Um, no. In that scenario, the fault is on the parents, not the CIrcle or Chantry.
In real life, if an parent is afraid to send their child to an school in fear they might be beaten, raped and who knows what else, most people would fault the school for it. So yes, it is the Chantry fault.
In real life, if an parent is afraid to send their child to an school in fear they might be beaten, raped and who knows what else, most people would fault the school for it. So yes, it is the Chantry fault.
It's the Chantry's fault the parents are afraid to send the child to the Circle.
It is the parent's fault if that kid pulls off a Connor and kills a town.
So in your example the parents are afraid of sending their kid to school, so they home school them. The kid snaps and goes on a murdering spree. You still blame the school?
It's the Chantry's fault the parents are afraid to send the child to the Circle.
It is the parent's fault if that kid pulls off a Connor and kills a town.
So in your example the parents are afraid of sending their kid to school, so they home school them. The kid snaps and goes on a murdering spree. You still blame the school?
Yes, I do. If the school was an place of proper education and void of abuses, like it's supposed to be, the parents would have nothing to fear and would send their children to be educated, and thus avoid said disasters entirely. But because the school failed to do their job, this happens, and thus it's their fault.
(Monotone voice) The Mages are incapable of governing themselves without posing a major danger to non-mages and creating a magocracy, the Chantry and Templar Order must exist to keep them in check.
Well, honestly it's the best way any peasants are going to get an education, since it's either go to the tower and if you don't kill your entire town you have to work on the farm.
Because they ain't being home school in anything beyond how to plant and use a plow.
Yes, I do. If the school was an place of proper education and void of abuses, like it's supposed to be, the parents would have nothing to fear and would send their children to be educated, and thus avoid said disasters entirely. But because the school failed to do their job, this happens, and thus it's their fault.
That's like saying "I don't like my child's school teaching sex ed, so I'll home school them but blame the school if my child gets/makes someone pregnant."
And the abuses, which are far less than what people like Anders say, are carried out by Templars, not the Chantry. And those Templars are usually punished rather quickly. They weren't in Kirkwall because well, it's Kirkwall. The game was designed to show you the worst of both sides.
In real life, if an parent is afraid to send their child to an school in fear they might be beaten, raped and who knows what else, most people would fault the school for it. So yes, it is the Chantry fault.
Isolde was a deeply religious woman and she does never mention "fear of abuse". Rather, her chieftain concern was that Connor would be "taken away". And this given the fact that her wealth and political power would make it easy for her to make a three days trip and visit the boy.
It is more than obvious that Isolde was simply not willing to lose even a single day with Connor despite the potential he had for destruction and, surprise surprise, he ended up killing hundreds of people.
This one is entirely on Isolde and no one else.
Isolde was a deeply religious woman and she does never mention "fear of abuse". Rather, her chieftain concern was that Connor would be "taken away". And this given the fact that her wealth and political power would make it easy for her to make a three days trip and visit the boy.
It is more than obvious that Isolde was simply not willing to lose even a single day with Connor despite the potential he had for destruction and, surprise surprise, he ended up killing hundreds of people.
This one is entirely on Isolde and no one else.
That's true, but we also have other parents terrified of giving their mage child afraid they will never see them again or that the templars will commit unspeakable abuses once they go there. Take Rivain, as far as we know, no mage was afraid to go to the circle, in fact, it seems it was treated like an privilege. They were taught, had good living conditions and suffered no fear of abuse. And that's because Rivain people have an positive outlook on magic others nation lack, and while the chantry have any influence in these systems, I doubt the other nations will change for the better.
That's true, but we also have other parents terrified of giving their mage child afraid they will never see them again or that the templars will commit unspeakable abuses once they go there. Take Rivain, as far as we know, no mage was afraid to go to the circle, in fact, it seems it was treated like an privilege. They were taught, had good living conditions and suffered no fear of abuse. And that's because Rivain people have an positive outlook on magic others nation lack, and while the chantry have any influence in these systems, I doubt the other nations will change for the better.
And why exactly is it that Rivain has a positive outlook on magic? Because they are ruled by mages.
That's like saying Tevinter has a positive outlook on magic. Or the Dalish have a positive outlook on magic.
The groups that have positive outlooks on magic are all being ruled by mages and I don't think that's a coincidence.
And why exactly is it that Rivain has a positive outlook on magic? Because they are ruled by mages.
That's like saying Tevinter has a positive outlook on magic. Or the Dalish have a positive outlook on magic.
The groups that have positive outlooks on magic are all being ruled by mages and I don't think that's a coincidence.
And that's an assumption every group ruled by mages is instantly bad. Wich is untrue considered the Dalish keepers don't abuse their subjects. And for what we know, the Rivain mages didn't abuse their people neither.
And that's an assumption every group ruled by mages is instantly bad. Wich is untrue considered the Dalish keepers don't abuse their subjects. And for what we know, the Rivain mages didn't abuse their people neither.
I'm not passing judgement on that form of government.
I'm just pointing out the fact that all societies with a positive outlook on mages are all magocracies and that this is no coincidence. Evidently, it is in the best interests of mages to "teach" their subjects how good magic is. For instance, Rivain Seers spread the belief that Abominations are "natural disasters" rather than what they really are, failings of mages that can be prevented. If the peasants of Rivain believe that there is nothing that can be done to prevent an Abomination much like there is nothing that can be done to prevent a earthquake, they won't lash out against mages and demand accountability when they do become Abominations and slaugther hundreds of people
Also, Dalish Keepers don't abuse their subjects? Zathrian had to have some sense beaten into his head before he cured the lycantrophy affecting his clan; Marethari kept hers in proximity to a human metropolis for six years and the one in "Masked Empire" summoned one of the Forbidden Ones which got his entire clan killed.
They're not like the Magisters, I admit but I think one could make a reasonable argument that the Keeper system is hurting the Dalish People. Not that the Keepers would allow it...
I'm not passing judgement on that form of government.
I'm just pointing out the fact that all societies with a positive outlook on mages are all magocracies and that this is no coincidence. Evidently, it is in the best interests of mages to "teach" their subjects how good magic is. For instance, Rivain Seers spread the belief that Abominations are "natural disasters" rather than what they really are, failings of mages that can be prevented. If the peasants of Rivain believe that there is nothing that can be done to prevent an Abomination much like there is nothing that can be done to prevent a earthquake, they won't lash out against mages and demand accountability when they do become Abominations and slaugther hundreds of people
Also, Dalish Keepers don't abuse their subjects? Zathrian had to have some sense beaten into his head before he cured the lycantrophy affecting his clan; Marethari kept hers in proximity to a human metropolis for six years and the one in "Masked Empire" summoned one of the Forbidden Ones which got his entire clan killed.
They're not like the Magisters, I admit but I think one could make a reasonable argument that the Keeper system is hurting the Dalish People. Not that the Keepers would allow it...
The circle system is not too different of what you described about the Rivain abominations. The templars teach to the people what they do is necessary, and that their actions are thus justified when dealing with mages, it is "simply how things are". And if they act outside their comission and abuse an mage, nobody can lash out at them and hold them accountable for their misdeeds when mages are needlessly killed or abused.
You can't use use these keepers as examples since their actions are not exactly common place, their situations are pretty unique. It would be like saying that all Chantry priests are mad zealots like Petrice and all should be expected to do the same.
Also, Dalish Keepers don't abuse their subjects? Zathrian had to have some sense beaten into his head before he cured the lycantrophy affecting his clan; Marethari kept hers in proximity to a human metropolis for six years and the one in "Masked Empire" summoned one of the Forbidden Ones which got his entire clan killed.They're not like the Magisters, I admit but I think one could make a reasonable argument that the Keeper system is hurting the Dalish People. Not that the Keepers would allow it...
Since we don't know much about the Seers I can't say anything about them, but I beg to disagree about the Dalish Keepers.
-Zathrian. You had to beat sense into him to cure all the curse. His solution was to kill the Lady and use her to cure his people. A bastard? Yes. Abusing his people? No.
-Marethari. I suppose the Doylist explanation is that Bioware needed the clan there to end Merrill's plot, but the Watsonian explanation is that Marethari was stupid, yes.
-Thelhen. Funnily enough, he's the proof the Dalish are not a magocracy. He couldn't take any important decision without consulting the elders of the clan first. If that happened with Celene, there's little doubt the same happened with the decision to summon Imshael.
I'm not passing judgement on that form of government.
I'm just pointing out the fact that all societies with a positive outlook on mages are all magocracies and that this is no coincidence. Evidently, it is in the best interests of mages to "teach" their subjects how good magic is. For instance, Rivain Seers spread the belief that Abominations are "natural disasters" rather than what they really are, failings of mages that can be prevented. If the peasants of Rivain believe that there is nothing that can be done to prevent an Abomination much like there is nothing that can be done to prevent a earthquake, they won't lash out against mages and demand accountability when they do become Abominations and slaugther hundreds of people
Also, Dalish Keepers don't abuse their subjects? Zathrian had to have some sense beaten into his head before he cured the lycantrophy affecting his clan; Marethari kept hers in proximity to a human metropolis for six years and the one in "Masked Empire" summoned one of the Forbidden Ones which got his entire clan killed.
They're not like the Magisters, I admit but I think one could make a reasonable argument that the Keeper system is hurting the Dalish People. Not that the Keepers would allow it...
Putting some mages in authority is the smartest thing ou can do. Mundanes are both blind and deaf to magic. they dont understand it , they dont understand the problems and they cannot solve the problem. thats why the templar order got corrupted and mundanes die by the score the to demonic invasion.
Since we don't know much about the Seers I can't say anything about them, but I beg to disagree about the Dalish Keepers.
-Zathrian. You had to beat sense into him to cure all the curse. His solution was to kill the Lady and use her to cure his people. A bastard? Yes. Abusing his people? No.
Yes, because he could have slammed his staff into the ground at anytime and saved elves like the wife of that hunter that asks you for help.
-Thelhen. Funnily enough, he's the proof the Dalish are not a magocracy. He couldn't take any important decision without consulting the elders of the clan first. If that happened with Celene, there's little doubt the same happened with the decision to summon Imshael.
The fact that he didn't, does mean that he couldn't have.
Marethari clearly ignored the concerns of her clan's elders in her decision to remain near Kirkwall for so long; as evidence by how the Chief Crafter is leaving by Act 3. This proves that a Keeper could ignore the elders if s/he wishes.
But, on the other hand, we do not have an example of non-mages within the clan vetoing the Keeper's decisions.
Also, even if the elders could, it would be a magocracy, just not an authoritarian one. But the position of leader would still be reserved to mages.
Putting some mages in authority is the smartest thing ou can do. Mundanes are both blind and deaf to magic. they dont understand it , they dont understand the problems and they cannot solve the problem. thats why the templar order got corrupted and mundanes die by the score the to demonic invasion.
What a silly thing to say.
First of all, magic can be studied and understood by those bereft of it. See, Dagna. Or hell, us!
Second, do you think politicians have a deep understanding of medicine? And yet, there is not a number of seats in parliament that are reserved for doctors only. Or meteorologists, in case there is a tsunami. Or geophysicists, for earthquakes.
Why? Because these people can be called on by the government to assist and advise in case of a crisis related to their line of work. We don't need to give them positions of authority over the citizens to accomplish this.
Much like the Circle could be called upon.
What a silly thing to say.
First of all, magic can be studied and understood by those bereft of it. See, Dagna. Or hell, us!
Second, do you think politicians have a deep understanding of medicine? And yet, there is not a number of seats in parliament that are reserved for doctors only. Or meteorologists, in case there is a tsunami. Or geophysicists, for earthquakes.
Why? Because these people can be called on by the government to assist and advise in case of a crisis related to their line of work. We don't need to give them positions of authority over the citizens to accomplish this.
Much like the Circle could be called upon.
Knowing the theoretical doesn't mean you know the practical applications of magic. Mages can enter the fade or know when the veil is weak. And im not saying you put the mages on the highest level of power . But being a consultant is still grants power and influence. Perhaps their should be a department that focusses solely on magical matters.
The circle system is not too different of what you described about the Rivain abominations. The templars teach to the people what they do is necessary, and that their actions are thus justified when dealing with mages, it is "simply how things are". And if they act outside their comission and abuse an mage, nobody can lash out at them and hold them accountable for their misdeeds when mages are needlessly killed or abused.
The fact that Karras had to threaten Alain into not reporting his nightly "visits" suggests he feared punishment in which case, Templars are held accountable.
Still, it is true that the Chantry uses rhetoric to defend the current system much like Rivain or Tevinter do. But then, let us not forget this rather than claiming that Rivaini mages have, miraculously, discovered the perfect balance between normal and magical people.
You can't use use these keepers as examples since their actions are not exactly common place, their situations are pretty unique. It would be like saying that all Chantry priests are mad zealots like Petrice and all should be expected to do the same.
Well, the majority of the Keepers we've met have all screwed up in ways that could have, or did destroy their clans.
In fact, I think Vellana's Keeper was the only one who avoided it; and her clan was still divided.
Knowing the theoretical doesn't mean you know the practical applications of magic. Mages can enter the fade or know when the veil is weak. And im not saying you put the mages on the highest level of power . But being a consultant is still grants power and influence. Perhaps their should be a department that focusses solely on magical matters.
Like I said, that was the Circle before the mages went "We matter and **** everyone else."
How do your think Vivienne became a Court Mage? The Circle assigned her to advise Empress Celene in all matters magical.
Like I said, that was the Circle before the mages went "We matter and **** everyone else."
How do your think Vivienne became a Court Mage? The Circle assigned her to advise Empress Celene in all matters magical.
1 mage to furfill al the needs of the empire. is that a bit much? And where do you think the mages got the " we vs them" mentality? because the chantry did a hell of a job to give the mages no reason to either respect or appreciate the mundanes as they have national identity or feel any kinship with the mundanes. you can wipe out the mages for all i care in your play through. but stricter rules will not solve the problems, Mages have very little reason to accept the current circles let alone stricter ones.
1 mage to furfill al the needs of the empire. is that a bit much?
What makes you think she can't ask for help if need be?
Or that lords can't contact the Circle?
And where do you think the mages got the " we vs them" mentality? because the chantry did a hell of a job to give the mages no reason to either respect or appreciate the mundanes as they have national identity or feel any kinship with the mundanes.
Tevinter did a tremendous job fostering brotherhood between normal people and mages
What makes you think she can't ask for help if need be?
Or that lords can't contact the Circle?
Tevinter did a tremendous job fostering brotherhood between normal people and mages
So you say you should make the same mistake as the tevinter made? Is the chantry or the templars any better then the tevinters then?
And what i want to see is the circle integrating into society with healers and other magic stuff the mages can provide to make thedas a better place. in creates commitment and it creates loyalty.
So you say you should make the same mistake as the tevinter made?
We made no mistakes. The mages did and they'll be taught that come DAI.
Is the chantry or the templars any better then the tevinters then?
Yes, they never enslaved people or cut little boys open to entertain guests at parties.
And what i want to see is the circle integrating into society with healers and other magic stuff the mages can provide to make thedas a better place. in creates commitment and it creates loyalty.
No, it creates dependency, economical domination and finally New Tevinter.
Well well...this is an interesting debate.
Well well...this is an interesting debate.
Yes. I wonder what Andraste would make of it. 
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