132 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

And the fallacy I'm calling you out on is the fallacy fallacy. 

 

Not every Godwin is a fallacy. You must prove how it is one when calling it out. The comparison is to state how even Hitler had a Jew immune to his standard opinions. An extreme example? Perhaps. But it's in sync with Ashley and her fondness for some of the alien squadmates.

 

 

Because Tali isn't the only alien she was friendly with?  And could work with professionally?

 

That there were humans she showed as much or more contempt towards than aliens?

 

yeah, sure "Prove your not a racist" has got to me one of the most loaded demands in existence nowadays.

[TheTurtle]

No, she wasn't. I'm seeing it as stemming from her latent, irrational distrust (and dislike) towards aliens. It fits the outcome. It does not fit the actual sentiment.

So it really comes down to how you interpret what she said. That's all these arguments ever really amount to and since no one here is going to change their opinions what's the point.

[DeinonSlayer]

Why wouldn't the Alliance be able to consider the Hierarchy, Republics, Union, Protectorate, Primacy, or Courts as long-term allies?
All of them have been together for 1000+ years.

The age of a government says nothing about its dependability as an ally. There are people who trust the Krogan more than the Salarians when the former is largely composed of clashing tribes who spend most of their time sitting around hating everyone else ("Some day we'll get off this rock, and teach those Turians and Salarians who's boss!" - IIRC that Krogan wasn't even sure what they looked like). There are people who trust the Geth more than the Quarians when the latter has played an active role in galactic affairs (aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast) and the former has only just stopped killing any organic they encounter on sight, what... thirty seconds ago?

[Jorji Costava]

No, she wasn't. I'm seeing it as stemming from her latent, irrational distrust (and dislike) towards aliens. It fits the outcome. It does not fit the actual sentiment.

 

On the basis of what evidence?

[Iakus]

No, she wasn't. I'm seeing it as stemming from her latent, irrational distrust (and dislike) towards aliens. It fits the outcome. It does not fit the actual sentiment.

 

I already told you the sentiment "I'm not opposed to having allies, I just wouldn't count on them staying allies"  She believed that the alien governments would look to their own people in a crisis first.  It's a natural reaction.  Altruism is not a survival trait for a species.

 

And she was right

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You mean him zing.... On his mom side ironic much....

 

He also had his personal physician and his family who were Jews.

[AlexMBrennan]

Even Hitler had a Jew he protected and cared about.

Yeah, he was really smart to get rid of that "jewish science" (including, say, Einstein) that led to America winning the nuclear arms race. 

[Mordokai]

Aw man I love Kimberly Brooks even named a character in the story I'm writing after her. I lost my s*** when I first heard Daisy Fitzroy in "Infinite"

 

That was her? I actually liked Daisy's performance, but for some reason, I just can't stand Ash.

 

Probably part of her character, which I'm none too fond of in the first place.

[Iakus]

The age of a government says nothing about its dependability as an ally. There are people who trust the Krogan more than the Salarians when the former is largely composed of clashing tribes who spend most of their time sitting around hating everyone else ("Some day we'll get off this rock, and teach those Turians and Salarians who's boss!" - IIRC that Krogan wasn't even sure what they looked like). There are people who trust the Geth more than the Quarians when the latter has played an active role in galactic affairs (aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast) and the former has only just stopped killing any organic they encounter on sight, what... thirty seconds ago?

 

 

Don't forget while the other races have been around for a millenium or two in a galactic government, Humanity has been a player for less than two generations.  They're still largely an unknown quanitiy

[MassivelyEffective0730]

On the basis of what evidence?

 

On the basis about her remarks on aliens. On the basis on her general demeanor and attitude about them that she's displayed. Granted, I think this is going to come down to how we interpret it. 

[RZIBARA]

Lovely when people take how they interpret a certain thing a character and try to state it as a fact. 

[Iakus]

On the basis about her remarks on aliens. On the basis on her general demeanor and attitude about them that she's displayed. Granted, I think this is going to come down to how we interpret it. 

 

You're gonna have to be a lot more specific

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I already told you the sentiment "I'm not opposed to having allies, I just wouldn't count on them staying allies"  She believed that the alien governments would look to their own people in a crisis first.  It's a natural reaction.  Altruism is not a survival trait for a species.

 

And she was right

 

I'm not arguing that she was right from that politically standpoint. What I'm saying is that the basis for that belief doesn't look to be political in nature. She ascribes it to aliens during the game. To me, the best word for her sentiment behind that statement is... racism.

[TheTurtle]

That was her? I actually liked Daisy's performance, but for some reason, I just can't stand Ash.

Probably part of her character, which I'm none too fond of in the first place.

Have you ever heard the audio she did reading Ashley's letter post Horizon? It's some of the best work she's done as Ashley and it's bit even in game.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The age of a government says nothing about its dependability as an ally. There are people who trust the Krogan more than the Salarians when the former is largely composed of clashing tribes who spend most of their time sitting around hating everyone else ("Some day we'll get off this rock, and teach those Turians and Salarians who's boss!" - IIRC that Krogan wasn't even sure what they looked like). There are people who trust the Geth more than the Quarians when the latter has played an active role in galactic affairs (aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast) and the former has only just stopped killing any organic they encounter on sight, what... thirty seconds ago?

My point being, as long as humanity doesn't go around slaving or violating treaties, they will get far more and greater benefits from being part of the Citadel Alliance, and there is no reason that humanity will be attacked by the other races on it. They all have gotten along for a millenia, and will be trustworthy allies. 

[Iakus]

I'm not arguing that she was right from that politically standpoint. What I'm saying is that the basis for that belief doesn't look to be political in nature. She ascribes it to aliens during the game. To me, the best word for her sentiment behind that statement is... racism.

 

She ascribes it to everyone.  She even called it "human nature" She doesn't think aliens are less for having the sentiment.  She doesn't blame them for it.  As far as she's concerned it's the nature of the galaxy:  It's a survival instinct as deep as fight or flight.

[Mordokai]

Have you ever heard the audio she did reading Ashley's letter post Horizon? It's some of the best work she's done as Ashley and it's bit even in game.

 

Afraid I haven't had that pleasure and frankly, none too thrilled to go looking for it. There are just so many things about Ash I don't like that I don't even bother trying to change that.

 

Narrow minded perhaps, but I can live with that.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

She ascribes it to everyone.  She even called it "human nature" She doesn't think aliens are less for having the sentiment.  She doesn't blame them for it.  As far as she's concerned it's the nature of the galaxy:  It's a survival instinct as deep as fight or flight.

 

That's anthropocentric. That's not helping your case too much.

 

What I'm saying that the basis for that ideal that she believe in is inherent dislike for aliens that she holds. It's not about the political veracity of her statement. It's about her personal perspective.

[Iakus]

That's anthropocentric. That's not helping your case too much.

 

What I'm saying that the basis for that ideal that she believe in is inherent dislike for aliens that she holds. It's not about the political veracity of her statement. It's about her personal perspective.

 

And it shows she ascribes the same mentality to humans, and not an inherent failing of aliens

 

And where do you get that she has an inherent dislike for aliens?  What is her perspective?  She shows more disdain for Udina than most aliens she winds up in contact with.

[Jorji Costava]

That's anthropocentric. That's not helping your case too much.

 

What I'm saying that the basis for that ideal that she believe in is inherent dislike for aliens that she holds. It's not about the political veracity of her statement. It's about her personal perspective.

 

The occasional bit of misguided anthropocentrism seems a long way off from the kind of vitriolic space racism you're ascribing to Ashley. And again, what is the specific evidence that Ashley's political beliefs are guided by prejudice? What are the specific quotes, and why are these quotes best interpreted in terms of racism rather than in terms of some alternative explanation? And how do you account for the evidence against the claim that she's just a racist (i.e. her friendship with Tali, her hostility towards Saracino, etc.)?

[TheTurtle]

Afraid I haven't had that pleasure and frankly, none too thrilled to go looking for it. There are just so many things about Ash I don't like that I don't even bother trying to change that.

Narrow minded perhaps, but I can live with that.

Understandable. We all have characters like that so there's no point trying to change it.

[SporkFu]

That was her? I actually liked Daisy's performance, but for some reason, I just can't stand Ash.

 

Probably part of her character, which I'm none too fond of in the first place.

She also does one of the female soldier voices in x-com:enemy unknown. I always name that one Ashley Williams and nickname her "two-twelve" ...if she lives long enough to get a nickname, heh. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And it shows she ascribes the same mentality to humans, and not an inherent failing of aliens

 

And where do you get that she has an inherent dislike for aliens?  What is her perspective?  She shows more disdain for Udina than most aliens she winds up in contact with.

 

And it shows she's ascribing human values and beliefs to aliens and their values and beliefs.

 

It's an observed trait, mainly one that I see from various comments ("I can't tell the aliens from the animals"), her apprehension towards them, her dismissing remarks about Liara, and general statements about not trusting them.

 

Her friendship with other aliens on the crew seems to come from long-term exposure, and there really isn't much to say about her relationships prior to ME3. 

[TheTurtle]

She also does one of the female soldier voices in x-com:enemy unknown. I always name that one Ashley Williams and nickname her "two-twelve" ...if she lives long enough to get a nickname, heh.

I believe she also plays Lanaya in DA:O

[Iakus]

She also does one of the female soldier voices in x-com:enemy unknown. I always name that one Ashley Williams and nickname her "two-twelve" ...if she lives long enough to get a nickname, heh. 

 

Nothing better than having Ashley Williams and Varric Tethras on your team