532 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom.

 

True. I see it happening on your post an dozen times over.

[DKJaigen]

They are an extremely powerful private army in a time of war. That means the last thing they'll be wanting for is jobs and money.
 

 

They still need money to fund there campaign. And i have some doubts about their military skills. they are definitely trained and well equipped but they do not come across the disciplined elite fighting force of ancient times.

[Nohvarr]

They still need money to fund there campaign. And i have some doubts about their military skills. they are definitely trained and well equipped but they do not come across the disciplined elite fighting force of ancient times.

He just said they can get that money by hiring themselves out to any number of nations/organizations that require men at arms during this time of war. Also....they are an elite fighting force, at least according to DA:O & 2.

[DKJaigen]

He just said they can get that money by hiring themselves out to any number of nations/organizations that require men at arms during this time of war. Also....they are an elite fighting force, at least according to DA:O & 2.

 

From what i have seen from the templars im not impressed. And according to who? Chevaliers now those are elite forces! Showing tactics skills and understanding of their enemy. Also hiring themselves out removes a large amount of manpower from fighting mages. Also do mercenary companies or even nations want to be associated with the templars?

 

Are the templars even suited for this kind of warfare?

[Captain_Harkness]

As I said before. It does not matter how dangerous someone is. It is immoral to infringe on their rights in any way based on a possibility. If someone does something wrong, you punish them, if not you leave them the hell alone.

 

The fact is that mages have been oppressed. Whether the reasoning for doing so was right or wrong they are forced to live in a prison with limited freedoms. No movement for a peoples rights is smooth and free of turmoil. Ultimately Anders is a terrorist and even though I am pro mage and anti chantry, I can still recognize it was not a moral act.

 

What I say next will not be very popular with you pro chantry folks. What Anders did was wrong, but it was necessary. There are factions within both the mages and the chantry that have many competing opinions and because of this every time there is a chance for change it is stopped. In asunder it was because of Wynne that that the college of enchanters voted against separation from the chantry. I see Elthina and Wynne as two sides of the same coin. They both try to restrain their more radical colleagues and maintain the status quo. In Elthinas case I would argue she ignored the horrible things the Templar did while Wynne always condemned mages who crossed the line into blood magic. With people like Wynne and Elthina on both sides nothing productive would ever happen. There needed to be a trigger that forced action on both sides. With Elthinas murder, Meredith actions against the circle of Kirkwall and Lamberts separation of the Templar order from chantry there is no chance of things continuing as they were.

 

In DA:I I will hold everyone accountable. If I find a Templar murdering mages he will be executed. If I find a mage using blood magic to murder innocents then I will execute him. If I find chantry officials who have committed crimes I will hold them responsible. I will not condemn them without cause. I will see Mages free whatever the cost. If the Chantry stands in the way, they will submit to the inquisition or face the consequences.

[Jaison1986]

As I said before. It does not matter how dangerous someone is. It is immoral to infringe on their rights in any way based on a possibility. If someone does something wrong, you punish them, if not you leave them the hell alone.

 

The fact is that mages have been oppressed. Whether the reasoning for doing so was right or wrong they are forced to live in a prison with limited freedoms. No movement for a peoples rights is smooth and free of turmoil. Ultimately Anders is a terrorist and even though I am pro mage and anti chantry, I can still recognize it was not a moral act.

 

What I say next will not be very popular with you pro chantry folks. What Anders did was wrong, but it was necessary. There are factions within both the mages and the chantry that have many competing opinions and because of this every time there is a chance for change it is stopped. In asunder it was because of Wynne that that the college of enchanters voted against separation from the chantry. I see Elthina and Wynne as two sides of the same coin. They both try to restrain their more radical colleagues and maintain the status quo. In Elthinas case I would argue she ignored the horrible things the Templar did while Wynne always condemned mages who crossed the line into blood magic. With people like Wynne and Elthina on both sides nothing productive would ever happen. There needed to be a trigger that forced action on both sides. With Elthinas murder, Meredith actions against the circle of Kirkwall and Lamberts separation of the Templar order from chantry there is no chance of things continuing as they were.

 

In DA:I I will hold everyone accountable. If I find a Templar murdering mages he will be executed. If I find a mage using blood magic to murder innocents then I will execute him. If I find chantry officials who have committed crimes I will hold them responsible. I will not condemn them without cause. I will see Mages free whatever the cost. If the Chantry stands in the way, they will submit to the inquisition or face the consequences.

 

That's pretty much my views on the matter. I did not support what Anders did. Had that explosion just killed Chantry members, I wouldn't give two rats about it, but more then just Chantry members were killed that day. How many civilians were crushed an killed by the debris? Not to mention the mages suffered for what Anders did. And I killed him for that.

[Nohvarr]

 

What I say next will not be very popular with you pro chantry folks. What Anders did was wrong, but it was necessary.

No it wasn't, because Asunder makes it clear that his actions were condemned by the Council of mages and did not lead to the rebellion he hoped for in the end. All he managed to accomplish was to get a Circle of Mages killed by an Knight-Commander driven insane by Red Lyrium.

 

Since the events that lead to the Mages leaving the Chantry had little to do with Kirkwall and actually came out of a discovery that it was possible to reverse Tranquillity, all Anders actually had to do was wait a few more years and the mages would've left on their own.

 

 

 

Had that explosion just killed Chantry members, I wouldn't give two rats about it, but more then just Chantry members were killed that day.

 

It's good to know that the very people who were trying to maintain peace and would've tried to stop Mages and Templars from killing one another are valued so little by those so determined to justify the actions of a monster. Seriously this attitude towards the Chantry is no better than that of the Templars who want to hunt down all mages.

[Jaison1986]

 

It's good to know that the very people who were trying to maintain peace and would've tried to stop Mages and Templars from killing one another are valued so little by those so determined to justify the actions of a monster. Seriously this attitude towards the Chantry is no better than that of the Templars who want to hunt down all mages.

 

If you mean mantaining peace by allowing templars to commit unhuman abuses on the mages (wich the members of the chantry gleefuly ignore). I get exactly were you are coming from. "So long as an minority is suffering all is good right? So long as it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't matter" Is that about right? I wonder if you would support such "peace" if it came at the cost of your never ending suffering.

[drake heath]

I think the wrong things are being talked about.

 

The real issue is just how hammy can I get with supporting the Chantry?

 

Like, straight up 40k style "Purge the Wicked with Holy Fire in the Emperor's Name"? Or something less fun?

[MisterJB]

As I said before. It does not matter how dangerous someone is. It is immoral to infringe on their rights in any way based on a possibility. If someone does something wrong, you punish them, if not you leave them the hell alone.

Do you realize that is not how our world today works?

Considering that you have access to a computer and that you have enough leisure time to post in the Bioware Forums, I'm going to assume you live in the First World. 

Our societies today infringe upon our rights every single day. In fact, that is the exact purpose of the legal system: to restrict the freedoms of people based on the possibility that we might do something wrong because we are dangerous by nature.

 

From the moment we are born, we are subjected to a set of rules that tells us where we can and can't go, how we can and can not act, what we can and can not buy. These rules exist because humans are, by nature, dangerous. We are capable of bringing harm to each other and thus, our freedoms are restricted to help ensure that we do not. 

And these rules apply to all people, not just who have given evidence of being harmful.

 

Do you understand now: the only difference the restrictions placed upon mages differ from the restrictions placed upon normal people is that theirs are more harsh. And why are theirs more harsh? Because, unlike normal people, mages can summon fireballs, conjure demons, control minds, etc.

 

If you are against one set of rules applying to normals and another set applying to mages, whatever (yawn) to each his own game.

I, for one, would prefer preventing disasters over picking up the pieces afterwards.

 

But this whole notion that we simply CAN'T infringe upon other's freedoms unless they do something wrong has no basis in reality whatsoever; it is something that happens to mages, it is something that happens to normals, it is something that happens in Thedas, it is something that happens on Earth, it is something that happens to me, it is something that happens to you.

 

Are you for destroying the legal system and meting out popular justice?

[The Elder King]

As shown with other similar threads, I think there'll be a lot of people in both sides that will be disappointed at how DAI will portray the mage-templar war, and the possible (if the war will end, which I personally doubt) outcomes.

[Nohvarr]

If you mean mantaining peace by allowing templars to commit unhuman abuses on the mages

No, I mean maintaing peace by keeping the Templars from enacting a Tranquil solution on all mages, by rejecting merediths desire for an ROA, by refusing to take the Templars side in the conflict and thus granting them support they could ride to even harsher actions, and by encouragine the two sides to work out their differences. Then the divine argues for the better treatment of mages and funds research into undoing Tranquility.

 

Those are the lives your statement values so little, people trying to do the right thing for everyone.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Anders actions were necessary, they showed normal people why mages are dangerous & need to be locked up. Hopefully will be able to crush their rebellion & put them back were they belong, they had little right to complain anyway when their standard of living was much higher then the regular peasant population.

[Captain_Harkness]

Do you realize that is not how our world today works?

Considering that you have access to a computer and that you have enough leisure time to post in the Bioware Forums, I'm going to assume you live in the First World. 

Our societies today infringe upon our rights every single day. In fact, that is the exact purpose of the legal system: to restrict the freedoms of people based on the possibility that we might do something wrong because we are dangerous by nature.

 

From the moment we are born, we are subjected to a set of rules that tells us where we can and can't go, how we can and can not act, what we can and can not buy. These rules exist because humans are, by nature, dangerous. We are capable of bringing harm to each other and thus, our freedoms are restricted to help ensure that we do not. 

And these rules apply to all people, not just who have given evidence of being harmful.

 

Do you understand now: the only difference the restrictions placed upon mages differ from the restrictions placed upon normal people is that theirs are more harsh. And why are theirs more harsh? Because, unlike normal people, mages can summon fireballs, conjure demons, control minds, etc.

 

If you are against one set of rules applying to normals and another set applying to mages, whatever (yawn) to each his own game.

I, for one, would prefer preventing disasters over picking up the pieces afterwards.

 

But this whole notion that we simply CAN'T infringe upon other's freedoms unless they do something wrong has no basis in reality whatsoever; it is something that happens to mages, it is something that happens to normals, it is something that happens in Thedas, it is something that happens on Earth, it is something that happens to me, it is something that happens to you.

 

Are you for destroying the legal system and meting out popular justice?

I can concede that we all have out freedom infringed on to a certain degree. The problem is that their is a huge difference between what a normal citizen and a mage experiences. You can't have mages subject to different ones just because of their danger. I don't see people in jail just because they own a rifle or know how to make a grenade. So how come you find it ok for a mage to be imprisoned without cause?

[AkiKishi]

We routinely lock people up who are considered a danger. What we don't do is keep them in prison and then let them out when we need them to fight for us. That's the unique part of the situation with the mages where you won't find much in the way of real life overlap. 

 

Probably closest approximation you will get http://marvel.com/universe/Civil_War

[DKJaigen]

Do you understand now: the only difference the restrictions placed upon mages differ from the restrictions placed upon normal people is that theirs are more harsh. And why are theirs more harsh? Because, unlike normal people, mages can summon fireballs, conjure demons, control minds, etc.

 

Nope we dont we . We have soldiers who the only ones capable of handling military tech that is 1000X more deadly then whatever mages can produce . We dont limit their rights either.

[AkiKishi]

Nope we dont we . We have soldiers who the only ones capable of handling military tech that is 1000X more deadly then whatever mages can produce . We dont limit their rights either.

 

But we do limit their access. Only super heroes really offer anything similar to the situation of a mages powers.

[DKJaigen]

But we do limit their access. Only super heroes really offer anything similar to the situation of a mages powers.

 

Nope we are given far more access . Soldiers and for that matter are put under greater scrutiny however. Even by todays standards superhero's would be mild nuisance at best compared to the latest military hardware.

[Mistic]

But we do limit their access. Only super heroes really offer anything similar to the situation of a mages powers.

 

And the Jedi/Sith in Star Wars. In fact, they ended up with a very nice solution: the Jedi train, teach and police themselves, while becoming peacekeepers for the Government. Those who abuse their powers and get drunk on the Dark Side are labelled as "Sith" and, thus, aren't considered "good Jedi" anymore and are open for persecution.

[AkiKishi]

Nope we are given far more access . Soldiers and for that matter are put under greater scrutiny however. Even by todays standards superhero's would be mild nuisance at best compared to the latest military hardware.

 

That's what I meant by limiting their access. They don't get to walk off base carrying assault rifles and drive tanks home. Their "power" is entirely dependent on their equipment which would be the same for everyone. Those rules don't apply to mages, or super heroes. 

 

So while a soldier could launch a nuke in theory. In practice there are so many checks and balances to make it almost impossible without being authorised. 

[DKJaigen]

No, I mean maintaing peace by keeping the Templars from enacting a Tranquil solution on all mages, by rejecting merediths desire for an ROA, by refusing to take the Templars side in the conflict and thus granting them support they could ride to even harsher actions, and by encouragine the two sides to work out their differences. Then the divine argues for the better treatment of mages and funds research into undoing Tranquility.

 

Those are the lives your statement values so little, people trying to do the right thing for everyone.

 

 

Your problem is that the chantry and the templars give a damn about the mages. they dont and thats why i have no problem with anders bombing the chantry. If i was a mage and i was told that i would be for the rest of my life segregated form the rest of society to benefit the chantry and allowed no social growth so that i may not influence the world outside the circle all the while being a slave soldier for the chantry that benefits from my works. i would likely cross every single law in the Geneva convention to wipe out the chantry and the templars.

[AkiKishi]

And the Jedi/Sith in Star Wars. In fact, they ended up with a very nice solution: the Jedi train, teach and police themselves, while becoming peacekeepers for the Government. Those who abuse their powers and get drunk on the Dark Side are labelled as "Sith" and, thus, aren't considered "good Jedi" anymore and are open for persecution.

 

Same thing happened with the Super Hero Registration act. The difference is the various nations still want to use the mages when it suits them.And they can't do that unless they have some means of control. 

 

Like the Jedi the mages would have to be above petty concerns like nationhood to make that viable.

[DKJaigen]

That's what I meant by limiting their access. They don't get to walk off base carrying assault rifles and drive tanks home. Their "power" is entirely dependent on their equipment which would be the same for everyone. Those rules don't apply to mages, or super heroes. 

 

So while a soldier could launch a nuke in theory. In practice there are so many checks and balances to make it almost impossible without being authorised. 

 

anything beyond ABC weapons and you would be surprised how much access their is.

[AkiKishi]

anything beyond ABC weapons and you would be surprised how much access their is.

 

Even if I accepted that, it does not alter that a soldier is no different from anyone else. There is nothing inherently powerful about them. You won't find anything in the real world that equates to a mage and the potential danger they present.

[DKJaigen]

Even if I accepted that, it does not alter that a soldier is no different from anyone else. There is nothing inherently powerful about them. You won't find anything in the real world that equates to a mage and the potential danger they present.

 

Your wrong about the last part as well. For the record i believe the circle is necessary. but after the harrowing they should not be locked up they should use their powers for the benefit not only for themselves but also others. if people say mages remain a danger afterwards i will say they are full of **** as the tevinter imperium still stands the dalish still exist as well as the barbarian tribes.

 

See how much influence Anders wields by healing sicj kirkwallers , do you think the chantry likes that?