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is arc pistol a mediocre weapon for power intensive classes?


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#126
Kirrahe Airlines CEO

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Yeah it took me a while to find a gun I really like on him. I tried the PPR (weapons build) for a long time, and while I love the PPR, I felt like I was missing out by not using a more powers/BE-focused build. But I use Talon on everything (its my first and only level X, after all), Hurricane would be an abomination, and my CSMG is probably my lowest level UR, and I feel like at level 5 its ammo and damage are still problematic. May be the UR I'm most looking forward to leveling up some more at this point. Until then, I doubt I'll be using anything besides Arc Pistol on that creepy insect bastard.

 

It gets significantly better as it goes up from V. At X with the extended mag, you get 72 shots. I end up slapping that CSMG on a majority of my casters cause it's a perfect weapon to fire between cooldowns. I think the only caster I really use the talon on is my Pheonix Adept cause roleplay reasons lol. The one weird caster I use the CSMG on is the Shaman. Pretty effective on a BE build. On the collector though, I feel that out of the casters he has more options in terms of weaponry that won't interfere with his cooldowns too much. I typically put the ap mod and heavy barrel on if I have the arc pistol on him. Even if the weight isn't glitched, he still has a decent recharge speed, especially if you're spamming dark channel.



#127
capn233

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He clearly doesn't. There is only one playstyle.. gun focused.

 

Hahaha. Hilariously ironic.

 

You apparently have not been able to read anything I posted with a shred of understanding.

 

The issue is the "playing the gun" patrol going around claiming that weapon setups with high encumbrance, or ones that have a charge, or various other minor things are not a playstyle that anyone should play because "that's not how class A is meant to play."

 

I have never once in this thread said "oh you definitely need to take this loadout to experience the game properly."  I have been arguing against your nonsensical arguments about the game design and which weapons and powers people should be using to experience the way "Bioware intended" which is really just code for "the way megabeast plays the game."



#128
TheNightSlasher

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The claymore is not 'definitely' a better caster weapon than the CSMG. Like a few on here I would argue that it is not a caster weapon in the first place, sure you can put a Claymore on some caster kits and do well with it but it would not be optimal given the weight of the weapon. The CSMG is one of, if not the best caster weapon in my oppinion.

In the quote above you have suggested that the Claymore is better because it can kill enemies faster but as already mentioned most of the damage coming from caster kits comes from their powers. Personally I would prefer to use my powers more frequently...

This post pretty much sums up what I wanted to say.

 

Wraith, talon, arc, acolyte may be powerful, even OP but atleast I use my powers every 3 seconds. I use acolyte justicar (ya, I am one of them) and I get 50 biotic kills every match and not even 25 weapon kill medal and I love that playstyle. If I want to use claymore or any heavy weapon for that matter with warp ammo in synergy with reave, I might as well use a GI/HSol/Destroyer or any kit that boosts raw weapon damage.

 

I don't care if you find claymore better and I am not gonna tell you how to play. Because everyone is entitled to play the way they want. All I want to say is that 'claymore being the best caster weapon' is something I can never agree with. And all my points are regarding that discussion.



#129
capn233

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Biower didn't have a character designed primarily as a power user? Then WTF is the Fury? Or the Slayer? Or the Novaguard? Or the MQE? Or the (poorly executed) FQE? I can remember when the Talon Merc was introduced and one of the devs said, "with his bow you won't need your weapon hardly at all." Please son.. of course there are kits that are designed with powers first and others designed with weapon use first (Marksman classes). You would have to be trying not to see that, to not see it.

I would be glad to see a Fury played with 0 weapon use.  Some examples would be enlightening.

 

The first issue is that you first cite the original metagame as vision for Bioware's intentions.  There are no "gun only" or "power only" characters in the original metagame.  And in the current game there are really only a few "gun only" builds because they have don't have active powers.  Human Soldier and Turian Soldier both have active powers that support weapon use.  They directly buff the gun... but surprise, they are affected by cooldown.  I can hit Marksman or ARush more often with lighter weapons.

 

You keep speaking in absurdities.  The original intention of the game was that any class could balance weapon vs power use.  Heavier guns were supposed to be more powerful and PRS would take care of this balance.  The shipped balance wasn't correct and we moved even further from that with balance changes and DLC guns.   This isn't a difficult concept.

Of course Warp has debuff evolutions.. IMO this was designed to suppliment the lighter/weaker weapons that allow for a fast cooldown like pistols and smgs. This is further evidenced by the armor weakening evo.. which was made before the SMG HVB existed.

This is all very interesting, but armor weakening also helps shotguns and even the Claymore.  Given that armor weakening does not stack directly with piercing and the fact that the rest of the weapon classes had piercing mods, Bioware certainly realized warp was going to be combined with various weapon classes and that they might have piercing.

 

And indeed more powerful weapons don't need the debuff on as many targets.  So you don't need to use Warp as often.  It's almost as if there was some system intended to balance how powerful your weapon is with how often you can use Warp!

 

I'm not trying to say they made kits to be SOLELY one or the other.. I'm trying to say their design is slanted to lean one way or the other. Why is the tech combo window for Incinerate and Overload 3 seconds if the Human Engi was not meant to have a fast cooldown? Maybe it was done so you couldn't slap a Claymore on them and still have access to 6+6 combos.. maybe, just maybe, heavy weapon use was discouraged by design.. and if you can't make tech combos with the Human Engi, then why play it? You're just playing a gimped Ghost or SI at that point.. bc all you're going to be doing is overload/energy drain and then shooting.. just like the infiltrators.

More assumptions about intentions.  I would submit that they didn't expect the game to be all about combo spamming from single characters.  This is why combos weren't remotely balanced between biotics and techs to begin with and tech combos were revised to allow easy detonations for the CE's and FE's.

 

And it isn't like Bioware got everything right from release, nor do I believe they would claim that.  If they wanted to punish people for using heavier weapons on an HE, why did they increase TB priming window to 5s?  Was it because they thought people should only use light guns on them?

Speaking of which.. why does Warp ammo give the biggest bonus? So Adepts can keep up with their guns obvs.. and the game won't be slanted in favor of infiltrators as much. I'm not saying you can/should go all powers all the time.. I'm pretty confident you're supposed to shoot on cooldown (unless Novaguard/Slayer and a few others).
So WA gives a higher primed bonus so weak guns can keep up with Infiltrator weapon damage?  I would agree with that starting point, but disagree with the conclusion.  It isn't so Adepts can use wimpy guns and make up ground towards infiltrators.  It is so I can run a Claymore on an Adept and do similar damage to cloaked Claymore potentially.

 

Otherwise the "math" only works out when you compare a grossly overpowered light weapon like the Arc Pistol with a not so overpowered gun like the Valiant.

You know what.. F it. You're not gonna change your mind, you'll sit here and argue till you're blue in the face. Kiss my ass. Have a nice day.
It wasn't very taxing to me.  I am just applying a little logic to a set of arbitrary rules summed up in a soundbite: "playing the weapon."  The irony here is how you are being obstinate and getting upset because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation of how various classes have to be played.
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#130
capn233

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In the quote above you have suggested that the Claymore is better because it can kill enemies faster but as already mentioned most of the damage coming from caster kits comes from their powers. Personally I would prefer to use my powers more frequently...

 

No.  If you use a CSMG on most casters you will indeed kill more with powers relative to if you used the Claymore, but you will not necessarily kill any better overall unless there is glitching involved.

 

I don't know why everyone is so high on CSMG.  It is a good weapon, very good in the role of a secondary anti-armor gun.  But it is not the end all and be all of weapons.

 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that Claymore is more extreme on a caster than a CSMG, but play various early casters CSMG only then Claymore only and see which is really better.  I play SE and QFE with CSMG fairly frequently and also use the Claymore on them.  CSMG isn't really better.  You get to spam Incinerate a lot more, but all you are doing is trying to make up the damage difference.

 

The heart of the issue is that I am not trying to say that if someone takes a certain weapon on a certain class they aren't playing the game "the right way."  So I don't mind if someone prefers the CSMG.  I disagree that it is always better, especially as a primary.  But I don't claim that classes are only meant to be played with my pet weapons.



#131
megabeast37215

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@Mega: man, you dissapoint me severly in those threads. You are a cool guy, I share a lot of your opinions. But every time we have a "claymore discussion" you end up with argument "because you can only play gun and think that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid" or smth like that.
Capn provided good arguments regarding gunplay in ME series, those were ignored.

To all "kit players", guys, most adepts/engiees I've seen are played with either Hurricane/lolcolyte or Talon. And let me outline those weapons a bit:

Hurricane: has more punch and deeps than assault rifle, recoil can easily be compensated (also - no jaw scale). With warp ammo it deals 1200-2400 burst deeps without weapon passives (depends on protection). In three seconds it does around 6000 damage vs armor and around 8000 damage vs barriers not counting penetration and accidental headshots. And don't forget that using four "bigbosses": 1 suffers severly from tripplehits, another suffers from is wublehits in his headshot area (which also provides 2x multiplier and is quite large), third has a barriers presenting half of her HP (thus suffers from warp ammo even more than pure armor HP would have).
It's only drawback (accuracy) is not significant for a boss killer weapon.
Chit, TSol with it is better than with any assault rifle.
It's stupidly overpowered weapon.

Lolcolyte: that abomination should have never existed. Biower give it to us because a lot of "kit players" were unable to deal with phantoms ("oh, why should I shoot or [gasp] headshot somebody? I play space magician! gimme the power that would kill bi*tch immediately! biover plaz lizards wizards underpowered!"). Even though it's easy to apply projectile power to her, even with predator/shurikaine.

Talon: Weapon, that can deal almost as much gore as claymore with one shot (assuming protection modifiers), that has 6 shots, better accuracy (which becomes ridiculously tight with hard cover) and weights nothing??? Why the hell not? Casters need some light weapons.
With the best casters being GI, TSol and Destroyer.

Wraith - simillar story, but actually a bit more balanced (less deeps - no defence modifiers and no pistol HVB).
On the deeps part -read hurrdurr deeps rant.

Arc Pistol: Dramatically overbuffed weapon. Great accuracy, great capacity, light weight, ignores shieldgate and OHKills a lot of mobs. Also, has a great one clip DPS and big clip. That allows to one-clip a lot of bosses.

Guys, please, don't say you play the kit if you use anything described above. You play the weapon, ridiculously overbuffed weapon, with frequent combos on the background.

Why you no use lets say Tempest and Carniflex on your casters? Than you will really play the kit, with some additional damage from the gun. Palladin is a great weapon, capable to 1-2HSK any mook, why most power-kit-players don't suggest it (or suggest only for "stasis-sniping"?)? Palladin VHA is a lot of fun, but now you need not to shoot magic bubble (lolcolyte) without aiming and not to spray ULMG with magical ammo at anything blue, you need to aim a bit, need to time your combos, need to be much more aware.

Eviscerator is an uncommon shooty that weights less than wraith, it still can kill things (assuming it's not your main source of damage) and almost EVERYONE has it at X. Why you need wraith, that is heavier (esp at lower levels) when evi allows to have 200+ CD if your gun isn't your main source of damage?

Everyone can play whatever he wants, I have no right to say how something should be played. But arguments "play claymore not kit" in the light of "lol-talon/arc/culyte/wraith/hurrdurr" usage look... biased.

The reason why a lot of what he wrote was ignored and why a lot of this post will be ignored is bc I'm using my phone to write on BSN. When the auto-correct changes even the slightest thing it jumps the cursor up into the middle of the post, deletes words or entire sentences. I never get on my PC to BSN.. it is what it is. It already did it twice while writing this short reply. It only happens on big, long posts.. it isn't a problem with short/medium ones.

#132
me0120

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^

I usually give up writing anything more than a couple lines on my phone. It didn't used to do that, so what the hell is up with the erratic text input?



#133
megabeast37215

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^
I usually give up writing anything more than a couple lines on my phone. It didn't used to do that, so what the hell is up with the erratic text input?


The worst part is that it ruins the quotes, then I have to rewrite what the other person said perfectly or it looks like I'm modifying their quote. Sometimes it will screw up the beginning of the quote where all the code is, and there's just no fixing that chit, have to start all over again. This thread is almost worth starting up my PC.. almost.

#134
me0120

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I know exactly what you mean. Hence the ^ and not quoting you. It does it mid-statement too, for absolutely no reason. It's physically impossible to scroll up high enough to change the cursor to what it deletes sometimes.



#135
q5tyhj

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It gets significantly better as it goes up from V. At X with the extended mag, you get 72 shots. I end up slapping that CSMG on a majority of my casters cause it's a perfect weapon to fire between cooldowns. I think the only caster I really use the talon on is my Pheonix Adept cause roleplay reasons lol. The one weird caster I use the CSMG on is the Shaman. Pretty effective on a BE build. On the collector though, I feel that out of the casters he has more options in terms of weaponry that won't interfere with his cooldowns too much. I typically put the ap mod and heavy barrel on if I have the arc pistol on him. Even if the weight isn't glitched, he still has a decent recharge speed, especially if you're spamming dark channel.

Yeah this is why I'm looking forward to leveling it up some more- probably the gun I see most frequently on casters (at least for players who appear to know what they're doing, at any rate). Plus, and call me a nerd, but I just feel like a turd not using a Collector/Prothean weapon on the insect. But Arc Pistol probably makes me feel least like a turd, because, well, because Arc Peestol. And I agree- I use the heavy barrel regardless of whether the weight glitch may get reset or not, since I think it leaves you at +150% cooldown without the weight glitch- still pretty good. 



#136
Kirrahe Airlines CEO

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Yeah this is why I'm looking forward to leveling it up some more- probably the gun I see most frequently on casters (at least for players who appear to know what they're doing, at any rate). Plus, and call me a nerd, but I just feel like a turd not using a Collector/Prothean weapon on the insect. But Arc Pistol probably makes me feel least like a turd, because, well, because Arc Peestol. And I agree- I use the heavy barrel regardless of whether the weight glitch may get reset or not, since I think it leaves you at +150% cooldown without the weight glitch- still pretty good. 

 

At least when you get yours leveled up you can take advantage of the extra damage with those specific weapons. I'm perfectly fine with using a non collector/prothean weapon on him. I'm trying to get the hang of using the venom on him. It's taking time but I will eventually learn.



#137
q5tyhj

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At least when you get yours leveled up you can take advantage of the extra damage with those specific weapons. I'm perfectly fine with using a non collector/prothean weapon on him. I'm trying to get the hang of using the venom on him. It's taking time but I will eventually learn.

 

I'm not a TOTAL dork for Lore (I don't have to use Lore-friendly weapons on every kit or anything), but for some reason, using non-Prothean/Collector weapons on him just bothers me, moreso than anyone else. Not sure why. Venom on the ACA, now that's something you don't see everyday- although I've used Venom enough now to know better than to scoff at the idea; I'm sure it works pretty well (area priming+Venom AoE+Warp Ammo is always a good thing, after all). 

 

But the last thing I need at this point is yet ANOTHER kit eating up my shotgun amps- the ACA is one of my few kits that DOESN'T use shotguns atm and I'd like to keep it that way (so don't put any ideas into my head, thank you very much ;) ).



#138
Marksmad is waving goodbye

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I'm not a TOTAL dork for Lore (I don't have to use Lore-friendly weapons on every kit or anything), but for some reason, using non-Prothean/Collector weapons on him just bothers me, moreso than anyone else. Not sure why. 

 

Well, there's lore, and then there's lore-specific damage bonuses, which are more convincing.



#139
eighteighty

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Talon > Arc Pistol :)


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#140
Credit2team

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you should always charge. And it's not mediocre, it's a monster, beast, deadly, fabulous, fantastic, wonderful etc etc

 

Definitely the best caster weapon in the game, along with venom IMO.

you for got hurricane, talon, wraith and csmg



#141
Credit2team

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Talon > Arc Pistol :)

both good for different reasons, talon lacks long range accuracy but is bypasses shield gate, arc pistol has much better range



#142
Deerber

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both good for different reasons, talon lacks long range accuracy but is bypasses shield gate, arc pistol has much better range

 

... And it bypasses shield gate too :P



#143
Credit2team

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also I'd just like to say it would be nice to see one weapon damage post without the cult of claymore butting in and insisting everyone play like they do.



#144
Credit2team

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... And it bypasses shield gate too :P

you mean with phasic rounds?



#145
Dr. Tim Whatley

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also I'd just like to say it would be nice to see one weapon damage post without the cult of claymore butting in and insisting everyone play like they do.

 

If anything, it's the other way around...


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#146
TheNightSlasher

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you mean with phasic rounds?


Nope. When charged, arc pistol bypasses shield gate irresp. of ammo.
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#147
Credit2team

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If anything, it's the other way around...

who is telling people not to use the claymore? I figured that people got burned at the stake for even hinting at that



#148
Dr. Tim Whatley

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who is telling people not to use the claymore? I figured that people got burned at the stake for even hinting at that

 

Take time to read the thread before making wild accusations.


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#149
Credit2team

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Take time to read the thread before making wild accusations.

show me where someone says "DON'T USE THE CLAYMORE!"



#150
megabeast37215

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Take time to read the thread before making wild accusations.


I never said not to.. I just have an opinion about it.