532 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

...and that is why the Chantry and the Templars are necessarily. To protect honest, hard working people from idiotic mages who believe themselves to be above their station.

 

To be on topic, I certainly hope we can support the Chantry. I definitely don't intend to actively work against it if at all possible, and I certainly don't plan to aid the mages in any way, shape or form. Get back in the Circle and stay there.

 

The Chantry and the Templars are NOT necessary, not under the current system (prior to Asunder). How can they protect the honest, hard working people from evil mages when they themselves are guilty for engaging mayhem against the very same people that they're trying to protect?

 

I find it hilarious how the anti mages folks like you get all riled up when a mage (Anders) finally stands up for himself  against his oppressors, and decided to blow up the chantry, but refuses to acknowledge that a mundane Chantry priest, Sister Petrice,  inflicted far more damage to Kirkwall by stirring up trouble against the Qunari people, which resulted in the death of the Viscount and his son and so many innocent people. It is Sister Petrice fault that Kirkwall started going down hill fast after the Qunari defeat. If you spare Sister Petrice's life the only punishment that Elthina gave to this woman was a demotion, despite all of the deaths that she caused. You would think that Elthina would order for this woman's execution for such a high crime, but no. The Chantry are nothing more than a bunch of geriatrics old women who are intolerant of other peoples religious belief, and believe that their religion should dominate all of the other religions that are out there.

[Eveangaline]

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the farmer and his family when they try to resist the armed men with the training armor and weapons.

 

 

 

 

"Here i stand with my bayonet, there you stand with your laws. We'll see which prevails"

- A. Hitler

 

And that's not even counting the people who will still recognize the Templars as the best way to solve the Mage issue, or did you think all the Commoners support the mages?

 

 

 

 

I do, because the governments have shown no desire to deal with the care, protection, training or figting of mages on their own. Most will likely allow the Templars to operate since they will keep the mages from threatening (or at least appear to do so) the common folk. Allowing the goverments to look like they are doing something without doing anything but paying men to kill potential problems.

 

 

 

 

Doubtful, since they are dealing with rogue mages I figure most governments won't do a whole lot to stop them as long as they remain focused on mages.

 

It'll be interesting how the government reacts to too many farmers and their families getting killed by a rogue military order operating in their state on their citizens without permission from either the government or the church.

 

How exactly will the templars buy their bayonets? The mages probably won't enchant for them once they've gone completely coocoo and the church isn't funding their butts anymore. Also you're forgetting that the laws have bayonets as well in this scenario.

 

I think the common people support the Chantry more than they support either Templars or mages, and specifically cutting themselves off from the Chantry paints them as more anti-chantry than the mages could look.

 

I think the government would much rather deal with the mages then have them be dealt with by some group that doesn't answer to either the law or the church. Otherwise why not just invite some qunari in to take your mages away?

 

They aren't dealing with rogue mages they are dealing with every mage. A noble family might have been willing to hand off a mage child they had to a chantry approved templar but would they really allow some now random organization to hold onto their kid?

[Gtdef]

Templars are ineffective at policing mages for various reasons. After all, most of the recruits are just promising fighters. They are told that they are supposed to be the watch dogs and that mages are dangerous. Their understanding of their charges is very limited. As I see it, the only ones that can perform this role is mages themselves. After all, only they understand the perils and the hardships they face and only they can create a system that is effective without having to deny every possible freedom to an individual. Where there are 2 factions and 2 sets of interests, there are politics.

 

Personally I don't understand why a mage that passed the Harrowing shouldn't be allowed to freely leave the Circle. It's my understanding that Harrowing proves that the mage is resistant to demonic influence. So why can't he live as a free citizen. He is no more dangerous than any other individual with a knife or a torch. At least take leave to see family or pursue a cause. Also I don't understand why a mage can't see his family after being taken to the circle. The templars are like "look, these people are so dangerous that if they fall to temptation, they can destroy our world, so we push them till they are really hateful and they start making deals with demons".

 

What Thedas needs is a policing force that deals with magic matters just like the city guard deals with city crime. Hopefully that's what Inquisition will be about, so the next games won't have to deal with this pointless mages vs antimages.

[Nohvarr]

I find it hilarious how the anti mages folks like you get all riled up when a mage (Anders) finally stands up for himself  against his oppressors, and decided to blow up the chantry

 

Right there, that is the problem, not that he chose to stand up for himself but that he decided to destroy a building with a lot of symbolic signifiance to the people of the city and kill an old woman who had been keeping meredith from enacting an ROA and was generally beloved by the people of that same city. He knowing started a war and sacrificed the kirkwall circle to do it, every single mage who died did so because Anders refused to find another way. If he wanted to die and free justice all he had to do was go after Meredith, on his own. At least that way he'd only be killing himself.

 

It is Sister Petrice fault that Kirkwall started going down hill fast after the Qunari defeat. If you spare Sister Petrice's life the only punishment that Elthina gave to this woman was a demotion, despite all of the deaths that she caused. You would think that Elthina would order for this woman's execution for such a high crime

 

Even when Elthina was flat out told what this woman had done, the grand cleric handed her over to the authorities for a proper trial and did not order her death. So why are you surprised that without sufficient evidence she could only demote her? How is that out of character for a kindly old woman who told Sebastian that murdering the men who killed his family was not the right way of doing things? Why do you continually try an absolve Anders of Murder by trying to turn Elthina into something she's not, just as your hated Templar twist all mages into something vile?

[Gtdef]

 

I find it hilarious how the anti mages folks like you get all riled up when a mage (Anders) finally stands up for himself  against his oppressors, and decided to blow up the chantry

 

 

 

 

 

Anders is a terrorist. He is the bad guy. He sacrificed a good woman that worked only to prevent the loss of lives just to goad templars into invoking the ROA. Sure he had his reasons, but every single terrorist has his reasons. He didn't even prepare the mages for what was to come. He didn't care about winning. He didn't care about the lives lost. Only for the opportunity he created for the mages to fight the templars and the "message".

 

The worst part is that he doesn't have a plan. To his eyes it's better to die fighting. So he forces everyone to do just that. And he forces the player to take a side. Personally I side with the mages cause Meredith is as bad as Anders, even worse, and mages need a fighting chance. They are innocents.

[Nohvarr]

It'll be interesting how the government reacts to too many farmers and their families getting killed by a rogue military order operating in their state on their citizens without permission from either the government or the church.

 

Define 'Too many'

 

How many people will die unheard of and unmarked? How many people will the government have to hear about before they act? Are you sure they even would, I mean everyone knows mages are dangerous as these farmers were standing against the Templars who have been doing this for generations? Would the farmers even have the guts to deny the armed men with the swords?

 

How exactly will the templars buy their bayonets? The mages probably won't enchant for them once they've gone completely coocoo and the church isn't funding their butts anymore.

 

The Templars are already armed, armored and trained. They are an army unto themselves and since the broke away from the Chantry with ease I think we can safely assume that funding is not an immediate issue. Supplies have likely been stored and will be distributed as needy until the mages are put down

 

Also you're forgetting that the laws have bayonets as well in this scenario.

 

So a member of the watch is going to stop a Templar from dealing with an apostate mage? Why would he get involved with something he/she is not trained to handle?

 

I think the common people support the Chantry more than they support either Templars or mages, and specifically cutting themselves off from the Chantry paints them as more anti-chantry than the mages could look.

 

From the Wiki: "Templars are considered by the common folk to be the saviors and holy warriors of Thedas, protecting the world from the dangers of magic unchecked."

 

You do realize that most common people do not have our viewpoint on the inner workings of the Chantry or the Templars. They will be confused, unsure and likely just to stay out of the way of the armed men.

 

I think the government would much rather deal with the mages then have them be dealt with by some group that doesn't answer to either the law or the church. Otherwise why not just invite some qunari in to take your mages away?

 

The Templars are the devils the government knows, the Qunari and the Mages are the devils they don't. Mages can manipulate your mind, twist your will, how could any government official be sure his or her mind wasn't being twisted by that accursed power

 

They aren't dealing with rogue mages they are dealing with every mage. A noble family might have been willing to hand off a mage child they had to a chantry approved templar but would they really allow some now random organization to hold onto their kid?

 

They are not a random organization, they are still Templars with a long and well known History. Most nobles families keep their kids if they want them anyways, it's the commoners (As usual) who will suffer and the various kingdoms don't listen to the small folk as much as you seem to think.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anders is a terrorist. He is the bad guy. He sacrificed a good woman that worked only to prevent the loss of lives just to goad templars into invoking the ROA. Sure he had his reasons, but every single terrorist has his reasons. He didn't even prepare the mages for what was to come. He didn't care about winning. He didn't care about the lives lost. Only for the opportunity he created for the mages to fight the templars and the "message".

 

The worst part is that he doesn't have a plan. To his eyes it's better to die fighting. So he forces everyone to do just that. And he forces the player to take a side. Personally I side with the mages cause Meredith is as bad as Anders, even worse, and mages need a fighting chance. They are innocents.

 

And at least Meredith has the excuse of the Red Lyrium idol driving her insane. Anders is just Anders. 

[Eveangaline]

Define 'Too many'

 

How many people will die unheard of and unmarked? How many people will the government have to hear about before they act? Are you sure they even would, I mean everyone knows mages are dangerous as these farmers were standing against the Templars who have been doing this for generations? Would the farmers even have the guts to deny the armed men with the swords?

 

 

 

 

The Templars are already armed, armored and trained. They are an army unto themselves and since the broke away from the Chantry with ease I think we can safely assume that funding is not an immediate issue. Supplies have likely been stored and will be distributed as needy until the mages are put down

 

 

 

 

So a member of the watch is going to stop a Templar from dealing with an apostate mage? Why would he get involved with something he/she is not trained to handle?

 

 

 

 

From the Wiki: "Templars are considered by the common folk to be the saviors and holy warriors of Thedas, protecting the world from the dangers of magic unchecked."

 

You do realize that most common people do not have our viewpoint on the inner workings of the Chantry or the Templars. They will be confused, unsure and likely just to stay out of the way of the armed men.

 

 

 

 

The Templars are the devils the government knows, the Qunari and the Mages are the devils they don't. Mages can manipulate your mind, twist your will, how could any government official be sure his or her mind wasn't being twisted by that accursed power

 

 

 

 

They are not a random organization, they are still Templars with a long and well known History. Most nobles families keep their kids if they want them anyways, it's the commoners (As usual) who will suffer and the various kingdoms don't listen to the small folk as much as you seem to think.

 

Yes the templars are armed and armored. But their swords will break their armor will rust and they will still have to eat and require to feed the mages (unless they just plan on killing them all) and how exactly are they going to pay for this without being able to dip into the churches coffers? I don't think we can assume anything except what they thought it would work, that doesn't mean they're right (Look at how well the wardens plan in wardens keep went).

 

A member of the watch is trained to fight armed lawbreakers in their city and country. That's what the Templars are now.

 

Common folk don't have the knowledge of the most intimate innerworkings of the Chantry but they aren't going to somehow not know that an entire part of the chantry split off. Do you really think the Chantry itself isn't going to tell people about this?

 

Mages have been around for longer than the templars, they'd probably rather deal with the mages then a sudden military group that thinks it's above the rules of the church. At least the mages aren't heretics.

 

 

The Gray wardens has a long and important history. THey still managed to get booted out of Ferelden for ages. Also where are you getting that most noble families keep their kids anyways? The nobles of Ferelden had to give up their kids (Remember Conner?), Nobles in Kirkwall had to give up their kids (Remember that doink who went around telling people he was a blood mage just to sound cool?). They're not going to be willing to do that now that the Templars are heretical lawbreakers.

[Gtdef]

I think that Templars are going to get destroyed. They will just take with them as many mages as they can. The Inquisition will probably replace them. Also from the gameplay trailer some months ago we saw the "Red Templars" that are enemies of the Inquisition. Even if they are a rogue cell, it shows that Templars do not fare that well and from the destruction the main characters in DA leave in their wake, they won't get better. Good riddance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think that Templars are going to get destroyed. They will just take with them as many mages as they can. The Inquisition will probably replace them. Also from the gameplay trailer some months ago we saw the "Red Templars" that are enemies of the Inquisition. Even if they are a rogue cell, it shows that Templars do not fare that well and from the destruction the main characters in DA leave in their wake, they won't get better. Good riddance.

How so? Just because a few radical Templars turn to the mind-controlling Red Lyrium, it means all Templars are faring terribly? That's like saying because a few radical mages turn to Blood Magic, all Mages will be faring terribly without the Circles. 

[Lord Raijin]

Right there, that is the problem, not that he chose to stand up for himself but that he decided to destroy a building with a lot of symbolic signifiance to the people of the city and kill an old woman who had been keeping meredith from enacting an ROA and was generally beloved by the people of that same city. He knowing started a war and sacrificed the kirkwall circle to do it, every single mage who died did so because Anders refused to find another way. If he wanted to die and free justice all he had to do was go after Meredith, on his own. At least that way he'd only be killing himself.

 

 

Even when Elthina was flat out told what this woman had done, the grand cleric handed her over to the authorities for a proper trial and did not order her death. So why are you surprised that without sufficient evidence she could only demote her? How is that out of character for a kindly old woman who told Sebastian that murdering the men who killed his family was not the right way of doing things? Why do you continually try an absolve Anders of Murder by trying to turn Elthina into something she's not, just as your hated Templar twist all mages into something vile?

Merged with

 

Anders is a terrorist. He is the bad guy. He sacrificed a good woman that worked only to prevent the loss of lives just to goad templars into invoking the ROA. Sure he had his reasons, but every single terrorist has his reasons. He didn't even prepare the mages for what was to come. He didn't care about winning. He didn't care about the lives lost. Only for the opportunity he created for the mages to fight the templars and the "message".

 

The worst part is that he doesn't have a plan. To his eyes it's better to die fighting. So he forces everyone to do just that. And he forces the player to take a side. Personally I side with the mages cause Meredith is as bad as Anders, even worse, and mages need a fighting chance. They are innocents.

 

 

Here we go again with that infamous word "Terrorist". Shouldn't that word be retired and to a dictionary retirement home by now?

Exactly how is Anders is considered a bad guy when Meredith (The main antagonist, lets remember that when we debate the true bad guy in DA2)  had genocide in her unstable red lyrium mind? She wanted to kill every single mage in the circle regardless. It was only matter of time before she totally loses her mind, and does it. In Varric's epilogue he clearly said that Meredith was using excessive amount of pressure on the mages, and the more that they squeeze the tighter she gets. This is the key ingredient for a war to erupted. Elthina just sat there and done nothing.

 

Elthina is an arrogant old woman who thought that she was untouchable. All of her crimes caught up to her and Karma paid her a visit.

 

 

Anders couldn't be more right when he said that their is no compromise. It is an illusion to even think that their would ever be peace. It was around 7 years since the champion came to Kirkwall.

 

Elthina actually believes that Ser Alriks justice was no more than murder after victimizing mages for so long.

 

Screw the Grand Cleric Elthina.

[Nohvarr]

This will be my last comment on the subject for tonight

 

Yes the templars are armed and armored. But their swords will break their armor will rust and they will still have to eat and require to feed the mages (unless they just plan on killing them all) and how exactly are they going to pay for this without being able to dip into the churches coffers? I don't think we can assume anything except what they thought it would work, that doesn't mean they're right (Look at how well the wardens plan in wardens keep went).

 

We also can't assume they walked away from the church with nothing or that they have no other sources of income.

 

A member of the watch is trained to fight armed lawbreakers in their city and country. That's what the Templars are now.

 

I think you are putting far to much confidence in the local watch. Fighting bandits is one thing, trained Templars is something else entirely.

 

Common folk don't have the knowledge of the most intimate innerworkings of the Chantry but they aren't going to somehow not know that an entire part of the chantry split off. Do you really think the Chantry itself isn't going to tell people about this?

 

But how many of those same commoners will agree with the Templars or decide it's simply easier to stay out of their way and give them what they want?

 

Mages have been around for longer than the templars, they'd probably rather deal with the mages then a sudden military group that thinks it's above the rules of the church. At least the mages aren't heretics.

 

This is just wishful thinking. Between Tevinter, rogue mages, and good old fashioned human fear I think commoners are more likely to side with the Templar than they are the mages.

 

The Gray wardens has a long and important history. THey still managed to get booted out of Ferelden for ages. Also where are you getting that most noble families keep their kids anyways? The nobles of Ferelden had to give up their kids (Remember Conner?), Nobles in Kirkwall had to give up their kids (Remember that doink who went around telling people he was a blood mage just to sound cool?). They're not going to be willing to do that now that the Templars are heretical lawbreakers.

 

My mistake I was thinking of Tevinter. Truth be told, the Templars are visibly more necessary than Grey Wardens. Wardens only become useful during a blight in the minds of many. Dangerous mages, however are a constant threat and one the Templars are often seen solving.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Seriously, Lord Raijin. If you aren't here to discuss whether we can support the Chantry, please go away. You're just trolling at this point. 

[wolfhowwl]

<snip>

 

Daily Reminder:

 

[Gtdef]

How so? Just because a few radical Templars turn to the mind-controlling Red Lyrium, it means all Templars are faring terribly? That's like saying because a few radical mages turn to Blood Magic, all Mages will be faring terribly without the Circles. 

 

It's not really the same. A blood mage at most can create a commotion. The Red Templars are attacking an armed fortress. They will need numbers for that, so I'm thinking more of a schism rather than few radical templars. I don't think that Templars as a whole will fare well after going on their own and the fact that they have multiple factions inside their ranks will just speed up the process.

[Lord Raijin]

What's this? There's a "true bad guy" in DA2 now?

 

The game ends when you defeat Meredith so yeah, Shes the true "bad guy" in the series.

Seriously, Lord Raijin. If you aren't here to discuss whether we can support the Chantry, please go away. You're just trolling at this point. 

Not trolling. Just disapprove of supporting the Chantry. I would lead my army of mages, and burn each Chantry building down to the ground if I could, and then after words have a nice BBQ with my mage friends.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's not really the same. A blood mage at most can create a commotion. The Red Templars are attacking an armed fortress. They will need numbers for that, so I'm thinking more of a schism rather than few radical templars. I don't think that Templars as a whole will fare well after going on their own and the fact that they have multiple factions inside their ranks will just speed up the process.

Um, it was because of a few Blood mages that the disaster at the Ferelden Circle happened. The disaster in Blackmarsh was caused by one. And let's not forget the good old Blights were caused by a few blood mages. 

And I meant few as in "a small percentage". If 1 out of say 20 Templars become Red Templars, then they are a few Templars. 

They have three factions: Those who stayed loyal to the Chantry(will probably become the Inquisition), those who broke away but still follow their creed, and then the Red Templars. The Mages are more divided than that by their Fraternities. 

[Lord Raijin]

Daily Reminder:

 

I actually laughed at that graphic, to be quite honest with you.

[Chari]

The game ends when you defeat Meredith so yeah, Shes the true "bad guy" in the series.
Not trolling. Just disapprove of supporting the Chantry. I would lead my army of mages, and burn each Chantry building down to the ground if I could, and then after words have a nice BBQ with my mage friends.

Like we give a flying damn about your biased opinion and inability to listen to other opinions
Don't like us supporters of chantry - leave. No one is holding you here

[Eveangaline]

This will be my last comment on the subject for tonight

 

 

 

 

We also can't assume they walked away from the church with nothing or that they have no other sources of income.

 

 

 

 

I think you are putting far to much confidence in the local watch. Fighting bandits is one thing, trained Templars is something else entirely.

 

 

 

 

But how many of those same commoners will agree with the Templars or decide it's simply easier to stay out of their way and give them what they want?

 

 

 

 

This is just wishful thinking. Between Tevinter, rogue mages, and good old fashioned human fear I think commoners are more likely to side with the Templar than they are the mages.

 

 

 

 

My mistake I was thinking of Tevinter. Truth be told, the Templars are visibly more necessary than Grey Wardens. Wardens only become useful during a blight in the minds of many. Dangerous mages, however are a constant threat and one the Templars are often seen solving.

 

We can't assume they had a better plan than "The maker will provide, and the people will surely support us over the chantry!"

 

Yes. Bandits are much more numerous in number and probably have less trouble recruiting new members than a bunch of zealots who said FU to the church.

 

They'll probably treat them similar to bandits. Complain to the local authorities and church and hope they deal with these templars.

 

Except the commoners will know mages. Mages will be kids who were born in their town. Mages will be scared hungry looking people who flee through them. We've run into plenty of people willing to hide mages or help them run and that's just with the normal templars. Templars who bucked the word of God that is the divine? Yeah, getting even less trust. Also when you say between tevinter- tevinter mages probably aren't effecting anyones opinions of mages they meet. One reason people do hate Tevinter (Aside from the slavery and them having owned large parts of the continent before) is because they are seperate from the normal chantry and have their own weird semi-andrastian-but-not-subject-to-the-divine system. Just like the new templars.

 

The Grey wardens also fight an enemy that is unanimously evil and hated by everyone and got booted out. Templars, for all some people will see them as demon fighters, others will see them as the people that take children away. That mages run away from because of their harshness. Mages aren't anywhere near as hated as the blight and yet the people who fight the blight managed to get their butts kicked out by Ferelden. The Templars are on a much more rocky area. Without the church, they either have to submit to the laws of the countries they are working in and work out with the rulers and nobility how they are going to handle mages with those rulers, or their organization is screwed. Even the gray wardens had to make treaties with legal bodies.

 

Also seriously what do you think is going to happen when templars with no church backing try to take noble mage children? I don't see it ending well for the Templars.

[Nohvarr]

I take it back, this is the last thing I will say.

Not trolling. Just disapprove of supporting the Chantry. I would lead my army of mages, and burn each Chantry building down to the ground if I could, and then after words have a nice BBQ with my mage friends.

Which makes you just as bad as you claim the Templars are in my book, deciding that since you can't control it, you'll just destroy it.

 

I can't WAIT to see how you deal with Viv since she supports the Circle system.

[Lord Raijin]

Like we give a flying damn about your biased opinion and inability to listen to other opinions
Don't like us supporters of chantry - leave. No one is holding you here

And I don't give a flying sword about your strong biased opinion about how we should all support the Chantry. The hatred for mages flows through your blood doesn't it? Keep the hate flowing Chantry priest Go hide inside your chantry building until retribution day finally arrives when you priest will become our servitudes. Just remember that I like my robes to be ironed and my boots shined up.