131 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

If you're going to call Anders out for being a mass murderer, then everybody else is too. They've slaughtered literally hundreds of people each. You're seriously going to get on his ass for taking out a few extra in the process of demolishing a building?

 

Anders is more of a terrorist than "mass murderer" in my opinion.  He kills many people indiscriminately because of his convictions and for the "greater cause".  I have a bit of an issue with him for this reason, but he's the current LI in my most recent playthrough because I think it makes that scene at the end (and the decision that it prompts) more meaningful and difficult.  When I romance Fenris, I have no issues with telling Anders to kick rocks.  But if he's my partner and lives with me, I feel like I can't just send him away, but I also don't support his decision.  It's a legitimately difficult choice for me to make.

 

Zarathiel Ninja.....

[Maria Caliban]

I expect Cassandra will be a good LI. I have no idea what to expect from Cullen.
 

I don't think you're using the word "jerk" right. Merrill and Zevran, for example, are pretty nice in terms of how they treat you. So is Isabella. This is more about moral compass and actions.

If she used the word evil to describe them, we'd get a ten page debate on whether or not unrepentant assassins and mass murdering terrorists are evil.

Jerk works fine to characterize them without starting up the tired debate.

Meh.

Morrigan can end up caring greatly about the warden despite manipulating him, she almost cries in a convo. She's being raised by Flemeth to see love as weakness, can you really blame her for being cold at times?

Which has nothing to do with the point the OP was trying to make. Why she's a ***** is irreverent to not wanting to romance a *****.

[Mockingword]

Gameplay/story segregation. Also, in most cases, self defense. Anders blew up a building with a bunch of innocent people in it just to prove a point.

 

That's called terrorism.

Pfft.

 

If that's your idea of "innocent", I guess.

 

"Terrorism" is such a meaningless term now. People just slap it on to any act they dislike, because the emotional weight of it discourages any genuine debate about the morality of the action.

[Vapaa]

"Terrorism" is such a meaningless term now. People just slap it on to any act they dislike, because the emotional weight of it discourages any genuine debate about the morality of the action.

"Terrorism: The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims" (Oxford dictionary)

He blew up the Chantry to provoke the conflict and force mage emancipation, that’s a political goal and therefore that’s terrorism.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Dragon Age 2:

 

Fenris: bastard and Danarius sl*t

 

Isabela: bastard and sl*t

 

Merrill: only self defence. good person

 

Anders: neutral. mostly good(killing a nazi Templars and their priestes like Elthina is a good thing)

 

 

Origins:

 

Zevran: bastard and sl*t

 

Morrigan: neutral

 

Leliana: bastard and sl*t.

 

Alistair: good person

 

 

Total Count:

Bastards: 4

Neutral: 2

Good: 2

 

Inquisition

 

Cullen: bastard

 

Cassandra: neutral. mostly bastard

 

not confirmed but...

 

Solas: good or mostly good

 

Sera: good or mostly good

 

Dorian: neutral

[Rowe]

Anders is more of a terrorist than "mass murderer" in my opinion.  He kills many people indiscriminately because of his convictions and for the "greater cause".  I have a bit of an issue with him for this reason, but he's the current LI in my most recent playthrough because I think it makes that scene at the end (and the decision that it prompts) more meaningful and difficult.  When I romance Fenris, I have no issues with telling Anders to kick rocks.  But if he's my partner and lives with me, I feel like I can't just send him away, but I also don't support his decision.  It's a legitimately difficult choice for me to make.

 

Zarathiel Ninja.....

 

I romanced Anders once, but I didn't enjoy his romance nearly as much as Fenris because he becomes so obsessed with the "cause of the mages." His relationship with you comes secondary to his cause. Once your character finally gets with Fenris, it's clear that you're the most important thing to him (and plus you make out much more and I'm that shallow!). I could not get past Anders murdering everyone in the Chantry, I either bump him off or send him away. He's an extremist and he's very dedicated to his cause with not thought to the consequences (there could have been some mages in the Chantry). He's really the only one in my eyes that's unredeemable at the end.   

[wolfhowwl]

 

Dragon Age 2:

 

Fenris: bastard and Danarius sl*t

 

That's a rather twisted way to refer to a victim of sexual abuse.

[Mockingword]

"Terrorism: The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims" (Oxford dictionary)

He blew the Chantry to provoke the conflict and force mage emancipation, that’s a political goal and therefore that’s terrorism.

Again, I say: Pffft.

 

Who decides when violence is "unofficial" or "unauthorized"? The people in power do. Who is in power in Thedas during the events of DA2? Why, the Chantry is! They make the laws regarding mages, and they decide when magical violence is "authorized".

 

No authority is ever going to agree that an act of violence perpetrated against itself was "legitimate". That would be dumb.

 

Of course Anders' action was "unauthorized", how's he supposed to authorize it? Like, if he had just submitted a form in triplicate, the Chantry would be totally cool with it?  It may not have been "legitimate", but it's the only recourse he or any mage actually has. If I lived in a world where I and everyone like me could be killed on a whim, I wouldn't pull my punches either.

[Asdrubael Vect]

That's a rather twisted way to refer to a victim of sexual abuse.

as his sister said he was not and he wanted it...at least before his memory was erased and Qunari "Fog Warriors" education but i still not believe in many bullsh*t what he was talking and we have much proofs that he was lied

[Elanor]

Pfft.

 

If that's your idea of "innocent", I guess.

 

"Terrorism" is such a meaningless term now. People just slap it on to any act they dislike, because the emotional weight of it discourages any genuine debate about the morality of the action.

In that building civilian people were praying. I think that could be called innocent.

[naddaya]

he was not and he wanted it...at least before his memory was erased but i still not believe in many **** what he was talking and we have much proofs that he was lied

What the ****.
*backs away slowly*

[Mockingword]

(there could have been some mages in the Chantry)

 

 

Um, no? Mages aren't allowed outside of the Gallows, and if an apostate is frequently hanging around the Chantry, then that's just natural selection at work.

[Mockingword]

In that building civilian people were praying. I think that could be called innocent.

Lol, no, the only people shown inside at the time are Elthina and two templars.

 

And civilian =/= "innocent" or "good" or any other cutesy words.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Anders blow the Chantry with Elthina and high priests who was a Templars HQ who have authority and who was a reason of all sh*t what Orlais Chantry Templars do in Kirkwal for 10 years what mages and nobles does not like

[Vapaa]

Again, I say: Pffft.
 
Who decides when violence is "unofficial" or "unauthorized"? The people in power do. Who is in power in Thedas during the events of DA2? Why, the Chantry is! They make the laws regarding mages, and they decide when magical violence is "authorized".
 
No authority is ever going to agree that an act of violence perpetrated against itself was "legitimate". That would be dumb.
 
Of course Anders' action was "unauthorized", how's he supposed to authorize it? Like, if he had just submitted a form in triplicate, the Chantry would be totally cool with it?  It may not have been "legitimate", but it's the only recourse he or any mage actually has. If I lived in a world where I and everyone like me could be killed on a whim, I wouldn't pull my punches either.

Nowhere did I (or Oxford) ever use the word "legitimate" the key points of terrorism are illegality, violence and political goals, and Anders’s action meets those three points.

[Maclimes]

OP here, and wow, sorry. "Jerk" was probably the wrong word to use. I'll give you that. I was trying to keep the title short, and my concept is a little vague. I'm having trouble putting it in to words. Maybe some of you who are more articulate could help me express my point better (if I can just explain what it is). I think I'm trying to say some variation on the word "negative".

 

Let me try it this way:

 

I remember a lot of people lamenting that you couldn't romance Bethany.

 

All talk of brother/sister stuff aside, I see their point. Why? Because she's not a morally grey figure. She's genuinely kind, and doesn't resort to dark or desperate methods in her attempts to live a normal life. When the Templar come for her, she doesn't cut her self, spraying blood, and turning in to an abomination (She may be the only mage in the game who doesn't do so in that situation). She's at heart a "good" person.

 

Alistair is loyal and noble, even if a bit of a buffoon. He genuinely does what is right, and abhors unnecessary death. He's kind to those in need, aggressive against those who genuinely deserve it, sad when good people get hurt, and proud of his friends.

 

Zevran, on the other hand, is not a nice person. He's just nice to YOU (after he fails to KILL you, anyway). He is more than willing to kill someone, and happily. And he doesn't care if they deserve it or not. Sure, you can credit his horrible upbringing that turned him into a monster. But it doesn't change the fact that he IS a monster (even if a well-spoken and friendly one).

 

I'm not sure if I am getting my thoughts across correctly.

 

But I DO thoroughly enjoy these romances with the "darker" characters, such as Morrigan and Fenris. But I ALSO enjoy the relationships with more light-hearted characters as well. I just want more variety, I guess.

[daveliam]

 

Who decides when violence is "unofficial" or "unauthorized"? The people in power do. Who is in power in Thedas during the events of DA2? Why, the Chantry is! They make the laws regarding mages, and they decide when magical violence is "authorized".

 

No authority is ever going to agree that an act of violence perpetrated against itself was "legitimate". That would be dumb.

 

Anders claimed to be representing the mages.  The "official" "authority" for the mages was Orsino.  If Orsino had authorized his actions, then it wouldn't have been an act of terrorism.  It would have been an official act of rebellion from the mages against the chantry.

 

When Meredith, the "official" "authority" of the templars, then attacked the mages, it was not an act of terrorism because the person authorizing it had the official authority to do so.

[Mockingword]

Nowhere did I (or Oxford) ever use the word "legitimate" the key points of terrorism are illegality, violence and political goals, and Anders’s action meets those three points.

"I can't actually debate your point, so I'm going to quibble over synonyms."

[Asdrubael Vect]

Bethany is stupid but this "go with templars in Circle" situation was because devs cut many content with Hawke vs Templars when we kill Templars who found that he or his sister is a mage

[Zarathiel]

Pfft.

 

If that's your idea of "innocent", I guess.

 

"Terrorism" is such a meaningless term now. People just slap it on to any act they dislike, because the emotional weight of it discourages any genuine debate about the morality of the action.

 

It's not Anders' morality I question. Mages deserve to be free. I would have supported him 100% if he'd gone after Meredith and the templars.

 

Its his cowardice I take issue with. He chose an easy target filled with people who weren't directly involved with the conflict. That's what makes him a terrorist, because, imo, terrorists are primarily cowards.

[Mockingword]

Anders claimed to be representing the mages.  The "official" "authority" for the mages was Orsino.  If Orsino had authorized his actions, then it wouldn't have been an act of terrorism.  It would have been an official act of rebellion from the mages against the chantry.

 

When Meredith, the "official" "authority" of the templars, then attacked the mages, it was not an act of terrorism because the person authorizing it had the official authority to do so.

When does Anders say any such thing? Also, Orsino has no such power. As a Circle Mage, he's subservient to the Chantry, as is Fiona. Her decision to separate from the Chantry would've been an act of "terrorism" by your standards, except that the Divine was willing to allow it. Because it's the Chantry that decides what mages are allowed to do, not other mages.

 

Also, my entire argument is that arguing on a basis of who has "authority" is ****** stupid. So, congrats on missing the point, I guess?

 

Like, I'm sure you of all people are aware that simply being in a position of "authority" has no actual bearing on the entirely subjective morality of one's position.

[naddaya]

OP here, and wow, sorry. "Jerk" was probably the wrong word to use. I'll give you that. I was trying to keep the title short, and my concept is a little vague. I'm having trouble putting it in to words. Maybe some of you who are more articulate could help me express my point better (if I can just explain what it is). I think I'm trying to say some variation on the word "negative".
 
Let me try it this way:
 
I remember a lot of people lamenting that you couldn't romance Bethany.
 
All talk of brother/sister stuff aside, I see their point. Why? Because she's not a morally grey figure. She's genuinely kind, and doesn't resort to dark or desperate methods in her attempts to live a normal life. When the Templar come for her, she doesn't cut her self, spraying blood, and turning in to an abomination (She may be the only mage in the game who doesn't do so in that situation). She's at heart a "good" person.
 
Alistair is loyal and noble, even if a bit of a buffoon. He genuinely does what is right, and abhors unnecessary death. He's kind to those in need, aggressive against those who genuinely deserve it, sad when good people get hurt, and proud of his friends.
 
Zevran, on the other hand, is not a nice person. He's just nice to YOU (after he fails to KILL you, anyway). He is more than willing to kill someone, and happily. And he doesn't care if they deserve it or not. Sure, you can credit his horrible upbringing that turned him into a monster. But it doesn't change the fact that he IS a monster (even if a well-spoken and friendly one).
 
I'm not sure if I am getting my thoughts across correctly.
 
But I DO thoroughly enjoy these romances with the "darker" characters, such as Morrigan and Fenris. But I ALSO enjoy the relationships with more light-hearted characters as well. I just want more variety, I guess.

Alistair? The same judgemental ****** who refuses responsability in redcliff and then chews you out because you made a choice that could make him look bad in front of eamon? The same guy who preaches about duty all the time and then walks away from the blight if you refuse to kill a man who no longer poses a threat? Alright then.

[Mockingword]

It's not Anders' morality I question. Mages deserve to be free. I would have supported him 100% if he'd gone after Meredith and the templars.

 

Its his cowardice I take issue with. He chose an easy target filled with people who weren't directly involved with the conflict. That's what makes him a terrorist, because, imo, terrorists are primarily cowards.

The Chantry is not directly involved in the conflict?

 

The Chantry is not directly involved in the conflict?

[EkhidnaDrakaina]

as his sister said he was not and he wanted it...at least before his memory was erased and Qunari "Fog Warriors" education but i still not believe in many bullsh*t what he was talking and we have much proofs that he was lied

According to Varania, Fenris submitted to the Lyrium Ritual in exchange for the freedom of his family. This is what he wanted and competed for, not the abuse and mistreatment that came with it. When his memory was wiped, he had forgotten the deal he had made, where he came from, and the reason for all of it. When left with the Fog Warriors, their way of life began to make him ponder and question his own. Especially once after Danarius made him kill them.