532 réponses à ce sujet

[Nohvarr]

I think they are saying they doubt she was power hungry.

Agreed, Sebastion comments that if the Mages and the Templars go to war Elthina will put herself between them (a statement born out by her refusing Meredith ROA request and by her breaking up the near fight between the two early in chapter 3) and be torn apart. Anders points out he killed her specifically so she wouldn't try and stop all this fighting. Then there is her refusal to leave Kirkwall despite the requests of the Divine, at which point Elthina puts more importance on the safety of her flock than her own life or  the treasures of the Chantry.

 

She didn't want power, she wanted peace. You can debate about whether or not she did enough but it's worth pointing out that the Divine looking at the city made her fear for it's safety. Afterall if she picks a side the other faction would go ballistic, and the Divine would step in with all the subtly of a Hurricane.

[MisterJB]

You know what I hope for? I hope for an opportunity in the game to actually sit down with normal people and mages who are willing to talk about the problem and listen to what the other side has to say rather than yell that arguing will get us nowhere and self-righteously walk off to plot mass murder.

[Todd23]

You know what I hope for? I hope for an opportunity in the game to actually sit down with normal people and mages who are willing to talk about the problem and listen to what the other side has to say rather than yell that arguing will get us nowhere and self-righteously walk off to plot mass murder.

Followed by an explosion that kills them all except for our own character.

[Bad King]

I'm sure it's very confortable for the mages to live in constant paranoia and fear that the templars wll strike you down or make you tranquil for the slightest mistake.

Strop sugar coating them. You think an couple of good deeds excuse their mistakes and wrong doings? Defying Grey warden authority to capture an mage? Tortute and murder dalish elfs for holding apostates? Send an death squad to threanten and murder civilians for trying to help mages? Ignoring abuses comitted by members from their own order? Slaugthering civilians for refusing to worship the maker? I think it's way past time someone puts them out of their misery.

 

Most of the cases that you mention here were committed by rogue templars not representative of the majority. The examples that I have mentioned were sanctioned by the chantry and by the order's rule of conduct and are thus more representative of the templars as a whole.

 

To add to my list, the templars also protect farmers in Amaranthine from the darkspawn when there are few others around to help.

[Giggles_Manically]

You know what I hope for? I hope for an opportunity in the game to actually sit down with normal people and mages who are willing to talk about the problem and listen to what the other side has to say rather than yell that arguing will get us nowhere and self-righteously walk off to plot mass murder.

What you expect people to act rationally in Thedas?
 

Where it seems Red Lyrium snorting is becoming a international sport.

[Lord Raijin]

We have come across several mages over the past two games who have posed huge threats to people and had nothing to do with running from Templars. Baroness and Quentin are the first to come to mind. And despite how good a mage is, there is the constant threat of possession so there needs to be some sort of countermeasure in place since a single abomination can slaughter dozens if not hundreds of people before being stopped if there is no counter to it. 

 

And funny you mention that. I am currently playing DA2 and there was two sisters in the Chantry who were sad that there was so many people in Darktown who were refusing their help. And with a city the size of Kirkwall, there is no way Anders was the only healer there. And the high politician(singular) went down there because he had a STD so wanted it cured without people finding out, so he went to Anders. 

If I recall correctly Quentin was a part of the Starkhaven Circle of Magi who escaped when it burned down to the ground.

 

And if you want to discuss about those who posed huge threat to people lets talk about Knight-Commander Martel (who murdered the High Seeker) and Grand Cleric Callista, who was conspiring with dangerous bloodmage leader to assassinate Divine Beatrix III, and other Grand clerics at Val Royeaux.  Had their plan worked flawlessly Callista would've been made the next new Divine and Martel would of became the left/right hand of the divine therefor granting him the ultimate power that he desires.

 

Had Loghain Mac Tir successfully had Alistair and the warden executed, or murdered by the crows the Archdemon would've won all of Ferelden, and everyone would of parish (with an exception of the women, since they would be forced to become broodmothers) by the Dark spawn.

 

A politician who lush for power is just as dangerous as a mage who makes deals with demons, or actually become possessed by one.

[Chari]

If I recall correctly Quentin was a part of the Starkhaven Circle of Magi who escaped when it burned down to the ground.

And if you want to discuss about those who posed huge threat to people lets talk about Knight-Commander Martel (who murdered the High Seeker) and Grand Cleric Callista, who was conspiring with dangerous bloodmage leader to assassinate Divine Beatrix III, and other Grand clerics at Val Royeaux. Had their plan worked flawlessly Callista would've been made the next new Divine and Martel would of became the left/right hand of the divine therefor granting him the ultimate power that he desires.

Had Loghain Mac Tir successfully had Alistair and the warden executed, or murdered by the crows the Archdemon would've won all of Ferelden, and everyone would of parish (with an exception of the women, since they would be forced to become broodmothers) by the Dark spawn.

A politician who lush for power is just as dangerous as a mage who makes deals with demons, or actually become possessed by one.

No matter how powerful a politician is, they can't turn people into bloody goo with a thought
Most mages can do that regardless if their personal skills and character

[Kira_Sadi]

Are we still yelling about everyone should hate the Chantry?....good I see we have grown as people XXD

[Todd23]

No matter how powerful a politician is, they can't turn people into bloody goo with a thought
Mages can do that if their personal skills are beyond exponential and character is completely immoral.

Fixed!

[Kira_Sadi]

Fixed!

 

I would post the other one as well I got confused as to what you fixed XXD

[Todd23]

I would post the other one as well I got confused as to what you fixed XXD

I'd bold my changes, but the new forum while it is easier to use takes away a lot of what I'm able to do while on a mobile device... I can't even post pictures. *single tear

[Kira_Sadi]

I'd bold my changes, but the new forum while it is easier to use takes away a lot of what I'm able to do while on a mobile device... I can't even post pictures. *single tear

 

Lol thanks and NUUU CRYING IS UNJUST!!!!!

[Lord Raijin]

No matter how powerful a politician is, they can't turn people into bloody goo with a thought
Most mages can do that regardless if their personal skills and character

 

But they can most certainly create a bloody scene with their weapons. Have you even read The Stolen Throne? If not read it and read such violence that mundanes impale against each other. Look at the barbaric procedure that the Qunari people do to their mages. They cut off their tongues and sew their mouths shut.

[AkiKishi]

Second Son summed it up nicely. "If a regular guy has a bad day at work he may come home and punch a wall. If a conduit has a bad day at work he could level a city block". 

 

The Humans want to control that power, the Qunari just want to make it a non issue.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If I recall correctly Quentin was a part of the Starkhaven Circle of Magi who escaped when it burned down to the ground.

And? How does him being a former Circle mage refute me saying he was a real danger to people and had nothing to do with running from the Templars? He straight up killed the only Templar who was investigating. Hardly sounds like running when you provoke the Templars by killing one of them.

 

 

And if you want to discuss about those who posed huge threat to people lets talk about Knight-Commander Martel (who murdered the High Seeker) and Grand Cleric Callista, who was conspiring with dangerous bloodmage leader to assassinate Divine Beatrix III, and other Grand clerics at Val Royeaux.  Had their plan worked flawlessly Callista would've been made the next new Divine and Martel would of became the left/right hand of the divine therefor granting him the ultimate power that he desires.

 

Had Loghain Mac Tir successfully had Alistair and the warden executed, or murdered by the crows the Archdemon would've won all of Ferelden, and everyone would of parish (with an exception of the women, since they would be forced to become broodmothers) by the Dark spawn.

 

A politician who lush for power is just as dangerous as a mage who makes deals with demons, or actually become possessed by one.

 

Still doesn't disprove my points of mages needing someone to oversee them by saying "Well there's bad nonmages too" since those people in your examples were also dealt with by an authority force. Why should mages not have one as well? 

[Captain_Harkness]

Ultimately the issue is mages are being persecuted for their potential danger. It doesn't matter how much damage someone can cause. It is immoral to judge them for something they may do, not something they have actually done. Now that the chantry are officially separated from the templars thanks to Lambert some real progress can occur. The templar order essentially needs to become a secular police force with the duties of protecting mages from dicsimination and harm from those who fear them and hunting down those who break the law. I will only be satisfied when mages are free to do as they please within the law just like any other free citizen. Just like everyone else they will need to be held responsible for any crimes committed and the templars would be the ones to capture and sentence them since they are trained to do so.

[ManOfSteel]

 

 

 

You know what happens when mundanes like you opens their mouths to us mages, don't you? You get turned into a fat toad only to be put into a boiling pot to be cooked up for dinner.

 

http://youtu.be/PdYmiGe7gCs?t=1m

 

...and that is why the Chantry and the Templars are necessarily. To protect honest, hard working people from idiotic mages who believe themselves to be above their station.

 

To be on topic, I certainly hope we can support the Chantry. I definitely don't intend to actively work against it if at all possible, and I certainly don't plan to aid the mages in any way, shape or form. Get back in the Circle and stay there.

[Nohvarr]

Ultimately the issue is mages are being persecuted for their potential danger. It doesn't matter how much damage someone can cause. It is immoral to judge them for something they may do, not something they have actually done.

 

They're not being judged for any crimes, they are being trained in the use of their gifts in an environment designed to give them the best chance at learning to control their powers. A lot of those rules are in place for their own protection and success. By not allowing an untrained/untested mage out into the world you reduce the possibility of a terrible incident occuring.

 

Now that the chantry are officially separated from the templars thanks to Lambert some real progress can occur.

 

If you believe that the Templars will be less dangerous to mages after leaving the Chantry you have not been paying attention at all. Ser Alrik and later Meredith were both held in check by the local Chantry representative. Even the Divine was doing what she could to help the mages. Now there is no oversight and no authority over the Templar's except their own consciences, which is bad considering what some of the previous Templars' felt was justified. Meanwhile the good Templars who tried to help the mages appear to either still be with the Chantry, have been marginalized by their more aggressive brothers/sisters or dead at the hands of mages they tried to help. So really what you have right now is the worst of the Templars the ones who felt the Chantry wasn't doing enough to permanently solve the Mage problem, on their own and free to kill any Mage they see.

 

Exlaine to me again how that is better than before?

[Nohvarr]

...and that is why the Chantry and the Templars are necessarily. To protect honest, hard working people from idiotic mages who believe themselves to be above their station.

 

I just realized who Rajin sounds like

 

 

Just replace mutant with mage.

[Eveangaline]

I'd say the templars splitting from the chantry is good because it forces them to have a lot more accountability than they would before. Templars as hand of the church makes it hard for people to point out how shitty some things they do are. I mean really, are you questioning the templars, questioning the chantry, questioning GOD?!

 

Taking away that means people can be like "oh hey you guys do some terrible things, lets fix that." Or ****, even scrape the templars all together and create a new system without the flaws of the old.

[Nohvarr]

I'd say the templars splitting from the chantry is good because it forces them to have a lot more accountability than they would before. Templars as hand of the church makes it hard for people to point out how shitty some things they do are. I mean really, are you questioning the templars, questioning the chantry, questioning GOD?!

 

Taking away that means people can be like "oh hey you guys do some terrible things, lets fix that." Or ****, even scrape the templars all together and create a new system without the flaws of the old.

So you think that the people who have just abandoned the Chantry will care one whit what other people think? Do you honestly believe that men and women who see themselves enacting the makers will, and view the Chantry as having failed in that task will listen to anyone else?

 

You know what's more likely, they'll ignore anyone who disagrees with them since those people aren't as devoted to the Maker or are unable to understand his true divine will. Worse, whatever reasonable faction there was likely died in the blast that starts the game. So no, this is not a good thing at all.

[Jaison1986]

I think it's better to get rid of the templars and replace them with an group with more competence and less bias. People naively believe templars are knights in shiny armor that can do no wrong while mages are fools that need to be saved from themselves. Wereas I think both sides can have incredibly shitty people. I don't deny from one second that there are bad people among the mages. So long as there are templars and chantries, mages can't be taught without an whole baggage of abuse coming along. But if they are taken out of the equation (be it peacefuly or violently), I think mundanes and mages will have an chance to start anew from an clean slate.

[Nohvarr]

I think it's better to get rid of the templars and replace them with an group with more competence and less bias.

 

I would love to know where you are going to find these unbiased people? We can't even find them on this forum which is composed of gamers from a modern era with relatively forward thinking. You think you can find enough people capable of completing the job of the Templars while remaining totally unbiased in Thedas? Do you plan to part "The Waking Sea" afterwards?

[Eveangaline]

So you think that the people who have just abandoned the Chantry will care one whit what other people think? Do you honestly believe that men and women who see themselves enacting the makers will, and view the Chantry as having failed in that task will listen to anyone else?

 

You know what's more likely, they'll ignore anyone who disagrees with them since those people aren't as devoted to the Maker or are unable to understand his true divine will. Worse, whatever reasonable faction there was likely died in the blast that starts the game. So no, this is not a good thing at all.

 

I think that other people will be a lot more willing to stop them now that they aren't attached to the chantry. They can ignore other people all they want it will make them that much easier to stab because they're kidnapping people under no authority that the common citizens consider lawful. Heck, you think governments of the nations will put up with them that easily without the chantry to back them up? Losing the chantry means losing a vast chunk of their support from the general people, the governments they operate in, and probably a massive hit to their financial resources. After all, who is paying for their swords and supplies?

 

If they refuse to act reasonably and rationally and work with the governments, they'll be seen as rogue agents and probably be put down like ones.

[Nohvarr]

I think that other people will be a lot more willing to stop them now that they aren't attached to the chantry.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the farmer and his family when they try to resist the armed men with the training armor and weapons.

 

They can ignore other people all they want it will make them that much easier to stab because they're kidnapping people under no authority that the common citizens consider lawful.

 

"Here i stand with my bayonet, there you stand with your laws. We'll see which prevails"

- A. Hitler

 

And that's not even counting the people who will still recognize the Templars as the best way to solve the Mage issue, or did you think all the Commoners support the mages?

 

Heck, you think governments of the nations will put up with them that easily without the chantry to back them up? Losing the chantry means losing a vast chunk of their support from the general people, the governments they operate in, and probably a massive hit to their financial resources. After all, who is paying for their swords and supplies?

 

I do, because the governments have shown no desire to deal with the care, protection, training or figting of mages on their own. Most will likely allow the Templars to operate since they will keep the mages from threatening (or at least appear to do so) the common folk. Allowing the goverments to look like they are doing something without doing anything but paying men to kill potential problems.

 

If they refuse to act reasonably and rationally and work with the governments, they'll be seen as rogue agents and probably be put down like ones.

 

Doubtful, since they are dealing with rogue mages I figure most governments won't do a whole lot to stop them as long as they remain focused on mages.