fun way to play him, even though I score better with PPR-weapons passive on him. I find that boring. Similarly I would not slap claymoar or anything that gimps my cool down so much that I could not detonate my own combo. Then I only play gold and only occasionally platinum.

Play as you like but I thought understanding was basic, if you get most of your kills from power, it's a power class. Else you are playing it as a weapons class. Playing HE as weapons class? Meh...but whatever.

[Kislitsin]

@Mega: man, you dissapoint me severly in those threads. You are a cool guy, I share a lot of your opinions. But every time we have a "claymore discussion" you end up with argument "because you can only play gun and think that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid" or smth like that.

Capn provided good arguments regarding gunplay in ME series, those were ignored.

 

To all "kit players", guys, most adepts/engiees I've seen are played with either Hurricane/lolcolyte or Talon. And let me outline those weapons a bit:

 

Hurricane: has more punch and deeps than assault rifle, recoil can easily be compensated (also - no jaw scale). With warp ammo it deals 1200-2400 burst deeps without weapon passives (depends on protection).  In three seconds it does around 6000 damage vs armor and around 8000 damage vs barriers not counting penetration and accidental headshots. And don't forget that among four "bigbosses": 1 suffers severly from tripplehits, another suffers from doublehits in his headshot area (which also provides 2x multiplier and is quite large), third has a barriers presenting half of her HP (thus suffers from warp ammo even more than pure armor HP would have).

It's only drawback (accuracy) is not significant for a boss killer weapon.

Chit, TSol with it is better than with any assault rifle.

It's stupidly overpowered weapon.

 

Lolcolyte: that abomination should have never existed. Biower give it to us because a lot of "kit players" were unable to deal with phantoms ("oh, why should I shoot or [gasp] headshot somebody? I play space magician! gimme the power that would kill bi*tch immediately! biover plaz lizards wizards underpowered!"). Even though it's easy to apply projectile power to her, even with predator/shurikaine.

 

Talon: Weapon, that can deal almost as much gore as claymore with one shot (assuming protection modifiers), that has 6 shots, better accuracy (which becomes ridiculously tight with hard cover) and weights nothing??? Why the hell not? Casters need some light weapons.

With the best casters being GI, TSol and Destroyer.

 

Wraith - simillar story, but actually a bit more balanced (less deeps - no defence modifiers and no pistol HVB).

On the deeps part -read hurrdurr deeps rant.

 

Arc Pistol: Dramatically overbuffed weapon. Great accuracy, great capacity, light weight, ignores shieldgate and OHKills a lot of mobs. Also, has a great one clip DPS and big clip. That allows to one-clip a lot of bosses.

 

Guys, please, don't say you play the kit if you use anything described above. You play the weapon, ridiculously overbuffed weapon, with frequent combos on the background.

 

Why you no use lets say Tempest and Carniflex on your casters? Than you will really play the kit, with some additional damage from the gun. Palladin is a great weapon, capable to 1-2HSK any mook, why most power-kit-players don't suggest it (or suggest only for "stasis-sniping"?)? Palladin VHA is a lot of fun, but now you need not to shoot magic bubble (lolcolyte) without aiming and not to spray ULMG with magical ammo at anything blue, you need to aim a bit, need to time your combos, need to be much more aware.

 

Eviscerator is an uncommon shooty that weights less than wraith, it still can kill things (assuming it's not your main source of damage) and almost EVERYONE has it at X. Why you need wraith, that is heavier (esp at lower levels) when evi allows to have 200+ CD if your gun isn't your main source of damage?

 

Everyone can play whatever he wants, I have no right to say how something should be played. But arguments "play claymore not kit" in the light of "lol-talon/arc/culyte/wraith/hurrdurr" usage look... biased.

[ALTBOULI]

Claymore is definitely better than CSMG on a caster.  CSMG works ok for Incendiary Shenanigans, but Claymore actually kills enemy units and its sustained armor DPS as typically modded is superior to CSMG's single clip armor DPS.
 
As for the rest... they are all way up on the overpowered weapons list, so it may in fact be wiser to take them than the Claymore from a max / min perspective.

I disagree with this, The claymore is not 'definitely' a better caster weapon than the CSMG. Like a few on here I would argue that it is not a caster weapon in the first place, sure you can put a Claymore on some caster kits and do well with it but it would not be optimal given the weight of the weapon. The CSMG is one of, if not the best caster weapon in my oppinion.

In the quote above you have suggested that the Claymore is better because it can kill enemies faster but as already mentioned most of the damage coming from caster kits comes from their powers. Personally I would prefer to use my powers more frequently...

[Kislitsin]

Oh, also. My VHA, for example, has a 3,6 CD on every power even with "non-weight-glitched" claymore. Reason:

 

1. He has a full specced passives, with 4b, 5b(dem sweet headshots) and 6a. Most of the "kit players" claim that last evo to be useless (why do we need it? we have a lot of op light weapons), a lot also tend to do no passives builds (which is actually min/max in terms of DO/survivability, with "light caster guns").

 

2. He has a 5b, 6b and 6a evos in singularity, warp and shokwave respectfully. Those evos that are claimed to be "useless" by a lot of "kit-players"

 

3. He uses level 3 PE modules, consumables that are claimed to be useless by min/max players.

 

He suffered a lot to wield the claymoar. He is a real glass canon. He still should think wether he should or shouldn't cast. He isn't scrub and he can just kill a pair of mooks with his gun (yeah, cry about it, acolyte fans, he can just simply rip a pair of heads and save his CD for that meaty brute, instead of lolcolyte_shot-sing/warp-warp/shockwave "magic"). He enjoys reload cancelling and hiding with his powers. He can detonate singularity combo twice, but doesn't have a room for mistake.

 

He is an aliance marine corps field adept, honored warrior of mass effect series, series that has always been concentrated on guns, with powers being an assistance features. He proudly wields his M-300 and laughs in the eyes of no-passives acolyte cowards.

[Dovakiin_N7]

@Mega: man, you dissapoint me severly in those threads. You are a cool guy, I share a lot of your opinions. But every time we have a "claymore discussion" you end up with argument "because you can only play gun and think that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid" or smth like that.

Capn provided good arguments regarding gunplay in ME series, those were ignored.

 

To all "kit players", guys, most adepts/engiees I've seen are played with either Hurricane/lolcolyte or Talon. And let me outline those weapons a bit:

 

Hurricane: has more punch and deeps than assault rifle, recoil can easily be compensated (also - no jaw scale). With warp ammo it deals 1200-2400 burst deeps without weapon passives (depends on protection).  In three seconds it does around 6000 damage vs armor and around 8000 damage vs barriers not counting penetration and accidental headshots. And don't forget that among four "bigbosses": 1 suffers severly from tripplehits, another suffers from doublehits in his headshot area (which also provides 2x multiplier and is quite large), third has a barriers presenting half of her HP (thus suffers from warp ammo even more than pure armor HP would have).

It's only drawback (accuracy) is not significant for a boss killer weapon.

Chit, TSol with it is better than with any assault rifle.

It's stupidly overpowered weapon.

 

Lolcolyte: that abomination should have never existed. Biower give it to us because a lot of "kit players" were unable to deal with phantoms ("oh, why should I shoot or [gasp] headshot somebody? I play space magician! gimme the power that would kill bi*tch immediately! biover plaz lizards wizards underpowered!"). Even though it's easy to apply projectile power to her, even with predator/shurikaine.

 

Talon: Weapon, that can deal almost as much gore as claymore with one shot (assuming protection modifiers), that has 6 shots, better accuracy (which becomes ridiculously tight with hard cover) and weights nothing??? Why the hell not? Casters need some light weapons.

With the best casters being GI, TSol and Destroyer.

 

Wraith - simillar story, but actually a bit more balanced (less deeps - no defence modifiers and no pistol HVB).

On the deeps part -read hurrdurr deeps rant.

 

Arc Pistol: Dramatically overbuffed weapon. Great accuracy, great capacity, light weight, ignores shieldgate and OHKills a lot of mobs. Also, has a great one clip DPS and big clip. That allows to one-clip a lot of bosses.

 

Guys, please, don't say you play the kit if you use anything described above. You play the weapon, ridiculously overbuffed weapon, with frequent combos on the background.

 

Why you no use lets say Tempest and Carniflex on your casters? Than you will really play the kit, with some additional damage from the gun. Palladin is a great weapon, capable to 1-2HSK any mook, why most power-kit-players don't suggest it (or suggest only for "stasis-sniping"?)? Palladin VHA is a lot of fun, but now you need not to shoot magic bubble (lolcolyte) without aiming and not to spray ULMG with magical ammo at anything blue, you need to aim a bit, need to time your combos, need to be much more aware.

 

Eviscerator is an uncommon shooty that weights less than wraith, it still can kill things (assuming it's not your main source of damage) and almost EVERYONE has it at X. Why you need wraith, that is heavier (esp at lower levels) when evi allows to have 200+ CD if your gun isn't your main source of damage?

 

Everyone can play whatever he wants, I have no right to say how something should be played. But arguments "play claymore not kit" in the light of "lol-talon/arc/culyte/wraith/hurrdurr" usage look... biased.

 

 

Even with long post, I do not understand the argument. So If i take a nice damage dealing weapon like wraith/CSMG/Paldin/Talon, on a caster class that does not gimp my cooldown, does it mean I am not playing it as caster class? I play my Huntress with Paladin yet get many if not most biotic kills(did not bother to count every match, but i get enough of biotic kills). Anyone would offcourse take better of the weapons available. Argument from other side is about gimping the cooldown to say 50%. Why would one want to do it if they intend to play caster class? How does it supports argument that Claymoar/PPR/typhoon is a caster weapon?

 

Except for kits like fury offcourse.

Modifié par Dovakiin_N7, 15 mai 2014 - 10:30 .

[Dovakiin_N7]

I disagree with this, The claymore is not 'definitely' a better caster weapon than the CSMG. Like a few on here I would argue that it is not a caster weapon in the first place, sure you can put a Claymore on some caster kits and do well with it but it would not be optimal given the weight of the weapon. The CSMG is one of, if not the best caster weapon in my oppinion.

In the quote above you have suggested that the Claymore is better because it can kill enemies faster but as already mentioned most of the damage coming from caster kits comes from their powers. Personally I would prefer to use my powers more frequently...

 

This.