532 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Your wrong about the last part as well. For the record i believe the circle is necessary. but after the harrowing they should not be locked up they should use their powers for the benefit not only for themselves but also others. if people say mages remain a danger afterwards i will say they are full of **** as the tevinter imperium still stands the dalish still exist as well as the barbarian tribes.

 

See how much influence Anders wields by healing sicj kirkwallers , do you think the chantry likes that?  

 

Unless you state why I'm wrong then I'm going to assume I'm right

 

That's not better, not everyone with powers wants to use them (Soul Eater NOT class). In every instance if they are in the populace it would take someone of equal power to bring them down. And if you refer that back to super hero stories, inevitably causes collateral damage. It was such an event that lead to the implementation of the Super Hero Registration act. 

 

A Soul Eater type division of NOT and EAT may be a sort of solution. 

[Nohvarr]

Your problem is that the chantry and the templars give a damn about the mages. they dont and thats why i have no problem with anders bombing the chantry.

Wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have Elthina refusing to allow Meredith to enact an ROA, and you wouldn't have Good templars (like the one whose daughter was a mage and was then killed BY a rogue mage on a quest for revenge against Hawke). If that were true Hawke's father would never have been able to leave the circle, and the Rogue Templars never would've left the Chantry since Justina would never have bothered to find a better solution than making a mage tranquil.

 

If i was a mage and i was told that i would be for the rest of my life segregated form the rest of society to benefit the chantry and allowed no social growth so that i may not influence the world outside the circle all the while being a slave soldier for the chantry that benefits from my works. i would likely cross every single law in the Geneva convention to wipe out the chantry and the Templars.

 

And that makes you just as much of a monster as the Templars you hate.

 

Your problem is you've painted a large organization like the Chantry as evil. With that label you've stripped it of humanity, and decided that those who join it do so because they want to oppress, that everyone from the sister trying to feed the poor to the Templar trying to protect a mage from an angry Mob deserves to die only because of association. Enacting atrocities because you disagree with how some treat the mages is an action I call evil and it's one I oppose.

 

if people say mages remain a danger afterwards i will say they are full of **** as the tevinter imperium

 

So you are using a nation that enslaves people, that only allows people born with magic to gain status and sends out slavers to round up more free labor as proof mages can be trusted?

[DRTJR]

So you are using a nation that enslaves people, that only allows people born with magic to gain status and sends out slavers to round up more free labor as proof mages can be trusted?

Tevinter is Thedas' Rome, with all the good and ill that comes with that. They alone keep the Qunari at bay, Tevinter is a bad place but it is better than it was before the blights.

[DKJaigen]

 

Wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have Elthina refusing to allow Meredith to enact an ROA, and you wouldn't have Good templars (like the one whose daughter was a mage and was then killed BY a rogue mage on a quest for revenge against Hawke). If that were true Hawke's father would never have been able to leave the circle, and the Rogue Templars never would've left the Chantry since Justina would never have bothered to find a better solution than making a mage tranquil. 

 

Yes their always good people even in the soviet union, kmer rouge , FARC or the taliban who honestly believe the idealistic nonsense. doesnt make the organisations better however.

 

 

And that makes you just as much of a monster as the Templars you hate.

 

Your problem is you've painted a large organization like the Chantry as evil. With that label you've stripped it of humanity, and decided that those who join it do so because they want to oppress, that everyone from the sister trying to feed the poor to the Templar trying to protect a mage from an angry Mob deserves to die only because of association. Enacting atrocities because you disagree with how some treat the mages is an action I call evil and it's one I oppose.

 

" Ich habe nicht gewust"  was a phrase i didnt buy back then or now. if people cannot be critical of the organisation/ country they serf then they are part of the problem.

 

 

So you are using a nation that enslaves people, that only allows people born with magic to gain status and sends out slavers to round up more free labor as proof mages can be trusted?

 

I have to little information to judge them. what disgust me about chantry nations is that never managed to reach the same achievements of the tevinters.

[Gtdef]

" Ich habe nicht gewust"  was a phrase i didnt buy back then or now. if people cannot be critical of the organisation/ country they serf then they are part of the problem.

 

Lets kill them then. All of them. Sacrificial lambs for a war. Funny how you use a phrase that's associated with high ranked people who probably were the the core of the problem, and use it for the low ranks or those that don't even have the ability to see the big picture because they actually lack internet. The funny part is that the leader of the organization is sympathetic to the mages and she is the reason for the rebellion.

 

Also as a personal observation, just because someone is critical doesn't mean he is right. Everyone has a sense to understand if someone in power is inadequate but no one really understands why that is and thus we all play the blame game. Everyone knows that Meredith went nuts in act 3. No one knows why and most of all Anders. It's funny how even Cullen goes against Meredith who supposedly were the star addition to Meredith's line up.

 

 And you still find people guilty just by association. Chantry and the Templars are not inherently evil and some Circles are better than others. After all Tevinter still has a Circle and it was made for the same reason as all the others. The problem lies with zealots and psychopaths that think their way is better. Meredith, Alrik and Anders all fall under this category. We sympathize with Anders because he reacts to the dire situation in Kirkwall but ultimately he proves he is just as bad.

 

Tbh at first I used to dislike the chantry because it reminded me too much of Christian church. I hate what it has done to my country and I thought chantry is the same. But lately I've been more supportive. If I can agree with the views of the head of an organization then I can look past zealots and people that just don't know any better.

[MisterJB]

I can concede that we all have out freedom infringed on to a certain degree. The problem is that their is a huge difference between what a normal citizen and a mage experiences. You can't have mages subject to different ones just because of their danger. I don't see people in jail just because they own a rifle or know how to make a grenade. So how come you find it ok for a mage to be imprisoned without cause?

Because...mages are dangerous.

You have already said that you don't believe their danger justifies it but I disagree. Connor, an 8 year old boy, destroyed a city; that could have been prevented had he been in the Circle.

Thedas does not not have rifles or grenades; it has sword and bows and then there are people who can summon firestorms. It does not have cars or helycopters which means any reaction to a mage threat will arrive there in time to bury the bodies at best.

Those of us who support the Templars feel that the few more months Isolde spent with her child were not worth orphaning many of Redcliff's children. The right to security of normals takes precedence the right to freedom of mages.

 

The Circles prevent these disasters: they diminish the number of defenseless people exposed to potential magical disasters and they place the response team right down the hall.

There are restrictions but is it not fair that those who present a greater danger to their fellow man have the strictest restrictions?

 

Besides, the restrictions are not that unresonable. Mages can do everything normal citizens can with the exception of procreating; there are simply more loopholes to jump through before.

And, in return, they are given acess to a standard of life most people outside of the nobility could only dream of. The orlesian mages lived in Emperor Drakon's former palace, after all; they are also granted free food, clothes and an education.

 

I acknowledge that it's not perfect and there need to be more avenues through which mages can protect themselves from Templar abuse but is the Circle truly so terrible an option?

 

[Mistic]

Like the Jedi the mages would have to be above petty concerns like nationhood to make that viable.

 

That was one of the good points about the (old?) Circles: the Chantry was a supranational institution, so they could rise above national interests to impose an international standard.

 

Same thing happened with the Super Hero Registration act. The difference is the various nations still want to use the mages when it suits them.And they can't do that unless they have some means of control.

 

What happened in Marvel's Civil War was a bit different, though. Until that point there were superheroes and supervillains (the moral divide), but superheroes were pretty much liked until a disaster happened. It was difficult to accept hunting people that the day before were just saving you and your family.

 

We have to understand where mage persecution comes from. Historical perspective is necessary, including in Thedas.

 

The Chantry didn't decide one day that mages were evil and had to be imprisoned. The root of it it's the old Tevinter Imperium. Their magisters were one of the worst bunch of bastards ever. Not satisfied with crushing down every neighbouring nation except their classist pals, the Dwarven Empire, they enslaved thousands and did horrible experiments. The disastrous Fade Walking that gave birth to the Darkspawn is the most famous one, but DAII revealed others like the Secret of Kirkwall.

 

So when a barbarian named Andraste comes to the conquered and the enslaved and tells them that God loves them and that the mage overlords can be kicked out, what do you think they are going to do? Revenge! And then Andraste was burned alive by the same corrupt magisters. Only one of them felt guilty, the Archon Hessarian, and then used it to get rid of the opposition to his reforms. Even in Tevinter, muggles killed mages.

 

Then came the years of chaos. There was no Chantry. There were a lot of cults. Without the Imperium providing support and Maferath's little kingdoms imploding and reforming themselves, a lot of mages were left unchecked. Probably more than one tried to revive the old ways (mages on top, of course). Then came the Inquisition. People forget that part, but at that point in history the crimes caused by mages were more appalling than anything the Chantry has done.

 

What happened after that is a mystery, that we'll likely find out in DA:I. It wouldn't have been very difficult to sell the "Kill all mages!" stance. But it didn't happen. The Chantry accepted them (with conditions), Emperor Drakon valued their power for the war against the Blight, and the Inquisition merged with the Chantry to do their duty in a more peaceful way. Could it have been done better? Probably yes. Could it have been worse? Definitely. So I hope the game will provide players with meaningful choices akin to those which led to the Nevarran Accords. And yes, that includes being able to support the Chantry... among other options.

 

(And now I'm sounding like a Chantry supporter; that's my fault for playing devil's advocate)

[Eveangaline]

They are an extremely powerful private army in a time of war. That means the last thing they'll be wanting for is jobs and money.
 

A private army needs funding. No one is paying them to get mages anymore. No one is paying them to keep them. Unless they're willing to act as mercenaries they're not going to be pulling in any profit and if they do that, that's just going to make them more enemies and make their separation from the chantry more apparent.

[Jaison1986]

Because...mages are dangerous.

You have already said that you don't believe their danger justifies it but I disagree. Connor, an 8 year old boy, destroyed a city; that could have been prevented had he been in the Circle.

Thedas does not not have rifles or grenades; it has sword and bows and then there are people who can summon firestorms. It does not have cars or helycopters which means any reaction to a mage threat will arrive there in time to bury the bodies at best.

Those of us who support the Templars feel that the few more months Isolde spent with her child were not worth orphaning many of Redcliff's children. The right to security of normals takes precedence the right to freedom of mages.

 

The Circles prevent these disasters: they diminish the number of defenseless people exposed to potential magical disasters and they place the response team right down the hall.

There are restrictions but is it not fair that those who present a greater danger to their fellow man have the strictest restrictions?

 

Besides, the restrictions are not that unresonable. Mages can do everything normal citizens can with the exception of procreating; there are simply more loopholes to jump through before.

And, in return, they are given acess to a standard of life most people outside of the nobility could only dream of. The orlesian mages lived in Emperor Drakon's former palace, after all; they are also granted free food, clothes and an education.

 

I acknowledge that it's not perfect and there need to be more avenues through which mages can protect themselves from Templar abuse but is the Circle truly so terrible an option?

 

Wich would be all fine and dandy if the ones watching the mages were resonable people, but they are not. The templars at Rivain were pretty lenient about the mages and their freedoms, and yet, we never heard of any horrible disaster happening because of that. In fact, the only disaster that happened was when the Sekeers showed up and started an killing spree.

[MisterJB]

Wich would be all fine and dandy if the ones watching the mages were resonable people, but they are not. The templars at Rivain were pretty lenient about the mages and their freedoms, and yet, we never heard of any horrible disaster happening because of that. In fact, the only disaster that happened was when the Sekeers showed up and started an killing spree.

Well, the ones in the Anderfels are pretty strict and we've also never heard of any horrible disaster happening because of that. Clearly, this proves that the stricter, the better.

Or maybe we've met a grand total or three people from either nation and just don't have sufficient information.

[MisterJB]

A private army needs funding. No one is paying them to get mages anymore. No one is paying them to keep them. Unless they're willing to act as mercenaries they're not going to be pulling in any profit and if they do that, that's just going to make them more enemies and make their separation from the chantry more apparent.

Right now, the mages are out of control. That means abuses of power and Abominations. Why wouldn't they be paid to deal with these problems?

Besides, now that the nobles have been torn in two, the Templars should have the strongest military in the land. Every side in this Civil War will try to be their patron
And yes, they can just work as mercenaries. The Templars shouldn't lack for money.

[Eveangaline]

Right now, the mages are out of control. That means abuses of power and Abominations. Why wouldn't they be paid to deal with these problems?

Besides, now that the nobles have been torn in two, the Templars should have the strongest military in the land. Every side in this Civil War will try to be their patron
And yes, they can just work as mercenaries. The Templars shouldn't lack for money.

 

Who is going to pay them? They broke off from the Chantry, their previous source of income. And if they make deals with the local governments, the local governments will probably try to impose some kind of restrictions on them as well, which is exactly why they said FU to the chantry. Whoever pays them is going to want some measure of control over what they do to the mages and I don't see them allowing that.

 

Where are you getting that they are the strongest military in the land? Wouldn't the actual militias of many countries, nobles, the gray wardens, or other mercenary groups be better or at least equal to them? Like at least those groups don't have to deal with all their slightly older members going lyrium loopy.

 

Why would anyone want to patron an army of zealots with their own cause they put before yours? That's just asking them to spend their money on stuff that doesn't work for you. And if they're out being mercenaries, they're probably not getting a lot of mage hunting done.

[Mistic]

Right now, the mages are out of control. That means abuses of power and Abominations. Why wouldn't they be paid to deal with these problems?

Besides, now that the nobles have been torn in two, the Templars should have the strongest military in the land. Every side in this Civil War will try to be their patron
And yes, they can just work as mercenaries. The Templars shouldn't lack for money.

 

Isn't that assuming too many things?

 

First, why pay them? Ok, they can offer their services in payment. But what services? Rogue armies are as dangerous as rogue mages. What if I prefer to have mages on my side, to use them in the civil war? That was actually a prospect discussed by Wynne and her companions in Asunder. Then the templars would be enemies.

 

Now the Templars are a rogue army, and it's more likely for them to start pillaging and robbing like other rogue armies or mercenaries without payment have done through history. In fact, that's the reason a lot of subjects accepted the power of feudal lords in the past: to be protected from such dangers.

 

Of course, that leads us to the Templars trying to seize lands. Ok, that I can see. It would be a logical solution. They're not the "strongest military" (to begin with, they're scattered around Thedas, and even if they weren't, I'm sure the Orlesian candidates and kingdoms like Nevarra have more power). Still, I'm sure it will be enough to take some keeps.

[The Elder King]

A new location is revealed, focused on the mage/templar war, and both sides seem....bad.
Maybe this week we might know the difference between templars and RT.

[Mistic]

A new location is revealed, focused on the mage/templar war, and both sides seem....bad.
Maybe this week we might know the difference between templars and RT.

 

It's true! Thanks!

http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

My lord Arl Teagan,

I retired to the Hinterlands for peace and quiet away from the politics, and because the wide open spaces were perfect to let my horses run. Instead, the war between the mages and the templars has turned your beautiful hills into a series of burning battlefields.

The farmers who live in the Hinterlands are good folk. Many of them left Redcliffe village because they couldn't bear to be there anymore, not after the Blight and the walking dead left so many bad memories. Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways, and templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers.

My wife Elaina sent off our field hands to stay with her family in the east, but there are a lot of poor people here with nowhere to go. We get more refugees every day: this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff. I suppose you're stretched thin, but anything you can do to lessen the burden of these poor folk would be much appreciated. I'll do as I can, and if your men need better mounts, say the word.

Best of luck to you, my lord. Remember not to let Duchess puff out her gut when you saddle her.

Yours in service,
Dennet

-A letter from Redcliffe's former horsemaster to Arl Eamon of Redcliffe (undelivered)

 

Ok, important things:

-The war has reached Ferelden.

-Common people are suffering offences from both sides.

-Mages have become paranoid and are attacking anything and anyone that they consider a danger.

-As I guessed, templars and already resorting to looting and using the "mage lover!" card to crush down complainers.

 

But more important: why the hell the horsemaster says "My lord Arl Teagan" and then the line at the end says "to Arl Eamon of Redcliffe"?

[The Elder King]

I guess it's because both might be Arl of Redcliffe based on our choices, and they made a mistake because of that.

[In Exile]

Who is going to pay them? They broke off from the Chantry, their previous source of income. And if they make deals with the local governments, the local governments will probably try to impose some kind of restrictions on them as well, which is exactly why they said FU to the chantry. Whoever pays them is going to want some measure of control over what they do to the mages and I don't see them allowing that.

 

Where are you getting that they are the strongest military in the land? Wouldn't the actual militias of many countries, nobles, the gray wardens, or other mercenary groups be better or at least equal to them? Like at least those groups don't have to deal with all their slightly older members going lyrium loopy.

 

Why would anyone want to patron an army of zealots with their own cause they put before yours? That's just asking them to spend their money on stuff that doesn't work for you. And if they're out being mercenaries, they're probably not getting a lot of mage hunting done.

 

In terms of the strongest military, the templars are professional soldiers. The only other professional soldiers (or equivalents) we see are, really, knights like the Chevalier and other nobles who have similar training. Compared to your average medieval army, the templars presumably lean toward the more "elite" end of the spectrum. But they seem to be trained in a very particular kind of police work versus proper army work, so their quality as individual soldiers is probably different from what they can do on a proper battlefield. 

 

But more important: why the hell the horsemaster says "My lord Arl Teagan" and then the line at the end says "to Arl Eamon of Redcliffe"?

 

There isn't anything confusing about that. He worked for Arl Eamon, but he's addressing "Arl Teagan". It's like writing "Dear President Obama" and signing it "Former Secretary of State to President George W. Bush". 

[Nohvarr]

Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways,

 

So mages burn innocent people out of fear.

 

templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers.

 

I feared this would happen, without the Chantry acting as a break on their worst excess the Templars will do whatever they can get away with. They began as an organization of mage hunters before they joined the Chantry and they are returning to that mandate.

 

We get more refugees every day: this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff. I suppose you're stretched thin, but anything you can do to lessen the burden of these poor folk would be much appreciated.

 

Between the Civil War in Orlais, and the loss of trained solider in Fereldan after the blight, I doubt there's a fighting force capable of taking on both factions before the creation of the Inquisition.

[The Elder King]

Mages and templars are acting in a similar way, which is what I wanted, though I'd have preferred if they acted in a more neutral way and not in a completely negative way.
Oh well, I'll gladly put both in line.

[MisterJB]

Isn't that assuming too many things?

 

First, why pay them? Ok, they can offer their services in payment. But what services? Rogue armies are as dangerous as rogue mages.

Precisely, which is they need thme to stop being a rogue army. What better way than to become their patron? Certainly, neither Gaspard or Celene can dispens the men to deal with them.

 

 

What if I prefer to have mages on my side, to use them in the civil war?

If Celene extends an hand to the mages, Gaspard will just hire the Templars and vice-versa.

 

 

Of course, that leads us to the Templars trying to seize lands. Ok, that I can see. It would be a logical solution. They're not the "strongest military" (to begin with, they're scattered around Thedas, and even if they weren't, I'm sure the Orlesian candidates and kingdoms like Nevarra have more power). Still, I'm sure it will be enough to take some keeps.

They were the only international organization in Thedas with enough men to keep several Circles meant to contain living cannons.

I'd say that, the simple fact they're international means that, should they pool their numbers together, they should overwhelm any national military, especially when the Orlesian one is divided.

Plus, they are all specially trained soldiers while national armies vary from Chevaliers to peasants armed with forks.

[MisterJB]

"Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways, and templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers...this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff."

 

Ah, now THIS...THIS gives me hope the game will not be biased. Maybe there is hope yet for DAI.

[The Elder King]

"Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways, and templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers...this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff."
 
Ah, now THIS...THIS gives me hope the game will not be biased. Maybe there is hope yet for DAI.

I have hope for DAI regardless of this, but agreed.

[MisterJB]

I'm guessing we'll be less pro-Templar or pro-mage and more pro-peace, pro-common people, pro-lets end this bullshit war right now.

 

Which suits me just fine; unsuprisingly, it's not the "opressed" mages who are suffering the most from this, it's the little man.

[The Elder King]

I'm guessing we'll be less pro-Templar or pro-mage and more pro-peace, pro-common people, pro-lets end this bullshit war right now.
 
Which suits me just fine; unsuprisingly, it's not the "opressed" mages who are suffering the most from this, it's the little man.

Agreed on the suffering ones.
I think we'll be able to be pro-mage, pro-templar or pro-compromise, with the goal of ending the war in the region quickly.
It doesn't sound like the mage-templar war in general will end in DAI though, which is what I expecting.

[MisterJB]

Without any malice, just curiosity, do those who believe that this war was necessary still support it after knowing what is really happening?