532 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimlowyn]

From what I gather from the books, the general populace by far supports the Templars.

[Al Foley]

You're joking right? I just explained why.

I was talking specifically about Meredith.  If anyone stole anything its because they did it, without Chantry knowledge or approval. 

[Lord Raijin]

We know people fear mages. And we know those people know Templars stop mages. So logically, they'll still support the Templars. Same as those citizens who are moved by the mages' plights will suport the mages. So technically, yes I am guessing but it is an educated guess. And those that Cullen was referring to were the people of Kirkwall, whose Templars were much worse than the Templars of over nations. Remember that DA2 was showing the worst of both sides, not the norm. 

 

Who are those people who outnumber the Templar supporters? Or are you just voicing your opinion? 

Why do people fear mages so much? Who has the biggest influence over the people? The Chantry. The religion has became so dangerously powerful that their influences has been infused with some countries politics, like Kirkwall. A nobility must get an approval by the templars prior to becoming the new ruler, and that is wrong. Even  Knight-Commander Guylian had to remind the corrupted Divine (Divine Beatrix III) that it was not in his place nor the Templar's to get involved. He said exactly this in his letter:

 

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself."

 

The Chantry teaches people to fear mages and hate mages because they fear and hate the mages themselves. In the Circle they remind the mages that they're a curse. Some even want to die because the psychological abuse that they get is so overwhelming.

 

Just imagine a group of regular mundane like people, Like Mistress Selby, who had their children, or a brother, sister or even a parent that has magic talents being taken away from them by the Templar's to be carted off to the Circle. According to Anders they even humiliate them by putting shackles on them in front of their neighbors and friends.

 

Each time a Templar do something like to someone, they're creating a mage sympathizer so do the math.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why do people fear mages so much? Who has the biggest influence over the people? The Chantry. The religion has became so dangerously powerful that their influences has been infused with some countries politics, like Kirkwall. A nobility must get an approval by the templars prior to becoming the new ruler, and that is wrong. Even  Knight-Commander Guylian had to remind the corrupted Divine (Divine Beatrix III) that it was not in his place nor the Templar's to get involved. He said exactly this in his letter:

 

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself."

 

The Chantry teaches people to fear mages and hate mages because they fear and hate the mages themselves. In the Circle they remind the mages that they're a curse. Some even want to die because the psychological abuse that they get is so overwhelming.

 

Just imagine a group of regular mundane like people, Like Mistress Selby, who had their children, or a brother, sister or even a parent that has magic talents being taken away from them by the Templar's to be carted off to the Circle. According to Anders they even humiliate them by putting shackles on them in front of their neighbors and friends.

 

Each time a Templar do something like to someone, they're creating a mage sympathizer so do the math.

 

I'd say Tevinter is the biggest cause of people to fear magic. The people of Thedas hear of the atrocities the magisters of today cause, as well as know what the magisters of the past did(and I'm not even referring to Cory and the gang who created the Blights). 

 

You have to admit that magic is a double-edged sword. You are gifted with great power, but are cursed to the possibility of demonic possession whenever you take so much as a cat nap. 

 

"According to Anders" makes me immediately dismiss any claims that follow. He is a known liar and will say anything to win sympathy. Wynne says the Templars who came for her were some of the nicest people she had been exposed to in her life, the first to treat her as a person since she developed her talents. 

 

And likewise, every time an apostate or malificarum does something to someone, they make a Templar supporter. 

[Mistic]

Why do people fear mages so much? Who has the biggest influence over the people? The Chantry. The religion has became so dangerously powerful that their influences has been infused with some countries politics, like Kirkwall. A nobility must get an approval by the templars prior to becoming the new ruler, and that is wrong. Even  Knight-Commander Guylian had to remind the corrupted Divine (Divine Beatrix III) that it was not in his place nor the Templar's to get involved. He said exactly this in his letter:

 

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself."

 

The Chantry teaches people to fear mages and hate mages because they fear and hate the mages themselves. In the Circle they remind the mages that they're a curse. Some even want to die because the psychological abuse that they get is so overwhelming.

 

Ok, people hate mages because of the Chantry's teachings. And why does the Chantry fear mages? No, fear itself is not a reason. Andraste didn't wake up one day and said "Mwahahaha, let's oppress mages, because I'm evil!".

 

No, what every mage supporter must acknowledge is that the worst crimes against humanity in Thedas have come from the old Tevinter Imperium, a magocracy so reviled that its memory still influences the current Thedas. The Chantry was created in a period of chaos, some decades after Andraste, the one who freed the conquered and the enslaved, was betrayed and killed. When cults roamed the lands and there was no central power to call for aid. When the Inquisition imparted justice in their own way, no law to be upheld but their own.

 

The Chantry at least created rules and laws everyone could follow and that could keep everyone alive. Now those rules and laws have become ineffective, but you must understand that they didn't come from a void of pure evil.

 

Just imagine a group of regular mundane like people, Like Mistress Selby, who had their children, or a brother, sister or even a parent that has magic talents being taken away from them by the Templar's to be carted off to the Circle. According to Anders they even humiliate them by putting shackles on them in front of their neighbors and friends.

 

Each time a Templar do something like to someone, they're creating a mage sympathizer so do the math.

 

Good numbers. Then compare them to the families and friends of those who died from blood mage cults, abominations and magical accidents. We've seen our fair share of them in DA:O and DAII.

[AkiKishi]

We have to understand where mage persecution comes from. Historical perspective is necessary, including in Thedas.

 

 

I'm not so sure that's all that relevant and simply obfuscates the core issue.You have a group of people who are far more powerful than the majority of the population who can destroy things on a whim.To make matters worse they are not 100% in control of that power is some cases.

Either they police themselves, or you need some sort of greater force. Looking at the screenshots posted here it looks like someone in making the Thedas version of a sentinel. 

 

In all cases, such individuals either live appart from society (Jedi,Xmen) or they have secret identities (Spiderman) or they try to convince society that they are the good guys (Iron Man,Fantastic Four) by fighting threats from other like powered individuals and the odd alien.

[Nohvarr]

 

Again why should I support the Chantry when they caused so much damage?

You won't support the Chantry because you've taken the word of a possessed mage with questionable mental stability as Gospel. You've made his view your own, and through those eyes alone do you see the world, no other. That would be like me seeing everything through Merediths idol influenced yes.

 

So, since you won't listen to anything I say, how about you listen to what your own hero has to say on the subject.

 

 

That's Anders, when he was sane, before a well meaning fusion sent him off the deep end.

 

He may not like Chantry oversight, and that's fine he' allowed to have a dissenting opinion. But having a dissenting opinion and working via peaceful means to change something is a far cry from blowing up a building and killing an old woman who was holding the Templars in check.

[Mistic]

I'm not so sure that's all that relevant and simply obfuscates the core issue.You have a group of people who are far more powerful than the majority of the population who can destroy things on a whim.To make matters worse they are not 100% in control of that power is some cases.

Either they police themselves, or you need some sort of greater force. Looking at the screenshots posted here it looks like someone in making the Thedas version of a sentinel. 

 

In all cases, such individuals either live appart from society (Jedi,Xmen) or they have secret identities (Spiderman) or they try to convince society that they are the good guys (Iron Man,Fantastic Four) by fighting threats from other like powered individuals and the odd alien.

 

Yes, I agree with all that, but I was referring to the possible solutions being limited by historical perspective.

 

Superheroes and Jedi have been mentioned before. They have a good record of saving people, not trying to imposer their power on others, upholding the law, etc. However, Thedas has a past of ruthless mage overlords and horrible magical accidents, so the solutions presented are different in each society.

[sassyJacen]

Part of me likes the chantry, but I can't help but feel that they are hiding something.

The chant of light is said to have been translated and rewriten over the centuries, some parts of it is never being shown to the public.

Like the canticles of shartan and Maferath....

Also: why is there no elven priests or templars? they want to spread the chant to all corners of the world and we saw a dwarven brother in orzammar, heck we could help him build a chantry down there.   (I did not!)

 

Only time will tell how the Inquisitor and the chantry will get along.

Personally: I want to hear the original chant... and maby have my mage-inquisitor showe a blade of mercy up the chantrys collective butt!!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Also: why is there no elven priests or templars? they want to spread the chant to all corners of the world and we saw a dwarven brother in orzammar, heck we could help him build a chantry down there.   (I did not!)

There are. In fact, the female Elf you save in Sebastian's Act 2 quest becomes a Sister and sends you a letter in Act 3.

And Evangeline in Asunder was almost written as an elf. 

[DKJaigen]

I like how you think that's the only reason they are given Lyrium and not because it is what gives the Templars their ability to stop Mages from using magic. 

 

No doubt there are hundreds if not thousands of people who still support the Templars, and with people support comes financial support. Plus they can always get Lyrium from Mage camps too. Speaking of, where will mages get their Lyrium? 

 

Exactly, they are no longer part of the Chantry. They are renegades. I don't blame a nation for the actions of renegade soldiers who broke away from them, so why should I do different here? 

 

They need their lyrium to have anti magical abilities but it also leaves them right open to outside corruption we have seen this in DA2 and orgins. And i must say the magnificent bastard who corrupted the templars did so expertly. He put the templars into a position where he knew their own stupidity and religious zeal would cause them to defect. One of the better batman gambits i say.

 

But if you believe the templars are some kind of knights in shining armor saving the world from mages then your likely be very disappointed . An addiction can be brutal and can completely change a person. Right now the red templars are actively supporting the demonic invasion.

 

And i doubt people will support the templars who have been denounced by the chantry , resort to looting and dont get me started when people find out they  use red lyrium.

 

And the chantry is responsible for setting up this corrupt system. Somebody knew the colossal weaknesses of the system and exploited it.

[AkiKishi]

Yes, I agree with all that, but I was referring to the possible solutions being limited by historical perspective.

 

Superheroes and Jedi have been mentioned before. They have a good record of saving people, not trying to imposer their power on others, upholding the law, etc. However, Thedas has a past of ruthless mage overlords and horrible magical accidents, so the solutions presented are different in each society.

 

My guess is there is going to be something so bad that the Mages and Templars have to join up to stop it. The population is largely uneducated so an edict from the chantry would work on most. Plenty of examples of that from papal decrees. 

[Captain_Harkness]

You won't support the Chantry because you've taken the word of a possessed mage with questionable mental stability as Gospel. You've made his view your own, and through those eyes alone do you see the world, no other. That would be like me seeing everything through Merediths idol influenced yes.

 

So, since you won't listen to anything I say, how about you listen to what your own hero has to say on the subject.

 

 

That's Anders, when he was sane, before a well meaning fusion sent him off the deep end.

 

He may not like Chantry oversight, and that's fine he' allowed to have a dissenting opinion. But having a dissenting opinion and working via peaceful means to change something is a far cry from blowing up a building and killing an old woman who was holding the Templars in check.

You might want to pay attention to what Wynne says there too bud. Wynne, one of the most pro chantry and peaceful mages we ever see outright says that if the Chantry doesn't trust them the Templars will try to kill them all. "the mages will never be free, the chantry would never allow it." "Our only hope for survival is to show them we can be trusted." "Do you want to give the Templar another excuse to call for the culling of all mages?" EVEN WYNNE DOESN'T TRUST THE CHANTRY NOT TO HAVE ALL MAGES KILLED OFF IF THEY MAKE TOO BIG A SCENE

[General TSAR]

This is the product of the Chantry.

 

Again why should I support the Chantry when they caused so much damage?

(Monotone voice) How can they be products of the Chantry if they have rebelled from the Chantry, this logic is incorrect. 

[MisterJB]

If the Chantry is not willing to send in the Templars if the mages decide something as drastic as "From now and until the end of time, the only ones responsible for assuring proper conduct by mages will be other mages" then they are not doing their job right.

[Mistic]

You might want to pay attention to what Wynne says there too bud. Wynne, one of the most pro chantry and peaceful mages we ever see outright says that if the Chantry doesn't trust them the Templars will try to kill them all. "the mages will never be free, the chantry would never allow it." "Our only hope for survival is to show them we can be trusted." "Do you want to give the Templar another excuse to call for the culling of all mages?" EVEN WYNNE DOESN'T TRUST THE CHANTRY NOT TO HAVE ALL MAGES KILLED OFF IF THEY MAKE TOO BIG A SCENE

 

Well, that's understandable. After all, Wynne wasn't a Loyalist, but an Aequitarian.

[zambingo]

Magic exists to serve Man, never to rule over him.

Magic is a tool to be used, tools don't control the user.

Be careful so you don't become a pawn of magic, be instead the master of it.

You wield magic, don't let magic wield you.

It's entirely plausible the Chantry/Circle were created to fulfill that directive; learn magic, study magic, master yourself.

The Harrowing is a perfect example of a test designed for a mastered mage to face.

Somewhere sometime it looks like this key message was flipped to subjugation instead of education.

This education interpretation seems much more in line with what was said to be Andraste's pr/teachings.

All other finger pointing is pointless and counter-productive to change.

[Mockingword]

If the Chantry is not willing to send in the Templars if the mages decide something as drastic as "From now and until the end of time, the only ones responsible for assuring proper conduct by mages will be other mages" then they are not doing their job right.

"If you don't outright slaughter people for wanting to govern themselves, you're doing it wrong."

[Beerfish]

Why do people fear mages so much? Who has the biggest influence over the people? The Chantry. The religion has became so dangerously powerful that their influences has been infused with some countries politics, like Kirkwall. A nobility must get an approval by the templars prior to becoming the new ruler, and that is wrong. Even  Knight-Commander Guylian had to remind the corrupted Divine (Divine Beatrix III) that it was not in his place nor the Templar's to get involved. He said exactly this in his letter:

 

"It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself."

 

The Chantry teaches people to fear mages and hate mages because they fear and hate the mages themselves. In the Circle they remind the mages that they're a curse. Some even want to die because the psychological abuse that they get is so overwhelming.

 

Just imagine a group of regular mundane like people, Like Mistress Selby, who had their children, or a brother, sister or even a parent that has magic talents being taken away from them by the Templar's to be carted off to the Circle. According to Anders they even humiliate them by putting shackles on them in front of their neighbors and friends.

 

Each time a Templar do something like to someone, they're creating a mage sympathizer so do the math.

Yeah it's the chantrys fault that people hate mages, certainly has nothing at all to do with the numerous Redcliffe like happenings where a mage gets possessed and a few hundred people get killed as a result.

[DKJaigen]

Yeah it's the chantrys fault that people hate mages, certainly has nothing at all to do with the numerous Redcliffe like happenings where a mage gets possessed and a few hundred people get killed as a result.

 

The chantry is indirectly responsible for that. if parents have no confidence in the circle taking care of their children then such things happen. 

[MisterJB]

"If you don't outright slaughter people for wanting to govern themselves, you're doing it wrong."

They already governed themselves. The Chantry participated in the process in order to ensure the needs of normal people were taken into account and that magic problems didn't harm the outside world such as, for instance, mages walking into villages and setting on fire to anyone who looks at them sideways like exactly what is happening now.

[Nohvarr]

You might want to pay attention to what Wynne says there too bud. Wynne, one of the most pro chantry and peaceful mages we ever see outright says that if the Chantry doesn't trust them the Templars will try to kill them all. "the mages will never be free, the chantry would never allow it." "Our only hope for survival is to show them we can be trusted." "Do you want to give the Templar another excuse to call for the culling of all mages?" EVEN WYNNE DOESN'T TRUST THE CHANTRY NOT TO HAVE ALL MAGES KILLED OFF IF THEY MAKE TOO BIG A SCENE

You do see the Chantry's problem, if mages pull away then there is NO oversight on them...you'd have the fox guarding the hen house. The Chantry, being intelligent, also knows that the Templars would never stand for that and would likely abandon them if they did nothing in taht situation, lo and behold the templars do abandon the Chantry to kill mages on their own when the Current divine tried to take away the ritual of Tranquility. So yeah, I'd say Wynn is just being pragmatic and the Chantry is showing more care than they strictly have too.

[MisterJB]

A quick correction, the Templars abandoned the Chantry when the Divine supported mage evasion, killing Templars in the process.

[Nohvarr]

A quick correction, the Templars abandoned the Chantry when the Divine supported mage evasion, killing Templars in the process.

I stand corrected.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The chantry is indirectly responsible for that. if parents have no confidence in the circle taking care of their children then such things happen. 

Um, no. In that scenario, the fault is on the parents, not the CIrcle or Chantry.