Do you mean the rebellion?Without any malice, just curiosity, do those who believe that thi was was necessary still support it after nowing what is really happening?
They were the only international organization in Thedas with enough men to keep several Circles meant to contain living cannons.I'd say that, the simple fact they're international means that, should they pool their numbers together, they should overwhelm any national military, especially when the Orlesian one is divided.
Plus, they are all specially trained soldiers while national armies vary from Chevaliers to peasants armed with forks.
Being trained to deal with mages doesn't mean being able to deal with normal soldiers. Of course, just being trained at all is a plus for them.
But are you sure with the numbers? Yes, being an international organization with several garrisons is good, but remember that the Circles aren't the only keeps in the world. Thedosian countries are, in general, feudal societies. Each feudal lord should have at least a keep, and each keep a garrison. Then add the royal army to that and the levies, and that would make any national army far greater than the combined Templar forces, at least in numbers.
I think it's not a coincidence that the game is going to showcase the Mage-Templar War in Orlais and Ferelden. The first country is in the middle of a civil war and the second country is recovering from another civil war and the Blight. I don't see the so far intact Nevarran forces allowing any kind of bullshit from them.
I'm guessing we'll be less pro-Templar or pro-mage and more pro-peace, pro-common people, pro-lets end this bullshit war right now.
Which suits me just fine; unsuprisingly, it's not the "opressed" mages who are suffering the most from this, it's the little man.
Yeah, I agree. Those who suffer are always the same.
To the mages: "Oppressed? Oppressed?! Take a look at those peasants! They are oppressed, for real! Oppresed by their feudal lords, by taxes, by criminals, by famine, by sickness, by climate itself! And now you think that it's funny to throw fireballs at them because they didn't like you and didn't give you what you wanted? So you should have life and freedom, but those poor souls not?"
To the templars: "And you! You! So, "champions of the people, protecting the world from the dangers of magic"? And who protects the world from you? The moment you realized that you didn't have money or food, you started robbing the very people you ought to protect! And then you had the nerve to kill those who complained and accuse them of being mages or aiding them!"
Precisely, which is they need thme to stop being a rogue army. What better way than to become their patron? Certainly, neither Gaspard or Celene can dispens the men to deal with them.
If Celene extends an hand to the mages, Gaspard will just hire the Templars and vice-versa.
They were the only international organization in Thedas with enough men to keep several Circles meant to contain living cannons.
I'd say that, the simple fact they're international means that, should they pool their numbers together, they should overwhelm any national military, especially when the Orlesian one is divided.
Plus, they are all specially trained soldiers while national armies vary from Chevaliers to peasants armed with forks.
By that logic, they should just hire all bandits in the area. Also, there are other countries that would have issues with the Templars than just orlais. But seriously, why hire someone who has their own agenda they will put before fighting for your agendas? ANd will actively fight you if your agenda ever conflicts with theirs?
The fact that they're international doesn't mean there's enough of them to overwhelm a national military. It just means that they were in different countries. Where are you pulling these numbers from that make you think there's so many?
They are all specially trained..trained specially to fight mages. That hardly means they will do too well against other trained combatants.
"This is the justice all mages have awaited."
Oh, go plow yourself, you Abomination!
By that logic, they should just hire all bandits in the area. Also, there are other countries that would have issues with the Templars than just orlais.
Paying bandit forces too strong to confortably crush to leave your lands alone was not that rare.
The fact that they're international doesn't mean there's enough of them to overwhelm a national military. It just means that they were in different countries. Where are you pulling these numbers from that make you think there's so many?
If they can garrison several Circles plus cities in every nation in Thedas, evidently they must have immense numbers. I can't say for sure that they have more men than, say, a Nevarra at full strenght but there is a good chance they do.
They are all specially trained..trained specially to fight mages. That hardly means they will do too well against other trained combatants.
Being trained to be a professional killer automatically places them above the rank and file of feudal armies. At most, I see them, maybe, having issues in massive battles (since it's not something they're accostumed to) but it's not like they'd be fighting alone.
Bandits at least didn't just publicly buck the entire church and paint themselves as heretics. For all we know there could be an exalted march called on the templars themselves. It still seems like you're pulling these numbers out of nowhere. Several circles per nation isn't it only one per?EDIT:Just looked it up on the wiki there's only 15 circles outside of tevinter. Plus the point of paying off bandits was that they not attack. The templars will still attack citizens if they think there's a mage in the group and will still attack you if you hire mages for your army. Being patrons of them would just be a waste of money.
And while they may be better trained than grunt soldiers, those armies have the advantage of being able to get new recruits whenever, wheras templars are probably going to have a serious problem getting new people to replace the dead, what with again, having just told the church where to stick it.
And if they're spending all their time chasing mages and trying to contain/fight them they're losing numbers, and they're losing time they could be spent trying to get supplies or support from either nobles or anything that actually keeps their organization going.
Templars are likely on the same level as man at arms with very few having actual combat experience. they are hardly the elite you make them out to be JB.
Templars are likely on the same level as man at arms with very few having actual combat experience. they are hardly the elite you make them out to be JB.
Plus the men of arm aren't on drugs. I mean have we forgotten the effects lyrium has on people over time? Not to mention how friggen EXPENSIVE lyrium is? And that the chantry controls the trade of it, and that templars need it to do their jobs?
Templars are likely on the same level as man at arms with very few having actual combat experience. they are hardly the elite you make them out to be JB.
I am forced to disagree. Aside from tracking down rogue circle mages and Apostates they were also responsible fro providing security to the Chantry. I'd argue that they've been in combat more than you might think.
9:37 Mages and Templars battle in Kirkwall
9:40 Lambert dissolves the Circle
Three years to prepare, three years to stockpile, three long years to ready themselves. Are you sure the Templars are as unprepared as you are thinking?
If they can garrison several Circles plus cities in every nation in Thedas, evidently they must have immense numbers. I can't say for sure that they have more men than, say, a Nevarra at full strenght but there is a good chance they do.
As I said, you're forgetting that Thedosian nations also have garrisons and keeps. And they probably have more numbers in them. Not to talk about levies.
To talk about numbers, let's take a look at international military orders in the Middle Ages. According to Wikipedia, estimates for the real Knights Templar were 15,000-20,000 at their peak, of whom only a tenth would be actual knights. Impressive for a standing army, especially in the Middle Ages, but still less than the combined forces of France, for example.
I am forced to disagree. Aside from tracking down rogue circle mages and Apostates they were also responsible fro providing security to the Chantry. I'd argue that they've been in combat more than you might think.
9:37 Mages and Templars battle in Kirkwall
9:40 Lambert dissolves the Circle
Three years to prepare, three years to stockpile, three long years to ready themselves. Are you sure the Templars are as unprepared as you are thinking?
Considering that letter mentions them having to loot innocent people for supplies, they sound pretty unprepared.
Considering that letter mentions them having to loot innocent people for supplies, they sound pretty unprepared.
And how long has it been since this campaign began? How many fronts are they fighting on? The Templars are they looting because the have to or just because they can?
And how long has it been since this campaign began? How many fronts are they fighting on? The Templars are they looting because the have to or just because they can?
Frankly if they're looting just because they can that means that along with the people and the nobility and the law we can add 'competing bandits' to their list of enemies. Actually I guess it doesn't matter why they're looting, bandits would be on the list.
So, enemies they have to fight in order to remain not subject to the laws of either the chantry or the land: Mages, obviously, the chantry, the nobility of the rulers and armies of countries they are in, the people who don't want to hand over mages or supplies, the people who don't like them for going against the chantry, the people who don't like them for killing people who don't like them going after mages or for leaving the chantry. And competing bandits who don't like them looting the places they wanted to loot.
I just don't see an ending for the templars where they get to exist but not have to be subject and controlled by either the church or the kingdoms they're in. It just doesn't work out.
Frankly if they're looting just because they can that means that along with the people and the nobility and the law we can add 'competing bandits' to their list of enemies.
The original point was that the Templars, loosed from Chantry control are more of a threat than they were before. This letter bears that fear out. They are attacking and looting people who can not defend themselves, and whatever law is in the area seems unable to stop them. The fact that the Inquisition will have to settle this issue in some fashion shows that, for whatever reason, neither the local government, Watch, or other bandits were up to the task of stopping the Templars.
You can argue that people will turn against them, or that they will run out of money, the latter of which is highly debatable considering the options open to them. That said, how many more innocent people will die between the time the Templars start waging their private vendetta and the time they are forced to stop by either an opposing force large enough to crush them, or by running out of resources?
The answer is too damn many.
The original point was that the Templars, loosed from Chantry control are more of a threat than they were before. This letter bears that fear out. They are attacking and looting people who can not defend themselves, and whatever law is in the area seems unable to stop them. The fact that the Inquisition will have to settle this issue in some fashion shows that, for whatever reason, neither the local government, Watch, or other bandits were up to the task of stopping the Templars.
You can argue that people will turn against them, or that they will run out of money, the latter of which is highly debatable considering the options open to them. That said, how many more innocent people will die between the time the Templars start waging their private vendetta and the time they are forced to stop by either an opposing force large enough to crush them, or by running out of resources?
The answer is too damn many.
I..never said that they won't kill a lot of people before they go down? Frankly if they'd just be reasonable and agree to let the kingdoms decide how to have a circle system that's better than the old one I would be thrilled. But instead they made dumb decisions.
And frankly if they have to buy lyrium (which they have to) which is absurdly expensive and whose trade is controlled by the church I don't think them running out of money is that debatable.
I..never said that they won't kill a lot of people before they go down? Frankly if they'd just be reasonable and agree to let the kingdoms decide how to have a circle system that's better than the old one I would be thrilled. But instead they made dumb decisions.
The Chantry had a standard of education and fair treatment (one that was being worked on to improve the situation of mages) across all it's circles. There were abuses of power but there was a centralized authority that had set down the parameters all were to follow. If each nation begins deciding how to do it for themselves there will be no guarantee that the opportunities and level of fair treatment shown to mages will even reach the level they enjoy under Chantry control. We've already seen that the Imperial Chantry is useless in preventing mages from doing whatever they want, it could easily go the same way or infact be worse for mages if we follow your plan
We seem to be talking a lot about the Templars. Strange since this is a Chantry thread and the Templars are for the most part(aka the ones being discussed) are no longer connected to it.
The Chantry had a standard of education and fair treatment (one that was being worked on to improve the situation of mages) across all it's circles. There were abuses of power but there was a centralized authority that had set down the parameters all were to follow. If each nation begins deciding how to do it for themselves there will be no guarantee that the opportunities and level of fair treatment shown to mages will even reach the level they enjoy under Chantry control. We've already seen that the Imperial Chantry is useless in preventing mages from doing whatever they want, it could easily go the same way or infact be worse for mages if we follow your plan
"There's no guarantee" isn't that good an argument. There was no guarantee things would go well with the Chantry involved. And they didn't work out with the chantry running it in fact, **** got blown up and their military force broke off and the mages are all escaping. I think that a standard of education and fair treatment are good. I don't think the Chantry is necessary for that to happen. I don't think a church should get to decide what laws are in place for handling groups of people, that should go to a secular authority. And if a secular authority screws up by either giving too much power or too little to mages they are easier questioned by the people and easier regulated, they don't have "But it is the will of GOD" to fall back on. For all it may start off better or worse from region to region being under secular control makes it easier for the mages to ask for help from the nobility of their country if things go wrong and for the law itself to check in and make sure things are going well instead of just having to check with templars.
Why are you using the imperial chantry as an example? They're a religious institution not a secular one like I'm arguing.
We seem to be talking a lot about the Templars. Strange since this is a Chantry thread and the Templars are for the most part(aka the ones being discussed) are no longer connected to it.
I think this is in large part my fault for saying I hoped we could be pro-chantry while being anti-templar. I have no problem with teaching or preaching the chant I just don't want it to be militarized and deciding what laws there are.
What difference is that from departing from the Chantry? The wanted independence, and that has been said from the very caodex entry about fraternities in DA:O. They were advocates of that in Asunder.
Because common knowledge says that mages are capable of things almost as bad as a Blight. In fact, legend says that the very existence of the darkspawn is the mages' fault, so no wonder people in power distrust them. You can't say "mages haven't done anything wrong to justify that treatment" because Thedosian history teaches us that they did. Another thing is that today innocents pay for the sins of sinners.
Although I agree that the rewarding system is better (and that has been part of the Circle's main problem, too many sticks and few carrots), you shouldn't expect a reward for doing your duty.
You talk about the mages. What about the Fereldan soldiers? What about the templars? What about the dwarves? What about the elves? The boon was granted to the Warden, because he or she went beyond the call of duty and managed the impossible, to unite a broken country and defeat a Blight in record time. The rest? They were required to fight because of ancient treaties, so they should be content that they won. I mean, at least the mages were fighting for the land they live in, unlike the Dalish or the Dwarves.
According to what the codex said in exact quote "The Libertarians, a growing fraternity, publicly maintaining greater power for the Circles but secretly advocating a complete split from the Chantry-a dangerous opinion, naturally." In Asunder the leader of the Aequitarians made a Libertarian decision and chooses to fight instead of returning back to White Sphire, where they would all most likely be executed or to be made tranquil. Lord Seeker made such an unstable habitat for the mages that now they're being forced to fight for their freedom.
As for Mages starting the first blight all comes down to what was said in Chantry lore.
http://dragonage.wik...agon_of_Silence
It was Dumat's followers who are believed to have entered the Golden City, thereby corrupting it with their presence.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Darkspawn
Heaven by violence destroyed it. What was
Golden and pure turned black.
Those who had once been mage-lords,
The brightest of their age,
Were no longer men, but monsters.
--Threnodies 12:1.
As I read more lore about the Darkspawn and the creation of it I notice that It always have to involved in a chantry priest, no other unbiased author. This is what the chantry teaches the gullible mundanes, and why mages are so hated by the general public. They make such slanderous and liable accusation articles to maintain their full support to the public by spreading fear. Unless if I start seeing some non-Chantry authors that can actually provide proof that Mages are to blame for the first blight then I'm going to say that blaming the Chantries version of Tevinter Imperium mages becoming the first darkspawn is just gibberish and nonsense, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Why should anyone support the Chantry? They're so inhumane!
You're right bombing a religious center is far more humane.
(Sarcasm)
As I read more lore about the Darkspawn and the creation of it I notice that It always have to involved in a chantry priest, no other unbiased author. This is what the chantry teaches the gullible mundanes, and why mages are so hated by the general public. They make such slanderous and liable accusation articles to maintain their full support to the public by spreading fear. Unless if I start seeing some non-Chantry authors that can actually provide proof that Mages are to blame for the first blight then I'm going to say that blaming the Chantries version of Tevinter Imperium mages becoming the first darkspawn is just gibberish and nonsense, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Looks like someone hasn't played Dragon Age 2: Legacy.
According to what the codex said in exact quote "The Libertarians, a growing fraternity, publicly maintaining greater power for the Circles but secretly advocating a complete split from the Chantry-a dangerous opinion, naturally." In Asunder the leader of the Aequitarians made a Libertarian decision and chooses to fight instead of returning back to White Sphire, where they would all most likely be executed or to be made tranquil. Lord Seeker made such an unstable habitat for the mages that now they're being forced to fight for their freedom.
As for Mages starting the first blight all comes down to what was said in Chantry lore.
http://dragonage.wik...agon_of_Silence
It was Dumat's followers who are believed to have entered the Golden City, thereby corrupting it with their presence.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Darkspawn
Heaven by violence destroyed it. What was
Golden and pure turned black.
Those who had once been mage-lords,
The brightest of their age,
Were no longer men, but monsters.
--Threnodies 12:1.
As I read more lore about the Darkspawn and the creation of it I notice that It always have to involved in a chantry priest, no other unbiased author. This is what the chantry teaches the gullible mundanes, and why mages are so hated by the general public. They make such slanderous and liable accusation articles to maintain their full support to the public by spreading fear. Unless if I start seeing some non-Chantry authors that can actually provide proof that Mages are to blame for the first blight then I'm going to say that blaming the Chantries version of Tevinter Imperium mages becoming the first darkspawn is just gibberish and nonsense, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
You're right bombing a religious center is far more humane.
(Sarcasm)
Looks like someone hasn't played Dragon Age 2: Legacy.
Yeah so is decapitating ones ability to display emotions, and thinks is the best thing for mages. Yeah Karl really love having his emotions taken away by the corruption of the Chantry. Bombing them seems to be so justified.
Yes I've played Legacy.
And besides I would think that it would probably be the times and the culture that they are living in. Most people in the world of Dragon Age would be quite poor, poverty stricken, busy working on farms and in back alleys or as taverns and shop keepers. Most people would have almost zero interest in thier history in the Dragon Age because they are too busy surviving. The Chantry priests, brothers, and sisters are in a much better position to do so. Because of their monastic life and their relative improvement on circumstances it would leave them more capable to wonder, and investigate, the history of Thedas. Will there be bias? Of course there would be. But on the other end of the spectrum every single Tevinter Magister we have met has been despicable human beings. Slavery is STILL legal in Tevinter, the only country where that is true. And we also know that they are still ruled by their Magisters.
...Though on the flip side the Chantry could be quite wrong about the Darkspawn, but as others have said, even Corypheus tends to suppose otherwise.
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