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Reaper Tech Good or Bad


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#26
DeathScepter

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Gonna go ahead and debunk this. Yes, he was indoctrinated. What he thought was helping Shepard, was attempts to help the Reapers. Horizon being used as bait, why pick a world with the VS on it? Picking any colony and making the claim the VS was there would have gotten the same result. Collector Ship? TIM lied blatantly about the Turian distress signal and sent Shepard into a trap that almost got them caught and the Normandy destroyed again.

 

The Reaper IFF was a mixed bag cause it wasnt going to help anyone in any form unless Shepard died.

 

TIM's argument for keeping the base instead of wiping it out was the argument of a man who was indoctrinated and looking to make it spread through the rest of his organization.

 

Now unless you wanna claim that Evolution is full of crap and the writers were lying in official canon material, drop the idea that TIM wasnt indoctrinated.

 

 

Well Vs and Horizon was under the Rule of Drama. Drama is important to a story no matter how minor it is.

 

 

As for keeping the Collector base, To understand your enemy, studying their technology will be important.    


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#27
I Tsunayoshi I

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Well Vs and Horizon was under the Rule of Drama. Drama is important to a story no matter how minor it is.

 

 

As for keeping the Collector base, To understand your enemy, studying their technology will be important.    

 

Ignoring Rule of Drama, as it could be applied with lesser results on another world that had been set up by TIM, that still means that Shepard was being sent to the slaughter. Especially with the Collectors having a heavy complement of forces (expected with the ship on station), a fair amount of deployed heavies, and Harbinger's personal attention being applied to the battles until the Ship was put at risk with the Guardian defense system going online.

 

Horizon may have been baited for the Collectors, but it was baited for Shep as well. Had it ended badly, TIM would have screwed the galaxy.

 

Shep almost was left completely SOL on the Collector Ship. Again ignoring Rule of Drama for the last minute getaway. Shep just about was trapped on that ship where there was no hope of winning against the entire crew with just him and two squadmates. With Normandy disabled, the Collectors could have destroyed the ship and it would have been game over for everyone.

 

While there is some merit in keeping the Collector Base, that doesnt mean its a wise idea to give it to the guy that lied and attempted to screw you over repeatedly. It becomes a worse idea when you remember that its highly unlikely that Cerberus has the means to properly shield and handle Reaper tech. ME2 displays the general lack of safety protocols for projects that could and should have been safer than they were. ME3 doesnt have to do anything more than point at the gorram Human Reaper remains hanging outside TIM's office about the utter lack of ****s shown about proper containment and shielding to prevent indoctrination.

 

Keep in mind that Task Force Aurora had a piece of Sovereign and the large device that was needed to just keep it properly shielded, so there is such a thing as going beyond safe limits in what you have.



#28
teh DRUMPf!!

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Gonna go ahead and debunk this. Yes, he was indoctrinated. What he thought was helping Shepard, was attempts to help the Reapers. Horizon being used as bait, why pick a world with the VS on it? Picking any colony and making the claim the VS was there would have gotten the same result. Collector Ship? TIM lied blatantly about the Turian distress signal and sent Shepard into a trap that almost got them caught and the Normandy destroyed again.
 
The Reaper IFF was a mixed bag cause it wasnt going to help anyone in any form unless Shepard died.

 
TIM: "It's never that simple. You of all people should understand that."
Mordin: "Necessary risk."

 
TIM brought back Shepard -- from the Reapers' ready grasp, no less -- to fight the Reapers. No indoctrinated thrall would do that. If the player (and by extension, Shepard), is too naiive to realize that the Reaper threat requires Shepard risking his/her life for from time to time, then it's easy to see why some would believe TIM is actually "helping" the Reapers, but it would still be wrong.
 

TIM's argument for keeping the base instead of wiping it out was the argument of a man who was indoctrinated and looking to make it spread through the rest of his organization.

 
Cerberus has had, used, and studied Reaper-tech long before the events of Mass Effect 2. So if TIM was just trying to get them all indoctrinated, he did not need the Collector Base. He not only had their tech, but studied it, and new what precautions to take to prevent any of them from getting indoctrinated.
 
And why? Because Cerberus was set up as an organization to fight the Reapers. He saw visions of them, and warns of an unknown alien threat in the Cerberus manifesto that humanity needs to be armed and ready to fight against. You might notice that Cerberus operatives all agree the Reaper threat is real, even when very few people in the galaxy believe it at all.

Secondly, no, it's not the "argument of a man who was indoctrinated." It's a sound argument from anyone willing to fight the Reapers, knowing that risks must be taken since the odds are not on our side to begin with. Javik himself argues something to that effect in ME3. Also, it is the argument people outside of the game can make, and have made (unless you want to go full IT and accuse the players of being indoctrinated, but you'll rightly be laughed out of this forum).


 

Now unless you wanna claim that Evolution is full of crap and the writers were lying in official canon material, drop the idea that TIM wasnt indoctrinated.

 
Getting zapped by a Reaper artifact for a second doesn't make one indoctrinated. Shepard gets zapped by Object Rho and spends two days in its vicinity, but is not indoctrinated. So no, TIM's brief exposure to the Arca Monolith is not enough.

Also, if ME:E was meant to show us TIM is indoctrinated, why don't the ME novels similarly detail Reaper voices inside his head as they do for Paul Grayson?

And more issues yet with this interpretation I haven't gone into here (but have elsewhere):

 

--> Indoctrination requires days-to-weeks of continous/uninterrupted exposure to Reaper tech to set in. Again, TIM does not stay around the Arca Monolith device very long at all. Shepard spent two days knocked out at The Project, but is fine. A lot of people assert "he wasn't indoctrinated at ME:E, but over the years it was setting in." It doesn't work like that. Indoctrination does not set in over years. It also requires you to be in the presense of some kind of indoctrinating device at all times.

The Codex merely says that the thrall can be sustained for months-to-years, but that assumes they are, in fact, indoctrinated in the first place. No such assumption is safe to make with TIM.

--> TIM's actions undermine the Reapers far more than they could acceptably have allowed of their thrall: stealing Shepard's body from them, wiping out the Collectors and human Reaper, almost figuring out how to take control of them.

He also wouldn't have created that large, multi-billion credit organization committed to stopping the Reapers. Yes, Cerberus was created in large part to fight the Reapers (TIM: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"). The device he touched gave him visions of the Reapers, he just couldn't put his finger on what they were (much like Shepard intially couldn't make sense of the vision from the Prothean Beacon). And the Cerberus manifesto talks about protecting humanity from some dark, alien threat. That's why everyone who works for Cerberus acknowledges the Reaper threat as legitimate, even before the war takes place and most thought them to be a myth.

Note that TIM never says he wants the Reapers destroyed in ME2, just "stopped" ... which doesn't rule out Control.
 
(...)

--> When TIM implants himself (as seen in a video log at the end of Sanctuary) with Reaper tech, Sanctuary had already happened. The doctor warns against implanting himself, as TIM would then risk losing his mind to the Reapers. That would not make sense if TIM was already indoctrinated (if any tell-tale symptoms existed, a doctor would notice).

*edit 2*

--> Vendetta, the Prothean VI, was programmed to withhold the Crucible information from indoctrinated agents (which he can detect, apparently). Where do we find Vendetta again after he's stolen from us? (Answer: TIM's office).

--> When shot dead in the final, face-to-face confrontation with TIM, you can see his implants power-down (the lights go off) after falling to the floor. His eyes do not similarly power out (credit goes out to Steelcan on this discovery, not I).


Again, this is the same story that ends with Shepard saying (unavoidable): "So (TIM) was right after all." That means they were all wrong about him before, and that would seem to include Shepard's accusation of him being indoctrinated and really just working for the Reapers.



#29
I Tsunayoshi I

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Not even going to bother since you just said canon material worked on by Bioware writers is wrong.

 

You've also had indoctrination explained you so many times that I'm surprised you dont get reported for trolling every time you make this proven false claim.



#30
teh DRUMPf!!

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Not even going to bother since you just said canon material worked on by Bioware writers is wrong.

 

No, I've just said that your understanding of it is wrong. icon_wink.gif



#31
I Tsunayoshi I

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No, I've just said that your understanding of it is wrong. icon_wink.gif

 

No. You are claiming I dont know what I am talking about outright, which is the same as calling me a barefaced liar.

 

TIM was indoctrinated, or do you really think his eyes ended up the way they did cause he took his old ones out and replaced them with the ones we all know?



#32
The Don's Hound

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After making some threads about certain situations (genophage, reaper code, Grunt, etc.) and wanted to know if using Reaper Tech is beneficial to us all. Does the end justify the means? Can Reapers truly be controlled like Jack Harper said? Ideally the control ending seems logical but the destroy ending may jeopardize the greatest thing the ME universe needs as well as end the worst possible thing that can happen when using Reaper tech. Is there truly a way to not get indoctrinated? I know the Catalyst said Harper was indoctrinated but I truly believed he wasn't an if he was he could of fought an beaten them. I mean if he was truly indoctrinated then why was he able to find a means to control the reapers? Wouldn't the reapers not want this? I know I really need to replay the trilogy to refresh my ME knowledge but something about Jack doesn't seem right indoctrinated or not. What do you guys think? Is Reaper Tech justifiable or inhumane?

What.

 

Is it.

 

Inhumane.

 

To use the technology of ******* spaceships?

 

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#33
AlanC9

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No. You are claiming I dont know what I am talking about outright, which is the same as calling me a barefaced liar.
 


Technically, I believe it's the same thing as calling you an idiot. A barefaced liar knows what the truth is, but an idiot doesn't.

I have no idea if you're either; Just trying to clear up the terms here.

#34
I Tsunayoshi I

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Technically, I believe it's the same thing as calling you an idiot. A barefaced liar knows what the truth is, but an idiot doesn't.

I have no idea if you're either; Just trying to clear up the terms here.

 

Considering the claim is that Evolution (aka, First Party with Bioware staff involved) is wrong about TIM being indoctrinated and Harper got himself new eyeballs because he could, I'm taking the assertion that he's effectively calling me a liar.

 

Seeing as indirect contact with the Monolith still managed to link Harper to the other Turians affected and Ben, claiming that the Monolith didnt indoctrinate or have any other effect is going directly against established canon.



#35
DeathScepter

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as much as I like bioware and I do have faith of them, I do admit that they dropped the ball with Indoctrination, Cerberus and the Reapers within ME3. I do have good idea if they did a remake but I do think some of my ideas are half baked at best.



#36
teh DRUMPf!!

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Considering the claim is that Evolution (aka, First Party with Bioware staff involved) is wrong about TIM being indoctrinated and Harper got himself new eyeballs because he could, I'm taking the assertion that he's effectively calling me a liar.

 

You cannot tell apart an accusation of misunderstand apart from an accusation of lying, and then claim to know this story better than I.

Have a seat.

 

I also addressed the glowing blue eyes twice in that post you couldn't be bothered to refute (but are content to endlessly complain about).

 

Seeing as indirect contact with the Monolith still managed to link Harper to the other Turians affected and Ben, claiming that the Monolith didnt indoctrinate or have any other effect is going directly against established canon.

 

Established canon also says that indoctrination is not instant, never has been, and requires days-to-weeks to set in. So you'll excuse me if I do not pass brief moments of hallucinatory visions and other funky effects (akin to what Shepard had when in contact with Object Rho, yet still didn't indoctrinate him) as "established canon" of anything.



#37
I Tsunayoshi I

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So are you claiming that Bioware is lying and ignoring their own lore with the Arca Monolith instantly indoctrinating anyone that comes in direct contact with it, and by extension starts indoctrination in those that have indirect contact with it?

 

If so, just leave the thread. Since you wont have a leg to stand on with your "Bioware is lying" theory or your irrelevant hypothetical about Object Rho (Besides knocking out Shepard, we have NO clue whatsoever what other effects came from exposure to the device besides indoctrination over the long-term).



#38
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Let us not forget that The Illusive Man wanted to take down The Shadow Broker who was on the side of the Reapers. He purposely gave Shepard the location of the ship to give to Liara so they could take him down. Now how important is Liara? She is a Prothean expert no matter how poorly written she was at times. Had Shepard been killed on one of those missions, all would not have been lost. Jack probably would have been a bad apple among the crew and would have to be eliminated. Zaeed would do his job, as would Garrus, Mordin, Jacob, Grunt, Miranda, Kasumi, Legion, Samara, and Thane. Tali would take some convincing. They could have finished the suicide mission with Miranda in charge of the Normandy. I think Tali and Jack would be fine if Garrus took command (at least he has experience). 

 

Then in ME3 Liara finds Javik and Javik would know what to do with the Crucible. The VS commands the Normandy. The galaxy would not be screwed. The Illusive Man was playing the long game.

 

And regarding the eyes.... If they came out with extremely accurate cochlear implants and were able to replace the entire hearing system with one that was superior to our natural one and were able to do it without fear of rejection, if I had the money I would have my middle and inner ears replaced. I really don't care if TIM had his eyes replaced. What bothers me is that they had to make him into an indoctrinated antagonist simply because we needed another variety of mooks to shoot at because shooting at reaper mooks the entire game would be boring.


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#39
I Tsunayoshi I

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Let us not forget that The Illusive Man wanted to take down The Shadow Broker who was on the side of the Reapers. He purposely gave Shepard the location of the ship to give to Liara so they could take him down. Now how important is Liara? She is a Prothean expert no matter how poorly written she was at times. Had Shepard been killed on one of those missions, all would not have been lost. Jack probably would have been a bad apple among the crew and would have to be eliminated. Zaeed would do his job, as would Garrus, Mordin, Jacob, Grunt, Miranda, Kasumi, Legion, Samara, and Thane. Tali would take some convincing. They could have finished the suicide mission with Miranda in charge of the Normandy. I think Tali and Jack would be fine if Garrus took command (at least he has experience). 

 

Then in ME3 Liara finds Javik and Javik would know what to do with the Crucible. The VS commands the Normandy. The galaxy would not be screwed. The Illusive Man was playing the long game.

 

And regarding the eyes.... If they came out with extremely accurate cochlear implants and were able to replace the entire hearing system with one that was superior to our natural one and were able to do it without fear of rejection, if I had the money I would have my middle and inner ears replaced. I really don't care if TIM had his eyes replaced. What bothers me is that they had to make him into an indoctrinated antagonist simply because we needed another variety of mooks to shoot at because shooting at reaper mooks the entire game would be boring.

 

And I can settle this in one go. Jack Harper's eyes were changed due to his contact with the Arca Monolith. Had he come into direct contact instead of having Ben as a buffer, he would have been changed just like all of the meta-Turians had been.

 

The fact that Reaper tech had any sort physical effect on his body means that he either always vulnerable to indoctrination, in the process of being indoctrinated over the extreme long-term, or indoctrinated and left in the position of being a sleeper agent to be used when the time came.



#40
SwobyJ

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Good.....bad....

It's subjective.




Dangerous. It's definitely dangerous.

 

And I think that's how DefaultScriptShep puts it too, right? I don't think he calls the Reapers and/or their tech evil or bad. He calls them a threat and dangerous. Which is factually true.