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[MisterJB]

Andraste fought against the mages.

[Hellion Rex]

Andraste fought against the mages.

Tevinter mages. Not mages as a whole. And I'm still not convinced she wasn't a mage herself.

[MisterJB]

Tevinter mages. Not mages as a whole. And I'm still not convinced she wasn't a mage herself.

Because they were the most visible expression of the oppression of magic at the time. The sayings attributed to her always speak about magic in general.

She understood the dangers of magic and would have, undoubtedly, supported the Circles.

[Hellion Rex]

Because they were the most visible expression of the oppression of magic at the time. The sayings attributed to her always speak about magic in general.

She understood the dangers of magic and would have, undoubtedly, supported the Circles.

I have no doubt she would have supported the Circles. Perhaps not as they were during this current era, but I understand why she'd support the Circle system.

[Jaison1986]

Yes. I wonder what Andraste would make of it. 

 

So I just ended an age of evil and bigotry just to cause another one? Sweet maker, I should have stayed home...

[drake heath]

The mages were bourgeoisie oppressors.

[MisterJB]

So I just ended an age of evil and bigotry just to cause another one? Sweet maker, I should have stayed home...

"I'm talking about the way the elves are treated, of course. Good job with the mages, tough. Love what you're doing."

[Jaison1986]

"I'm talking about the way the elves are treated, of course. Good job with the mages, tough. Love what you're doing."

 

"Yeah! Who cares about minorities anyway? Mundanes safety coming from the death and misery of others is the way to go baby!"

[MisterJB]

"Yeah! Who cares about minorities anyway? Mundanes safety coming from the death and misery of others is the way to go baby!"

I think normal people are at a far greater risk of dying from petty much everything that is not a Templar or a demon than the mages are.

Disease? Mages live under better conditions and have healing magic.

Cold? Same as above.

Starvation? A bad harvest could lead to normal families starving. Meanwhile, the mages have everything provided for them.

Bandits, war, darkspawn? Who do you think dies from those? Farmers living in the camp, away from cities or mages in a fortified tower, surrounded by Templars?

 

The people of Thedas know more about death and the misery than the mages ever will. And now they know even more because the mages, these brave freedom figthers, are setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways.

[Jaison1986]

I think normal people are at a far greater risk of dying from petty much everything that is not a Templar or a demon than the mages are.

Disease? Mages live under better conditions and have healing magic.

Cold? Same as above.

Starvation? A bad harvest could lead to normal families starving. Meanwhile, the mages have everything provided for them.

Bandits, war, darkspawn? Who do you think dies from those? Farmers living in the camp, away from cities or mages in a fortified tower, surrounded by Templars?

 

The people of Thedas know more about death and the misery than the mages ever will. And now they know even more because the mages, these brave freedom figthers, are setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways.

 

All the while the noble red templars cleanse everything with their holy flame. Why should the mages complain right? A little rape never hurted anyone. What does your dignity matters as an human being right? Or an beating perhaps? But nothing tops being lobotomized. The mundanes don't know what they are missing. So long as it doesn't happen to an mundane, it's all that matters, right?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All the while the noble red templars cleanse everything with their holy flame. Why should the mages complain right? A little rape never hurted anyone. What does your dignity matters as an human being right? Or an beating perhaps? But nothing tops being lobotomized. The mundanes don't know what they are missing. So long as it doesn't happen to an mundane, it's all that matters, right?

You act like the civilian population doesn't experience those things. The City Elf origin alone has you experience all of that minus being made Tranquil, which is the mages' choice in every Circle minus Kirkwall by the way. 

[MisterJB]

All the while the noble red templars cleanse everything with their holy flame. Why should the mages complain right? A little rape never hurted anyone. What does your dignity matters as an human being right? Or an beating perhaps? But nothing tops being lobotomized. The mundanes don't know what they are missing. So long as it doesn't happen to an mundane, it's all that matters, right?

And if the mages hadn't pulled away, the Chantry would still be controlling the Templars and they wouldn't have acess to Red Lyrium.

Do you think no one was ever raped or beaten by a City Guardsman or a Lord?

Maybe the lives of Thedosians are hard enough without adding people who can set them on fire with a thought to midst just because they can't tolerate having some restrictions to their freedoms.

[Jaison1986]

And if the mages hadn't pulled away, the Chantry would still be controlling the Templars and they wouldn't have acess to Red Lyrium.

Do you think no one was ever raped or beaten by a City Guardsman or a Lord?

Maybe the lives of Thedosians are hard enough without adding people who can set them on fire with a thought to midst just because they can't tolerate having some restrictions to their freedoms.

 

And maybe the life of the mages are hard enough without adding bigoted mundanes having life and death powers over them just because they can't tolerate that some people are different then them. This is so stupid, all of this could be avoided if a bunch of self righteous priests weren't given all the power and authority they had.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Even if she wouldn't have approved of the Circles, things are much better now because of her Exalted March than they were in the days when the Imperium ruled most of Thedas. That's enough for her to have known not to have "stayed home".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And maybe the life of the mages are hard enough without adding bigoted mundanes having life and death powers over them just because they can't tolerate that some people are different then them. This is so stupid, all of this could be avoided if a bunch of self righteous priests weren't given all the power and authority they had.  

You realize the alternative was the mages being ripped apart by angry mobs and groups like the first Inquisition, yes? The mages of old chose the Circle system. They created it. 

 

And you mean mean the 'self-righteous priests' like Grand Cleric Elthina who was the only person stopping Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment? Or Divine Justinia who searched for a cure to Tranquilization and stopped Lambert from killing all the mages? 

[Jaison1986]

You realize the alternative was the mages being ripped apart by angry mobs and groups like the first Inquisition, yes? The mages of old chose the Circle system. They created it. 

 

And you mean mean the 'self-righteous priests' like Grand Cleric Elthina who was the only person stopping Meredith from enacting the Right of Annulment? Or Divine Justinia who searched for a cure to Tranquilization and stopped Lambert from killing all the mages? 

 

You mean the same grand cleric that stood completely idle while Meredith commited dozens of abuses to mages and mage sympathizers? And naively expecting all the problems to go away their own? Don't remind me. And of course, Divine Justina, the same person that pondered two exalted marches over Orzammar for making an independant circle and over the death of an single priest. She is the incarnation of resonable. 

 

Or maybe the alternative could be circle without templars, no paranoia, no opression, were mages don't fear they will wake up dead the next day. But of course, if they don't have someone to push them around their day won't be complete.

[Grieving Natashina]

...I thought this was supposed to be about the PC being able to support or denounce the Chantry, not another debate about the Chantry itself.  I hope for both choices, because depending upon the character my beliefs changes.  For instance, I'd consider my CE Warden more agnostic; she doesn't believe in the Chantry nor in the Dalish pantheon, merely in a higher power that mortals (or demons/spirits) cannot comprehend.  The Ashes merely provoked questions in her, but didn't spark any great faith.  

 

My Human Noble on the other hand was very devout to the Maker after seeing the Sacred Ashes and would have taken every option to support the Chantry.  I do want to say that supporting the Chantry as the Inquisitor is not the same as condoning everything the church does.  For instance, my second Inquisitor (my first is will be a surface dwarf that has the beliefs of her ancestors) could very well be devout in her faith in the Maker, but wouldn't condone acts like most of Lambert's behavior in Asunder or templars like Alrik.  More than just being able to support or denounce the Chantry, I hope we can have a middle ground that allows the player some room to express concern about corruption.

 

Despite my feelings about the Circle, I wish some posters would stop thinking that pro-Chantry means anti-Mage.   This is coming from someone that isn't a big fan of the amount of influence the Chantry has and plays Wardens/Hawkes of varying religious beliefs.

 

Finally, I think whether or not Andraste would have supported the Circles is a moot point after Asunder.  They kind of don't exist anymore, unless the player either helps influence events that could lead to the Circles rebuliding or being disrupted for good.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You mean the same grand cleric that stood completely idle while Meredith commited dozens of abuses to mages and mage sympathizers? And naively expecting all the problems to go away their own? Don't remind me. And of course, Divine Justina, the same person that pondered two exalted marches over Orzammar for making an independant circle and over the death of an single priest. She is the incarnation of resonable. 

 

Or maybe the alternative could be circle without templars, no paranoia, no opression, were mages don't fear they will wake up dead the next day. But of course, if they don't have someone to push them around their day won't be complete.

It is not her role to interfere with Circle affairs besides grant clearance for RoAs. Things like Templar abuses are the Seekers responsibility, and with them being led by a former Tevinter Templar of course he wouldn't interfere since he has spent decades seeing what happens when regulations on mages are lax. And she expected that Orsino and Meredith would try discussing things, stepping in when they got too heated, so no she wasn't just hoping things would disappear on their own. 

 

Um, Justinia wasn't the Divine at the time of Origins, which was 9:30-31. That was Beatrix. Justinia became Divine in 9:34. And in the Orzammar case yes, people killing your followers would have you think about attacking back. That's like expecting America to go "whatever" after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. 

 

So you think the Mages should have sole authority over themselves. The Chantry in Tevinter tried that, and look how it turned out. Not saying the same would happen, but when the first time it did something like that happens you're going to be hesitant before trying again. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

...I thought this was supposed to be about the PC being able to support or denounce the Chantry, not another debate about the Chantry itself.  I hope for both choices, because depending upon the character my beliefs changes.  For instance, I'd consider my CE Warden more agnostic; she doesn't believe in the Chantry nor in the Dalish pantheon, merely in a higher power that mortals (or demons/spirits) cannot comprehend.  The Ashes merely provoked questions in her, but didn't spark any great faith.  

It was. Then Lord Raijin showed up.

 

But yeah, this is a Chantry thread, not a Templar thread. All the complaints are about the Templars.

[Al Foley]

...I thought this was supposed to be about the PC being able to support or denounce the Chantry, not another debate about the Chantry itself.  I hope for both choices, because depending upon the character my beliefs changes.  For instance, I'd consider my CE Warden more agnostic; she doesn't believe in the Chantry nor in the Dalish pantheon, merely in a higher power that mortals (or demons/spirits) cannot comprehend.  The Ashes merely provoked questions in her, but didn't spark any great faith.  

 

My Human Noble on the other hand was very devout to the Maker after seeing the Sacred Ashes and would have taken every option to support the Chantry.  I do want to say that supporting the Chantry as the Inquisitor is not the same as condoning everything the church does.  For instance, my second Inquisitor (my first is will be a surface dwarf that has the beliefs of her ancestors) could very well be devout in her faith in the Maker, but wouldn't condone acts like most of Lambert's behavior in Asunder or templars like Alrik.  More than just being able to support or denounce the Chantry, I hope we can have a middle ground that allows the player some room to express concern about corruption.

 

Despite my feelings about the Circle, I wish some posters would stop thinking that pro-Chantry means anti-Mage.   This is coming from someone that isn't a big fan of the amount of influence the Chantry has and plays Wardens/Hawkes of varying religious beliefs.

 

Finally, I think whether or not Andraste would have supported the Circles is a moot point after Asunder.  They kind of don't exist anymore, unless the player either helps influence events that could lead to the Circles rebuliding or being disrupted for good.  

I am both very pro Chantry and very pro Mage.  I do not want to pick sides in this debate and think both sides have a lot of good points, and I will support them both.  Just as long as one does not try and completly enslave the other. 

[MisterJB]

Or maybe the alternative could be circle without templars, no paranoia, no opression, were mages don't fear they will wake up dead the next day. But of course, if they don't have someone to push them around their day won't be complete.

Could we please, please, keep the hyperbole's to a minimum? The mages of Ferelden's Circle in "Witch Hunt" were more worried about who the Hero of Ferelden was sleeping with than were they'd "wake up dead the next day".

There are ways of making plausible arguments against the Circle system without resorting to ridiculous assertions like that all Templars are just looking for opportunities to kill mages or that the Chantry would just lightly allow the wasting of some of the most precious natural resources on Thedas.

 

And you can't have the Circle without the Templars. You need trained non-mages watching the Circle or there is no way guarantee it will take the safety of the people into account and even if you were to fire every Templar today and train an entire new force and call them something, they'll still behave like the Templars of yore because you'll be recruiting from the same pool of candidates.

 

And if you try to "re-educate" the Templars, then you're now the one guilty of spreading propaganda.

[Jaison1986]

There is aways that saying "We don't know untill we try". And I certanly will try to do as much as I'm able. People are just too afraid to try new things. They only assume things will go bad if the mages try to do things differently. They never wait to see if it actually will.

[MisterJB]

There is aways that saying "We don't know untill we try". And I certanly will try to do as much as I'm able. People are just too afraid to try new things. They only assume things will go bad if the mages try to do things differently. They never wait to see if it actually will.

Now, I think that's a fair point. I mean we don't know what will happen if mages are suddenly free from Templars oversight; unlike the Tevinters, these mages were actually taught to not abuse their powers. Maybe we should give them a chance.

 

"Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways"

http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

Well, that didn't ****** work. Back to the Circles, everyone!

[Grieving Natashina]

The Chantry is a lot more than just polices on mages and elves though...

 

@MisterJB To be fair, the events at the Hinterlands could make a good case for locking up all templars too.   An extremely desperate situation like this isn't the right time to judge the behavior of either group.  I personally think it is worth giving a mages a shot, but when demons are raining from a rip in the fabric of Reality, not many of those in the majority of either Templars or mages are going to be at their best.

 

 I'm not excusing either the apostates' behavior nor the Red Templars, but, like with Kirkwall, that probably is not a good example to use due to both groups been shown at their most extreme on purpose.

[Al Foley]

Now, I think that's a fair point. I mean we don't know what will happen if mages are suddenly free from Templars oversight; unlike the Tevinters, these mages were actually taught to not abuse their powers. Maybe we should give them a chance.

 

"Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways"

http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

Well, that didn't ****** work. Back to the Circles, everyone!

...In the even you are being serious. 

 

Not all apostates may be involved in the events in the Hinterlands.  We do not know that, and it would be absurd to think they would be.  Add onto that desperate people tend to, sadly, do desperate things.  And these apostates are still being hunted down, by forces if you will note, who also massacre innocent villagers in their homes on the assumption that they are hiding said apostates. 

 

If you are joking, ignore me.