That connor should have been send to the circle is completely true. But his mothers fears are justified and so we can blame the current chantry led circle system.
They aren't justified. She fears sending him to the Circle for appearance's sake. She let her vanity result in the deaths of countless people.
You can do what you want. I'll still blame Isolde, Jowan and Loghain more than the Chantry.That connor should have been send to the circle is completely true. But his mothers fears are justified and so we can blame the current chantry led circle system.
You can do what you want. I'll still blame Isolde, Jowan and Loghain more than the Chantry.
I'm not a big fan of the Chantry, but I won't blame them for people's idiocy.
I dont disagree. But i still believe that system needs major improvements.
I dont disagree. But i still believe that system needs major improvements.
For Isolde case, it's true. It was all because the vanity and stupidity of one person. But there are other cases, like Meredith sister. Her family was terrified that the Chantry would take her away and they hid her. Weren't for the fears the Chantry created for families with mages, the situation could be avoided.
I agree, up to a point. Lawful positions provide a clear idea of where that person's argument comes from, true. However, although clarity and consistency are welcome, they're pretty useless if there isn't a common ground.
The Templars using the Andrastian argument, for example, falls flat against non-Andrastians. Let's suppose I'm a Dalish Keeper. Why should I care about what the Maker supposedly says to the shemlen? Or a pagan Rivaini seer. Any argument that uses "because the Maker says so" is automatically invalid for them, since they don't believe in the Maker.
However, I agree, there's a catch: the Mage-Templar conflict is not a war of Andrastians against non-Andrastians. So far, the mages are shown to be generally Andrastians, even if they do tend to have a rather lax approach at it. The Chantry can provide common ground for them, even if it's just "Andraste would facepalm if she saw the current state of things".
For Isolde case, it's true. It was all because the vanity and stupidity of one person. But there are other cases, like Meredith sister. Her family was terrified that the Chantry would take her away and they hid her. Weren't for the fears the Chantry created for families with mages, the situation could be avoided.
Meredith's family hid her sister because she was a gentle child and they feared she wouldn't survive the rigorous tests such as the Harrowing.
And yet, she seems to be the best example as to why the Harrowing is necessary. Her parents, rightfully, feared she wouldn't survive an encounter with a demon, so they hid.
But, of course, being a mage she ended up attracting one and being possessed. If she had died during her Harrowing, she, at least, wouldn't have killed 73 other people.
No parent wants to accept that their child is now too dangerous to live in the outside but, it's just the way things are.
Except it's not. Not as indefinite as anything he listed. IF she knew what Jowan was going to do, she could have not hired him or assigned guards to watch him when she wasn't around and avoided everything. Doing so without knowing would happen would have been a coincidence, and she wouldn't be the one to thank. Just like how her hiring him without knowing anything that was going to happen may have resulted in everything that happened but she isn't to blame. Her having an abortion would have avoided it all as well but it would have also been ridiculous to blame her because she didn't do that.Those are all 'could have been avoided'. Sending him to the Circle is a 'would have been avoided'.
It's quite simple to do as long as you do it discretely and systematically at once.
Put the Qunari juice in the water supplies and make sure the dosage is just enough that the Mages won't notice the gradual breaking down of their will to resist and everything else is smooth sailing.
The collaring aspect is psychological warfare.
EDIT: Scratch the psychological warfare, the collars will be magically infused restraints like ones used on Kotjan or w/e his name is and Knight LTs will have the control rods or scrolls or staffs.
This is an off topic question, but do you write dragon age fanfictions by any chance? As much as we strongly disagree with each other your writings would be highly intriguing as a pro mage.
Except it's not. Not as indefinite as anything he listed. IF she knew what Jowan was going to do, she could have not hired him or assigned guards to watch him when she wasn't around and avoided everything. Doing so without knowing would happen would have been a coincidence, and she wouldn't be the one to thank. Just like how her hiring him without knowing anything that was going to happen may have resulted in everything that happened but she isn't to blame. Her having an abortion would have avoided it all as well but it would have also been ridiculous to blame her because she didn't do that.
If she sent Connor to the Circle, he would not have led to the deaths of those at Redcliffe. That's what I'm saying. If she did that, it would have been avoided. He can't slaughter Redcliffe if he isn't there.
No, but it's a result of Isolde hiding the truth. Granted, Loghain/Jowan had an hand in it, but it wouldn't have happened if Isolde wouldn't have hidden Connor's nature.
Who wants to surrender their children to become the chantries prisoners? Who wants to have their kid get taken away, and never to be seen again? The Templar's can reject visitations at any given time.
The whole incident about Connor was Loghain's fault. Had he not kidnapped the Templar LT from perusing Jowan Connor would've never been exposed to such Dominic possession.
Who wants to surrender their children to become the chantries prisoners? Who wants to have their kid get taken away, and never to be seen again? The Templar's can reject visitations at any given time.
The whole incident about Connor was Loghain's fault. Had he not kidnapped the Templar LT from perusing Jowan Connor would've never been exposed to such Dominic possession.
Mages are *always* exposed to demonic possession. That's the whole problem.
Isolde's actions are understandable as a mother but were ultimately selfish and irresponsible.
In the grander scheme of things, I hope a middle way can be found in all this. That's the kind of character I play in DA, anyway.
This is an off topic question, but do you write dragon age fanfictions by any chance? As much as we strongly disagree with each other your writings would be highly intriguing as a pro mage.
I am a terrible writer so no.
You said as much, and again an abortion would have suited all those criteria and I don't blame her for not doing either of those.If she sent Connor to the Circle, he would not have led to the deaths of those at Redcliffe. That's what I'm saying. If she did that, it would have been avoided. He can't slaughter Redcliffe if he isn't there.
She is still able to visit Connor, especially considering how high her station was since she is an Arlessa.
... I think you intended to respond to Raijin.She is still able to visit Connor, especially considering how high her station was since she is an Arlessa.
... I think you intended to respond to Raijin.
Oops.
Totally get that too.
Although whether someone believes in the Maker or not doesn't matter to a country that has it's government based on or supported by the Chantry. eg. An apostate, whether a believer or not, who is in Orlais can be subject to Orlais' Chantry based laws. So a Templar referencing her/his teaching is not invalid. It is their jurisdiction.
Just as an American in Italy could be subject to Italian law. Of course there are a ton of diplomatic things that could happen at that point, but while that is happening the American is sitting in an Italian prison.
That's true. However, jurisdiction is a tricky thing in a medieval setting. In theory, jurisdiction belongs to the states and states can be so only when they have the monopoly on violence. Feudal societies aren't strong enough in that regard.
Also, we're taking about a time when the divide between state and religion wasn't very clear. As the Exalted Marches prove, having a different religion is a valid casus belli in Thedas. In our modern world, we are used to Westphalian diplomacy and sovereignty: that states have the right to determine the rules and laws they abide to, that all states are diplomatically equal, and that states shouldn't intervene in the internal affairs of other states. The nearest example in Thedas would be the Llomerryn accords, so maybe things are changing.
Using religious arguments in an Andrastian country is valid, but wouldn't they insist on applying them in other countries too, since there's no Westphalian sovereignty? It has already happened. The Chantry didn't accept that the Dales kicked out their missionaries and problems started piling up until the Exalted March. Or the Exalted Marches against Tevinter. Or the epilogue about the Circle in Orzammar.
Who wants to surrender their children to become the chantries prisoners? Who wants to have their kid get taken away, and never to be seen again? The Templar's can reject visitations at any given time.
Well, we do know that the Tower in Ferelden was more open in that regard. Finn had a very close relationship with his parents. Not to talk about many examples of people in power favouring their mage children, such as the palace given to the College of Magi in Cumberland so that a Nevarran Duchess' daughter would live in comfort, or the case of First Enchanter Illana of Montsimmard. The real problem was that Connor was Eamon's only son, and couldn't inherit if he was found out to be a mage.
Even in Kirkwall visitation was granted and not even as a favor to the rich, noble or even charming. Gamlen was a no title having ass with debts and he still got to see Bethany. With that said, it always annoyed me that at least one visit by Hawke wasn't written in.
Yeah, I had the same feeling. We only got the option to visit the tower when things went down, but not even a visit to Hawke's sister? I mean, at least the Warden sibling had the excuse of being away on missions.
Isolde didn't send Connor because she didn't want others to know she had a Mage child,not because the Circle is bad.
Of course if the Chantry and Tevinter-wannabe-Mages weren't so dumb then she wouldn't have to fear anything.
If you want the source of the problem then it's the Maker (at least by the Chantry),he shouldn't have created Magic,or should've gave Magic for everyone.
Except the Chanties teachings that mages are to be hated and despised, which is the base of the problem, declaring a group sub-human never ends well.
Except the Chanties teachings that mages are to be hated and despised, which is the base of the problem, declaring a group sub-human never ends well.
Tell me something, where exactly is the evidence that the Chantry teaches that mages are to be hated and despised? Do you have a sermon from some part of the franchise I can't recall.
Because I can post a sermon from the very first Divine where she alerts to the dangers of magic but alsot alks of welcoming mages brothers if they respect the laws of Andraste?
"It has been asked, "What are maleficarum? How shall we know them?" I have been asked by this question as you. You have come to me for the wisdom of the Maker, but none have seen the Maker's heart save Beloved Andraste. And so I have done as all mortals must, and looked to the words of His prophet for answers. And there, I found respite from a troubled mind.
For she has said to us, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him." Therefore, I say to you, they who work magic which dominates the minds and hearts of others, they have transgressed the Makers law.
Also, Our Lady said to us, "Those who bring harm without provocation to the least of His children are hated and accursed by the Maker." And so it is made clear to me, as it should be to us all: That magic which fuels itself by harming others, by the letting of blood, is hated by the Maker.
Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us.
--From The Sermons of Justinia I."
http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Maleficarum
What about you? Do you have something to back up your claims. Because if you do not, then it is entirely possible that all the Chantry teaches is as simple as "Mages once enslaved all of mankind...mages can be possessed by demons at any time...mages can make your blood boil" which is, indisputedly, the truth and that, the truth, is what leads to people hating mages.
Because I can't imagine they'd be quick to accept people who can kill them with a thought or risk becoming weapons of mass destruction regardless of their integrity.
I think it is more of if mother and Father Surana both live in the Denerim Alienage when if ever will the be able to afford the long journey to see their child, they might not even be literate let alone able to get any mail from Little Mage Surana. Finn shows some parents do keep up ties to the Mage children, but how many peasant fathers or Elven mothers can read their children's letters or afford the trek to the towers.Well said.
In addition to the parents/children visitation it seems more the particular family's and particular Circle's issue and less an issue with the Circle as a whole.
Even in Kirkwall visitation was granted and not even as a favor to the rich, noble or even charming. Gamlen was a no title having ass with debts and he still got to see Bethany. With that said, it always annoyed me that at least one visit by Hawke wasn't written in.
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