532 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is aways that saying "We don't know untill we try". And I certanly will try to do as much as I'm able. People are just too afraid to try new things. They only assume things will go bad if the mages try to do things differently. They never wait to see if it actually will.

Oh, I definitely think the new Circle system should be more lax. I just think there needs to be some oversight. We all have some oversight, they're called laws. I'm just saying that I can understand why they are hesitant since in all tries prior the results ended badly. 

[Lord Raijin]

I'd say Tevinter is the biggest cause of people to fear magic. The people of Thedas hear of the atrocities the magisters of today cause, as well as know what the magisters of the past did(and I'm not even referring to Cory and the gang who created the Blights). 

 

You have to admit that magic is a double-edged sword. You are gifted with great power, but are cursed to the possibility of demonic possession whenever you take so much as a cat nap. 

 

"According to Anders" makes me immediately dismiss any claims that follow. He is a known liar and will say anything to win sympathy. Wynne says the Templars who came for her were some of the nicest people she had been exposed to in her life, the first to treat her as a person since she developed her talents. 

 

And likewise, every time an apostate or malificarum does something to someone, they make a Templar supporter. 

 

 Magic is a double-edged sword and it takes a great deal of responsibility to wield it. It is not a toy. That is why I'm a staunch supporter of the circle system. The Circle should be used strictly for education, and not to be used as a prison.  Mages who can't seem to behave themselves goes to prisons like Aeonar. A mage is either executed, be made tranquil (Under certain circumstances I'm in favor of the practice) or serve time depending on the crimes that they're accused of doing. The lesser crime a mage gets re-educated in using magic to serve man.

 

When did Anders lie? I don't consider Anders lying when he didn't come up front and tell you that hes planning on blowing up the Chantry.

 

Can Wynne still say that the Templar's are nice? After taking away her newborn baby boy? She wasn't able to fight back because she was too exhausted to do anything about it. They deprived her the emotion of being able to bond with her first child, which is the most important part of a woman during motherhood.

[Chari]

In many prisons and asylums children are taken away from mothers if it is decided that they can't take care of children due to their criminal past or mental health problems
Mages aren't allowed to have children because they are dangerous to both them and others

You may cry about "oppressed minority" all you want but this is not the same thing as racism or sexism: neither women, nor racial minorities can murder people with a single thought or turn into murderous unbeatable monsters. Mages can
Even Gaider says that people often underestimate dangers of magic in Thedas. They do

[Grieving Natashina]

 Magic is a double-edged sword and it takes a great deal of responsibility to wield it. It is not a toy. That is why I'm a staunch supporter of the circle system. The Circle should be used strictly for education, and not to be used as a prison.  Mages who can't seem to behave themselves goes to prisons like Aeonar. A mage is either executed, be made tranquil (Under certain circumstances I'm in favor of the practice) or serve time depending on the crimes that they're accused of doing. The lesser crime a mage gets re-educated in using magic to serve man.

 

When did Anders lie? I don't consider Anders lying when he didn't come up front and tell you that hes planning on blowing up the Chantry.

 

Can Wynne still say that the Templar's are nice? After taking away her newborn baby boy? She wasn't able to fight back because she was too exhausted to do anything about it. They deprived her the emotion of being able to bond with her first child, which is the most important part of a woman during motherhood.

 

The first part I agree with you on.

 

When it comes to Anders, that could reasonably be called lying by omission.  I'm not going to debate about whether or not he was right in his actions, just trying to state a perspective.

 

Wynne does say nice things about the templars, by the way.  In Origins, she talks about the one that let her ride on his shoulders when they were taking her to the Circle when she was a child.  How kind they were to her, a scared mage child that had been treated very poorly prior to the Templars showing up.

 

Also, in case you forgot, in Asunder..

 

Spoiler

She chooses to give up the Spirit of Faith inside her to save the life of a templar.  The act kills her in the process.  Again, she died for a templar she believed in.

 

I'm against many of the Chantry's polices on magic, like you are.  I'm also against Templar abuse.  However, I believe that both mages and templars have a greater responsible to control themselves.  They both have power (mages from the Fade, templars more through society) that can be abused and both sides get very very ugly when they abuse that power.   I have a feeling that in Inquisition, we're going to see examples of Red Templars every bit as cruel, controlling and dark as the Tevinter magisters we've encountered in the games.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

When did Anders lie? I don't consider Anders lying when he didn't come up front and tell you that hes planning on blowing up the Chantry.

 

That is the literal the definition of lying. He told you he was doing something other than what he was actually doing.

[The Elder King]

Yeah, I don't get how saying to you that you have to gather resources to help him separate from J/V, when in reality he was building a bomb with those materials, isnt lying.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The first part I agree with you on.

 

When it comes to Anders, that could reasonably be called lying by omission.  I'm not going to debate about whether or not he was right in his actions, just trying to state a perspective.

 

Wynne does say nice things about the templars, by the way.  In Origins, she talks about the one that let her ride on his shoulders when they were taking her to the Circle when she was a child.  How kind they were to her, a scared mage child that had been treated very poorly prior to the Templars showing up.

 

Also, in case you forgot, in Asunder..

 

Spoiler

She chooses to give up the Spirit of Faith inside her to save the life of a templar.  The act kills her in the process.  Again, she died for a templar she believed in.

 

I'm against many of the Chantry's polices on magic, like you are.  I'm also against Templar abuse.  However, I believe that both mages and templars have a greater responsible to control themselves.  They both have power (mages from the Fade, templars more through society) that can be abused and both sides get very very ugly when they abuse that power.   I have a feeling that in Inquisition, we're going to see examples of Red Templars every bit as cruel, controlling and dark as the Tevinter magisters we've encountered in the games.

Well said. 

 

And like I said earlier, either here or in another thread, I'm glad that Bioware seems to want to show the human side of both factions, rather than just a cardboard cutout of how they can be at their worst(though that will still exist in new factions such as the Red Templars and Blood Mages).

[DKJaigen]

In many prisons and asylums children are taken away from mothers if it is decided that they can't take care of children due to their criminal past or mental health problems
Mages aren't allowed to have children because they are dangerous to both them and others

You may cry about "oppressed minority" all you want but this is not the same thing as racism or sexism: neither women, nor racial minorities can murder people with a single thought or turn into murderous unbeatable monsters. Mages can
Even Gaider says that people often underestimate dangers of magic in Thedas. They do

 

Really? Hawke's father did an excellent job . The tevinters build a mage dynasties in tevinters.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really? Hawke's father did an excellent job . The tevinters build a mage dynasties in tevinters.

Tevinter is never a good example when arguing for mages having more freedoms. 

[Chari]

Really? Hawke's father did an excellent job . The tevinters build a mage dynasties in tevinters.

It was stated that if Malcolm felt that his children were at danger of becoming possessed, he would send them to the Circle for their own safety

Yeah, dynasties of blood mages and slavers, for only those who are ready for drastic measures to gain power can ever hope to marry a powerful wealthy and noble mage. If one prefers fair methods, the one will be at the bottom of society

[DKJaigen]

Tevinter is never a good example when arguing for mages having more freedoms. 

 

You are starting to do this http://tvtropes.org/.../HitlerAteSugar . Its rather annoying. Yes the tevinters are a bunch of aholes but they did alos a lot of things right. learn from their strengths and avoid the their weaknesses .

[Grieving Natashina]

That is the literal the definition of lying. He told you he was doing something other than what he was actually doing.

Agreed. During that whole conversation, you can push him enough to where he admits that he's lying about the potion even before Hawke does the quest.  Afterward, he flat out admits that "I lied.  There is no potion."

[Chari]

You are starting to do this http://tvtropes.org/.../HitlerAteSugar . Its rather annoying. Yes the tevinters are a bunch of aholes but they did alos a lot of things right. learn from their strengths and avoid the their weaknesses .

Slavery is still in power and the system is corrupted to the core and you use it as an example of pro mage society
How lovely

[Lord Raijin]

The first part I agree with you on.

 

When it comes to Anders, that could reasonably be called lying by omission.  I'm not going to debate about whether or not he was right in his actions, just trying to state a perspective.

 

Wynne does say nice things about the templars, by the way.  In Origins, she talks about the one that let her ride on his shoulders when they were taking her to the Circle when she was a child.  How kind they were to her, a scared mage child that had been treated very poorly prior to the Templars showing up.

 

Also, in case you forgot, in Asunder..

 

Spoiler

She chooses to give up the Spirit of Faith inside her to save the life of a templar.  The act kills her in the process.  Again, she died for a templar she believed in.

 

I'm against many of the Chantry's polices on magic, like you are.  I'm also against Templar abuse.  However, I believe that both mages and templars have a greater responsible to control themselves.  They both have power (mages from the Fade, templars more through society) that can be abused and both sides get very very ugly when they abuse that power.   I have a feeling that in Inquisition, we're going to see examples of Red Templars every bit as cruel, controlling and dark as the Tevinter magisters we've encountered in the games.

 

As for Asunder

Spoiler

She wouldn't had never did what she did had she known what that Templar did to her son. She only knew that her son started having feelings for her at the very end, and wanted to give her son the ultimate gift by giving the Templar that he loved a second chance of life thus costing her own life. Evangeline was a terrible person that didn't deserve to be brought back to life.The stuffs that she did to Rhys was outrageous. The Circle life caused Rhys to make poor relationship decisions. Abuse seems to be an acceptable practice in the circle, and people seem to think that it's OK.

 

Templar's can serve a legit purpose in society if they weren't as corrupted. Look at the Templar's from the Ferelden circle. I consider that a healthy environment where the first enchanter and the Knight-Commander seems to have a respectful relationship with each other.

 

Don't get me wrong. I know I push myself to be this staunch Mage supporter, but I actually support the Templars who have the mind mentality like Emeric.

[The Elder King]

So I find a point in common between MisterJB and LordRaijin .
Asunder spoiler

Spoiler

They both don't like Evangeline

Pro-mages and pro-templars might agree on something!

[AkiKishi]

 

Templar's can serve a legit purpose in society if they weren't as corrupted. Look at the Templar's from the Ferelden circle. I consider that a healthy environment where the first enchanter and the Knight-Commander seems to have a respectful relationship with each other.

 

 

 

Most people would avoid getting friendly with people they may have to kill at a moments notice. In modern society the situation of the mages would be cruel and unusual punishment. 

[DKJaigen]

Slavery is still in power and the system is corrupted to the core and you use it as an example of pro mage society
How lovely

 

Both systems are corrupts and amoral. but to be honest the system the tevinters use is superior. After all the chantry's system has completely collapsed on itself and thedas faces is greatest danger since the first blight. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You are starting to do this http://tvtropes.org/.../HitlerAteSugar . Its rather annoying. Yes the tevinters are a bunch of aholes but they did alos a lot of things right. learn from their strengths and avoid the their weaknesses .

Please list all the things Tevinter did right. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Then subject him to a 'test' designed to break his mind and cause possession, prevent him from having any kind of family life, and turn that tower into a (admittedly nice) prison for life, in which he faces the sword of Damocles every day, his entire circle may get killed, or he may be lobotomised at the whim of religious fanatics.  But if that is fair treatment then every Sister should face the same, forced possession then being made tranquil.

 

Oh and the reason he is about to be lynched?  The Chantries anti-mage propaganda being forced fed to everyone from birth.

 

- bollcoks, there are no test to "break the mind". Mages recieve the best training one can give them.

- calling all templars religious fantaics is false

- the Sword of Damocles is justifed. 1000000000000000000000000%

 

- people fear mages because they are mages. Not because the Chantry told them to.

 

 

*******

 

and seriously, why does everyone and their dog always want to alter everything?

Is no one satisfied just experiencing the DA world and living in it?

Everyone wants to lead reforms, revolutions and re-shape the world in their image.

The God-complex is strong.
 

[Grieving Natashina]

Please list all the things Tevinter did right. 

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.  

[Mistic]

Both systems are corrupts and amoral. but to be honest the system the tevinters use is superior. After all the chantry's system has completely collapsed on itself and thedas faces is greatest danger since the first blight. 

 

I suppose that you mean superior only in endurance, don't you? Because there are many kinds of superior and moral superiority is certainly not in Tevinter.

 

Also, don't assume things before time. Tevinter's system already collapsed once, the Blight+Andraste crysis, and only survived thanks to Archon Hessarian's deep reforms. However, the Imperium is going back to their old ways little by little, and they can face collapse again, especially since their slavery system provides supporters to the Qunari invaders. If Dramatic Hands Moustache Guy is indeed the rumoured Tevinter magister, we'll have a new outlook at it.

 

Slavery is still in power and the system is corrupted to the core and you use it as an example of pro mage society
How lovely

 

Sorry, but in this I have to give the reason to DKJaigen. You said that the Circles taking the mages' children would be akin to prisons are assylums, where mothers don't keep their children "if it is decided that they can't take care of children due to their criminal past or mental health problems", and that mages "aren't allowed to have children because they are dangerous to both them and others".

 

However, DKJaigen pointed out that Malcom Hawke had a good mage family and that Tevinter has seen long family lines for centuries. So mages can take care of their children. If in Tevinter they teach them horrible values is another thing entirely. Normal people can teach their children horrible values too, but they are not deemed a danger to them and thus nobody takes their children.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for Asunder

Spoiler

She wouldn't had never did what she did had she known what that Templar did to her son. She only knew that her son started having feelings for her at the very end, and wanted to give her son the ultimate gift by giving the Templar that he loved a second chance of life thus costing her own life. Evangeline was a terrible person that didn't deserve to be brought back to life.The stuffs that she did to Rhys was outrageous. The Circle life caused Rhys to make poor relationship decisions. Abuse seems to be an acceptable practice in the circle, and people seem to think that it's OK.

 

Templar's can serve a legit purpose in society if they weren't as corrupted. Look at the Templar's from the Ferelden circle. I consider that a healthy environment where the first enchanter and the Knight-Commander seems to have a respectful relationship with each other.

 

Don't get me wrong. I know I push myself to be this staunch Mage supporter, but I actually support the Templars who have the mind mentality like Emeric.

Out of curiosity, what did Evangeline do that was so bad in your opinion? 

 

Most Templars are like those in Ferelden, not the ones in Kirkwall. Kirkwall was designed to show us the worst of both sides remember. Even then there were really only a few bad Templars in Kirkwall. 

[DKJaigen]

Please list all the things Tevinter did right. 

 

Oh where to start?

 

Lets start with the fact the tevinters managed to usurp the power of the regional elven superpower transforming the humans from a bunch of backward savages to a legitimate society.   Then they created an empire uniting or conquering all other human nations and maintaining it showing a talent for governance and administration  not seen in any other nation in thedas.

 

Having magical knowledge far beyond what is seen today.

 

Also advancing the technology and architecture as displayed by ostagar and the imperial highway.

 

While they maybe responsible they did manage to pull humanity through the blight that lasted a century then managed to fight andraste's barbarian horde to a standstill all the while suffering a deep religious crisis and internal conflict.  

 

And they still stand as a bulwark of stability while the rest of thedas has fallen into chaos. Not one chantry nation can even lay claim to a fraction of the accomplishments of tevinter and if it wasnt for the blight they would still be the dominant or perhaps even the only power in thedas.

 

Yes they are aholes but they are aholes that get **** done. copy what they did successfully and integrate in your own system.

[Jaison1986]

Even I have to agree that Evangeline wasn't bad. She starts out as an douche, but she becomes much more understanding of the mages as the story progresses. So much that by the end of the novel she realizes that doing what is right is not the same as doing her duty.

[9TailsFox]

Please list all the things Tevinter did right. 

 

Protecting Thedas from Qunari, still doing it.

Have friendly ties with dwarfs.

 

Do something no mater how huge and no one cares do something bad and all start pointing fingers.

 

Same question can be asked about all country's. What good Orlais did?

Enslaved mages.

Killed elf's just because they are different.(Exalted marches) (All country's treat elf's like ****.)

Concurred Ferelden.

Do I even need start about Orlais politics.