So I find a point in common between MisterJB and LordRaijin
.
Asunder spoiler
Spoiler
Pro-mages and pro-templars might agree on something!
No way! MisterJB and I have something in common? I didn't know that! I was too busy fighting him over the mage/templar issue that I seem to have forgotten what he said about that particular Templar.
Out of curiosity, what did Evangeline do that was so bad in your opinion?
Most Templars are like those in Ferelden, not the ones in Kirkwall. Kirkwall was designed to show us the worst of both sides remember. Even then there were really only a few bad Templars in Kirkwall.
This is what Evangeline did 
Let me remind you that it's been a while since I've read Asunder so what I write might be rusty or invalid. Anyone who can correct me to please use page # as a reference so I can reread it without reading the entire book.
Don't get me wrong. I know I push myself to be this staunch Mage supporter, but I actually support the Templars who have the mind mentality like Emeric.
So why do you find it so difficult to support the Chantry in the same manner when you have examples of them showing mages respect and trying to ride herd on the worst of their Templars? You acknowledge that some Templars are in fact trying to help you figure the Chantry has no hand in that either? It doesn't occur to you that seeing someone like Justina encouraging people to treat mages with honor and respect might not be a factor?
Even in Dragon age Inquisition, it's been noted that it's the Chantry (Not the Templars) that came together with the mages at the Temple of the sacred ashes for a peace conference.
You want to know why Elthina, Justine and the Chantry as a whole has to be careful HOW they handle the Templars? Why they can't just tell them to do whatever they want? Why they need the Mages to prove they can be trusted before being able to loosen restrictions? Because the Templar's true loyalty isn't to the Chantry, it's to their interpretation of the Maker's will.
Let's take a look at Sister Petrice since you do so love to bring her up. She honestly believed the Qun was a threat to the Maker, and that those who followed the Qun could be killed in the Makers name. So she goes around the Grand Cleric's back and attempts to engineer a situation that will lead to open war. Thankfully Hawke can bring the truth to light, and the Grand Cleric will immediately revoke Petrice's protection and hand her over to the authorities. The Templars have a similar relationship to the Chantry. Some of them will only follow the Chantry so long as they believe the Chantry is following the Makers will or doing the right and sensible thing. And before you go blaming the Chantry for teaching them to hate Mages, Lambert, the one who lead the charge to abandon the covenant was from the Imperial Chantry and believed that Mages could govern themselves....until his former friend and Mage proved differently.
If you've ever seen Deep Space 9, you'll recognize the relationship between the Maker, the Chantry and the Templars. It's not too dissimilar to that between the Changelings, Vorta, and Jem'Hadar. Both the Vorta and the Jem'hadar revere the Changelings as gods and are doing their best to serve them, but both sides disagree about the best ways to do that. Basically the Dominion is the evil totalitarian version of what you see in Dragon Age.
Anyways, the point is the Chantry has good people trying to help others, not just the mages, but the elves and other downtrodden as well. Most people still appear to look upon the Chantry with favor which makes them an excellent avenue for promoting change.
Which reminds me, I now know why *YOU* should support the Chantry. Since the Chantry's heads have likely been killed in the same explosion that killed your mage leaders, supporting the Chantry might allow you to influence the message. This is your chance to affect wider Change, to use the Chantry to promote your own view of how mages should be treated. Afterall, the Chantry was already leaning towards treating mages with respect, that's why the Templars left, so now you have the chance to keep that up, and encourage all of Thedas to treat mages as you want them to be treated.
Protecting Thedas from Qunari, still doing it.
Have friendly ties with dwarfs.
It's questionable whether they're worse than Tevinter or bad at all. Plus all other nations are currently at peace with qunari, they won't attack for years until truly prepared
Who doesn't?
Both systems are corrupts and amoral. but to be honest the system the tevinters use is superior. After all the chantry's system has completely collapsed on itself and thedas faces is greatest danger since the first blight.
Er, really? Corrupted slavery is better than corrupted non-slavery? So much superiority...
Sorry, but in this I have to give the reason to DKJaigen. You said that the Circles taking the mages' children would be akin to prisons are assylums, where mothers don't keep their children "if it is decided that they can't take care of children due to their criminal past or mental health problems", and that mages "aren't allowed to have children because they are dangerous to both them and others".
However, DKJaigen pointed out that Malcom Hawke had a good mage family and that Tevinter has seen long family lines for centuries. So mages can take care of their children. If in Tevinter they teach them horrible values is another thing entirely. Normal people can teach their children horrible values too, but they are not deemed a danger to them and thus nobody takes their children.
Eh, no.
Malcolm Hawke is an exceptional mage. Exceptional enough to put an ancient magister, one of the first darkspawn into a prison using his magic
Malcolm was an incredibly wise man, ready to take such responsability. Not just because he had "good values" but because he was both talented and experienced. But even he would send his children to the Circle if he felt that he couldn't save them from themselves.
Do you think every mage - every potential parent - is as capable as he was? And that every potential parent would never think of all the unlawful possibilities of starting a powerful family, bloodline to eventually obtain enough political power to be rich, influental?
No. No person, mage or not, is 100% evilproof. It's bad enough when simple people become corrupted and bring their kids up in a similiar manner. But a mage would be many times more dangerous
Anyways, the point is the Chantry has good people trying to help others, not just the mages, but the elves and other downtrodden as well. Most people still appear to look upon the Chantry with favor which makes them an excellent avenue for promoting change.
Thats not the issue. The problem is that the chantry has created an incredible self destructive system. Basically as the inquisitor you are their to clean the chantry's mess. The problem with religious people is that they are resistant to change or improvements. While i endorse the chantry doing charity work i would deficiently strip them of all political economical and military power.
Er, really? Corrupted slavery is better than corrupted non-slavery? So much superiority...
You focus on the slavery a bit to much. I find orlais to be much much worse.
Thats not the issue. The problem is that the chantry has created an incredible self destructive system. Basically as the inquisitor you are their to clean the chantry's mess. The problem with religious people is that they are resistant to change or improvements. While i endorse the chantry doing charity work i would deficiently strip them of all political economical and military power.
You focus on the slavery a bit to much. I find orlais to be much much worse.
It doesn't really matter what you find worse - I find screwing writing an essay much worse than losing a money bet - but slavery is one of the worst system the humanit has ever created in its history. No matter how corrupted Orlais is, the fact that there are laws forbidding buying, using and selling real people like some cattle makes the place much better than Tevinter has ever been
And if Dorian is indeed Dorian from the surveys, maybe that old mages dominated country still has a chance to become a better place
It doesn't really matter what you find worse - I find screwing writing an essay much worse than losing a money bet - but slavery is one of the worst system the humanit has ever created in its history. No matter how corrupted Orlais is, the fact that there are laws forbidding buying, using and selling real people like some cattle makes the place much better than Tevinter has ever been
And if Dorian is indeed Dorian from the surveys, maybe that old mages dominated country still has a chance to become a better place.
Being better however does not equal good. Or would you argue that the lifes of black people became better when slavery ended and they replaced it with segregation?
Thats not the issue. The problem is that the chantry has created an incredible self destructive system. Basically as the inquisitor you are their to clean the chantry's mess.
The Chantry is the organization that was trying to head this off in the first place, as Justina's actions clearly show. Anders and Meredith (two people driven insane by power) caused an incident the worsened the situation, and then the Chantry's attempt to lesson the burden on mages lead to the templars abandoning them to hunt Mages on their own. So no, this is not the Chantry's mess.
Worse, we already know that someone is behind all these incidents, someone is manipulating events to cause chaos, so you can't blame the Chantry at this point since we know there is another factor that is trying to breed war across the land.
The problem with religious people is that they are resistant to change or improvements.
I'm not going to start an argument about Faith, religion and science in this forum, I will post the following:
http://en.wikipedia....21st_century.29
and leave it at that.
The Inquisitor might clean the Chantry's mess (mage-templar war, which I doubt the Inquisition will end anyway) but the Inquisition is created with the goal of stopping the Fade Breach, not the mage-templar war. And the former isn't the Chantry's fault.
Whoever created the breach also had a hand in the mage-templar war. Not illogical as both the circles and the templars are first line of defence against a demon invasion with mages providing the knowledge and templars the muscle. That demons existed beyond the veil was a known fact so this is not exactly a surprise that such a thing can happen. Since the chantry took it upon itself to monitor all mages its also responsible that this defensive line remains strong. However the chantry left colossal weaknesses in its defence and i can blame them for that,
It doesn't really matter what you find worse - I find screwing writing an essay much worse than losing a money bet - but slavery is one of the worst system the humanit has ever created in its history. No matter how corrupted Orlais is, the fact that there are laws forbidding buying, using and selling real people like some cattle makes the place much better than Tevinter has ever been
And if Dorian is indeed Dorian from the surveys, maybe that old mages dominated country still has a chance to become a better place
Indeed it is completely subjective.However the strengths of the tevinter imperium must be acknowledged. And perhaps its useful to emulate some of their practices. Whatever their faults are they are ahead in a lot of way when it comes to mastering magic.
Worse, we already know that someone is behind all these incidents, someone is manipulating events to cause chaos, so you can't blame the Chantry at this point since we know there is another factor that is trying to breed war across the land.
That the chantry and thedas as a whole has enemy's is common knowledge. This enemy exploited the weaknesses of the chantry system and thus they are to blame.
So when a person's house is robbed it's the homeowners fault for having a weakness in their defenses?
If the Ukraine has Russian agents crossing the border and instigating civil unrest it's Ukrains fault since their border defenses were unable to keep the Russian's out?
If I get mugged on the street it's all my fault for not being visibly armed?
shall I go on?
So I find a point in common between MisterJB and LordRaijin
Asunder spoiler
Spoiler
Pro-mages and pro-templars might agree on something!
Dafuq? Evangeline was frickin' awesome! I'm pro mage and I liked her! 
So when a person's house is robbed it's the homeowners fault for having a weakness in their defenses?
If the Ukraine has Russian agents crossing the border and instigating civil unrest it's Ukrains fault since their border defenses were unable to keep the Russian's out?
If I get mugged on the street it's all my fault for not being visibly armed?
shall I go on?
In your cases the you leave the windows and doors open. the Ukraine army fails to remove said agents after being detected. and the police is eating donuts while you are being mugged right in front of them.
The chantry is responsible for magic then they are also responsible from protecting people from it. the fact they cannot handle this shows they are not capable managing the mages or magic.
Dafuq? Evangeline was frickin' awesome! I'm pro mage and I liked her!
If the Ukraine has Russian agents crossing the border and instigating civil unrest it's Ukrains fault since their border defenses were unable to keep the Russian's out?
In your cases the you leave the windows and doors open. the Ukraine army fails to remove said agents after being detected. and the police is eating donuts while you are being mugged right in front of them.
(Monotone voice) Discussing contemporary politics is inadvisable.
I would just like to point out that both Rivaini seers and Avvar shamans both had rituals were they got possessed, but at least in the Avvars case they know how to force out a spirit that doesn't want to leave. Just in case you people didn't notice they never say the seers or shamans are possessed by demons. They always says spirits. That's a huge difference. Also in every game so far we have found ways to force a demon out of someone who is possessed. We know for a fact that anyone can be freed from possession without everyone dieing. I would also like to say that if you are arguing that Templars treat mages so bad because the chantry can't rein them in all the way then the Chantry has failed in the duty and is responsible for all they do. My last point is that mages do need someone top hold them responsible for their actions and that can be mages or it can be non-mages. It doesn't matter either way. What you can't have is someone that uses religious doctrine as reasoning or an excuses for their actions. The second the Templar says "well the maker says" their argument is invalid.
O and bringing up Tevinter every time someone mentions what happens when mages are free doesn't make them wrong. The tevinter magisters are massive scumbags because they are massive scumbages, NOT because they can do magic.
Oh where to start?
Lets start with the fact the tevinters managed to usurp the power of the regional elven superpower transforming the humans from a bunch of backward savages to a legitimate society. Then they created an empire uniting or conquering all other human nations and maintaining it showing a talent for governance and administration not seen in any other nation in thedas.
Having magical knowledge far beyond what is seen today.
Also advancing the technology and architecture as displayed by ostagar and the imperial highway.
While they maybe responsible they did manage to pull humanity through the blight that lasted a century then managed to fight andraste's barbarian horde to a standstill all the while suffering a deep religious crisis and internal conflict.
And they still stand as a bulwark of stability while the rest of thedas has fallen into chaos. Not one chantry nation can even lay claim to a fraction of the accomplishments of tevinter and if it wasnt for the blight they would still be the dominant or perhaps even the only power in thedas.
Yes they are aholes but they are aholes that get **** done. copy what they did successfully and integrate in your own system.
1) You mean the same elven superpower they slaughtered and enslaved the survivors? Saying that was good is like saying the Conquistadors were good when they destroyed the cultures of the Americas.
2) Qunari are more advanced medically.
3) That's not Tevinter specific. Plus the Dwarves helped.
4) Being strong does not mean you are doing something right. Germany was able to hold off the world's superpowers while also having internal conflicts. Does that mean they were doing something right?
5) Orlais once consisted of Anderfels, Ferelden, Free Marches, and Nevarra, so I'd say that having a nation that was half the continent and almost as large as Tevinter counts as more than "fraction of the accomplishment" in terms of dominance.
So the only good things they did were not Tevinter-specific.
Give mages to much freedom, there will be ones who become monsters and lord their power over the muggles
Give mages to little freedom and they become the very monsters that you were trying to prevent in the first place.
Tevinter Magisters at the top are free, and outside a comic we have seen zero who are not sociopathic monsters.
At the same time its an extreme and an output of their society.
Personally I always want to go for a Charles Xavier route and teach people to control and adapt rather than to you know treat them like monsters.
The really big problem is the demons who possess mages, teach blood magic, and create abominations. Those are the things that need to be dealt with first, before we get to the mage issue at hand.
Personally I am hoping to make a Circle system that works cause what was built before was just a time bomb waiting to go off.
Give mages to much freedom, there will be ones who become monsters and lord their power over the muggles
Give mages to little freedom and they become the very monsters that you were trying to prevent in the first place.
Tevinter Magisters at the top are free, and outside a comic we have seen zero who are not sociopathic monsters.
At the same time its an extreme and an output of their society.
Personally I always want to go for a Charles Xavier route and teach people to control and adapt rather than to you know treat them like monsters.
The really big problem is the demons who possess mages, teach blood magic, and create abominations. Those are the things that need to be dealt with first, before we get to the mage issue at hand.
Personally I am hoping to make a Circle system that works cause what was built before was just a time bomb waiting to go off.
There's alot of Meganetos on this thread,
1) You mean the same elven superpower they slaughtered and enslaved the survivors? Saying that was good is like saying the Conquistadors were good when they destroyed the cultures of the Americas.
2) Qunari are more advanced medically.
3) That's not Tevinter specific. Plus the Dwarves helped.
4) Being strong does not mean you are doing something right. Germany was able to hold off the world's superpowers while also having internal conflicts. Does that mean they were doing something right?
5) Orlais once consisted of Anderfels, Ferelden, Free Marches, and Nevarra, so I'd say that having a nation that was half the continent and almost as large as Tevinter counts as more than "fraction of the accomplishment" in terms of dominance.
So the only good things they did were not Tevinter-specific.
Damnit im not here to glorify the imperium not to mention your arguments are for the most part are strawmen , borderline non cannon and yiou have a poor grasp of history. But because im not here for that debate i simply skip it. but however you put it they have practises that are superior. If you consider the tevinters your enemy then take their strengths as your own as the ultimate insult to them,
So why do you find it so difficult to support the Chantry in the same manner when you have examples of them showing mages respect and trying to ride herd on the worst of their Templars? You acknowledge that some Templars are in fact trying to help you figure the Chantry has no hand in that either? It doesn't occur to you that seeing someone like Justina encouraging people to treat mages with honor and respect might not be a factor?
Even in Dragon age Inquisition, it's been noted that it's the Chantry (Not the Templars) that came together with the mages at the Temple of the sacred ashes for a peace conference.
You want to know why Elthina, Justine and the Chantry as a whole has to be careful HOW they handle the Templars? Why they can't just tell them to do whatever they want? Why they need the Mages to prove they can be trusted before being able to loosen restrictions? Because the Templar's true loyalty isn't to the Chantry, it's to their interpretation of the Maker's will.
Let's take a look at Sister Petrice since you do so love to bring her up. She honestly believed the Qun was a threat to the Maker, and that those who followed the Qun could be killed in the Makers name. So she goes around the Grand Cleric's back and attempts to engineer a situation that will lead to open war. Thankfully Hawke can bring the truth to light, and the Grand Cleric will immediately revoke Petrice's protection and hand her over to the authorities. The Templars have a similar relationship to the Chantry. Some of them will only follow the Chantry so long as they believe the Chantry is following the Makers will or doing the right and sensible thing. And before you go blaming the Chantry for teaching them to hate Mages, Lambert, the one who lead the charge to abandon the covenant was from the Imperial Chantry and believed that Mages could govern themselves....until his former friend and Mage proved differently.
If you've ever seen Deep Space 9, you'll recognize the relationship between the Maker, the Chantry and the Templars. It's not too dissimilar to that between the Changelings, Vorta, and Jem'Hadar. Both the Vorta and the Jem'hadar revere the Changelings as gods and are doing their best to serve them, but both sides disagree about the best ways to do that. Basically the Dominion is the evil totalitarian version of what you see in Dragon Age.
Anyways, the point is the Chantry has good people trying to help others, not just the mages, but the elves and other downtrodden as well. Most people still appear to look upon the Chantry with favor which makes them an excellent avenue for promoting change.
Which reminds me, I now know why *YOU* should support the Chantry. Since the Chantry's heads have likely been killed in the same explosion that killed your mage leaders, supporting the Chantry might allow you to influence the message. This is your chance to affect wider Change, to use the Chantry to promote your own view of how mages should be treated. Afterall, the Chantry was already leaning towards treating mages with respect, that's why the Templars left, so now you have the chance to keep that up, and encourage all of Thedas to treat mages as you want them to be treated.
I have a difficult time supporting a religious organization that promotes bulliness and abuse, and not to mention imprisoning people and elves who haven't done anything illegal, but to be guilty of breathing and being different. The Chantry has became unnecessarily overly powerful that needs to be significantly toned down quite a bit. Anyone who is thinking outside of the box real quick would realize that taking mages to the circle, and imprisoning them like criminals is flat out wrong. How in the world can mages use their magic to serve men when they're being prevented from using it because the Chantry is petrified that if they give these mages some freedom that they will become the next Tevinter Imperium 2.0, which is ridiculous. That's paranoid like thinking.
The Chantry does do some good, but the treatment of mages is unacceptable and needs to be changed, which I hope that in this incoming game that we, as the Inquisition, can end the Templar/Mage war and force the Chantry to give some (Yes I've said some, not all) freedom to the mages.
Mages are best fit to serve man with their magic talents if they're allowed to be free, and to be allowed to work with mundanes in the working force, and to be productive members of society. Destruction mages who produces fire are great for black smiting, and healing mages can work in hospitals healing the sick and injured. Templars can even hire mages who specializes in spirit magic (and destruction) to help them to track down rogue mages who actually do illegal activities. Mages and Templars can coexist with each other. Even blood mages can serve man if used in the right way.
Earlier I said giving some mages "some" freedom. What I meant by saying that is that I believe their should be some restriction, like all mages must be accounted for, and must provide blood examples to put in a phylactery for when a mage becomes a troublesome that they're easy to track down, and to face justice. Having magic is a great deal of responsibility and if you lack of it you either be made tranquil or to be executed.
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