78 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

2) Bioware decided to kill her off in ME3. 

 

Making the creature into a Banshee was an excellent gameplay and story decision, but that's my opinion. 

[KainD]

Making the creature into a Banshee was an excellent gameplay and story decision, but that's my opinion. 

 

Yeah, but she was my friend. How would you like it if for example Garrus was turned into a husk without chances of preventing it? 

[AresKeith]

Yeah, but she was my friend. How would you like it if for example Garrus was turned into a husk without chances of preventing it? 

 

That's the consequence of choosing  a murderous space vampire

[KainD]

That's the consequence of choosing  a murderous space vampire

 

Yeah, she is killed by the plot, if you don't kill her yourself, quite the consequence... Just sad. 

[General TSAR]

Yeah, but she was my friend. How would you like it if for example Garrus was turned into a husk without chances of preventing it? 

I would accept it, my Shep would silently whisper "I love you Bro," and blow Marauder Garrus's head off.

 

Hell they could have turned Tali into a Reaper Sapper and I would have accepted it and killed her followed by my canon Shep breaking every damn thing in his cabin.

[Maria Caliban]

There is a huge difference between just plain killing, and mutilation and abuse.

What, you don't think it's strange that you can kill a bandit that attacks you but the game doesn't let you skin him alive or boil her in oil? Naturally, this would be part of a graphic cutscene* or maybe a minigame. It's just odd that the game lets you defend yourself but BioWare isn't willing to let the PC dish out horrific abuses at every turn.


*Pun!

[KainD]

I would accept it, my Shep would silently whisper "I love you Bro," and blow Marauder Garrus's head off.

 

Hell they could have turned Tali into a Reaper Sapper and I would have accepted it and killed her followed by my canon Shep breaking every damn thing in his cabin.

 

I wasn't given a chance to break everything in my cabin.. Or to whisper something nice to her. 

[General TSAR]

I wasn't given a chance to break everything in my cabin.. Or to whisper something nice to her. 

That's because it's fanfiction, not canon. 

 

Hence the space vampire will always die, good riddance to bad rubbish.

[TKavatar]

What, you don't think it's strange that you can kill a bandit that attacks you but the game doesn't let you skin him alive or boil her in oil? Naturally, this would be part of a graphic cutscene* or maybe a minigame. It's just odd that the game lets you defend yourself but BioWare isn't willing to let the PC dish out horrific abuses at every turn.*Pun!

Where did I say I wanted a graphic cutscene with the Inquisitor gouging someone's eyes out? Don't put words in my mouth now. And you're conveniently forgetting all those times where you can kill innocent people in cold blood; the prisoner at Ostagar, that wounded soldier, Brother Genetivi, and so on. Why isn't that forbidden?

[In Exile]

You can end someone's life with little to no consequence but somehow torture isn't acceptable? Thedas isn't real life in the 21st century with laws prohibiting torture and abuse, it is based off the medieval era where such things were commonplace.

I disagree with violence and abuse IRL but we should be given the opportunity to roleplay as we wish instead of trying to be politically correct here.

 

Yes, torture isn't acceptable even if killing is acceptable. The difference is in the magnitude of suffering inflicted. That's a legitimate ground to distinguish between the two morally. If developers feel that either slavery or torture crosses the moral event horizon and they refuse to portray it, then it's certainly a legitimate design choice. 

 

The distinction you're struggling with is that skinning someone alive, as Maria points out, is very different from cutting their throat. The problem isn't killing intent, it's gratuitously inflicting pain and suffering for no purpose other than to inflict pain and suffering.  

[Todd23]

Getting to do this with Cullen would legitimize every second I've spent playing Dragon Age and it's various other media.

[In Exile]

What, you don't think it's strange that you can kill a bandit that attacks you but the game doesn't let you skin him alive or boil her in oil? Naturally, this would be part of a graphic cutscene* or maybe a minigame. It's just odd that the game lets you defend yourself but BioWare isn't willing to let the PC dish out horrific abuses at every turn.


*Pun!

 

"If I kill someone it's perfectly okay, but the second I skin them alive and wear their face as a trophy, I cross some sort of invisible moral line!" 

[kalasaurus]

Like Lydia in Skyrim?

 

I sacrificed her to Boethiah.

[Todd23]

There is a huge difference between just plain killing, and mutilation and abuse.

The difference is that the former has been done to death, and the latter would be a lot more fun.

[The Don's Hound]

SUMMON THEIR CORPSES TO YOUR AID THROUGH THE POWER OF LORD CTHULHU.

 

HAIL LORD CTHULHU.

 

NOW **** ALL OF YOU.

[In Exile]

The difference is that the former has been done to death, and the latter would be a lot more fun.

 

We have pills for that. 

[Todd23]

Making the creature into a Banshee was an excellent gameplay and story decision, but that's my opinion.

Defaulting a decision of yours from the previous game as well as getting rid of a major character with nothing more than a single fight at the very end of the game with no other video involved or decisions? Even if I didn't like her and she wasn't a cool character that is just terrible writing in general.

[Todd23]

We have pills for that.

They don't work.

[Al Foley]

*glances at Cassandra and Viv*

 

The more I think about this idea the more I like it.  

 

But, it just causes all sorts of problems all over the place story wise.  And I doubt I would ever use it because no matter my opinion on the character it would eliminate my opprotunity to play through their content.  So, I think its something that should best be avoided. 

[TKavatar]

Yes, torture isn't acceptable even if killing is acceptable. The difference is in the magnitude of suffering inflicted. That's a legitimate ground to distinguish between the two morally. If developers feel that either slavery or torture crosses the moral event horizon and they refuse to portray it, then it's certainly a legitimate design choice.

The distinction you're struggling with is that skinning someone alive, as Maria points out, is very different from cutting their throat. The problem isn't killing intent, it's gratuitously inflicting pain and suffering for no purpose other than to inflict pain and suffering.

We're heading the Inquisition and sometimes we have to make difficult choices. Torture is part of that, to gain information. We may not like it, but sometimes we have to do stuff for the greater good.

This is supposed to be a game that's supposedly mature, but I don't see any evidence of it in game. Bioware likes to play it safe, tell, not show.

I'm not asking for minigames or graphic cutscenes. I'm not asking to wear any heads as trophies. I'm just asking for the option to do so, I don't even care if all I get is fade to black.

[In Exile]

We're heading the Inquisition and sometimes we have to make difficult choices. Torture is part of that, to gain information. We may not like it, but sometimes we have to do stuff for the greater good.

This is supposed to be a game that's supposedly mature, but I don't see any evidence of it in game. Bioware likes to play it safe, tell, not show.

I'm not asking for minigames or graphic cutscenes. I'm not asking to wear any heads as trophies. I'm just asking for the option to do so, I don't even care if all I get is fade to black.

 

Torture being effective is an incredible contentious IRL point. Including torture in a game, for the purpose of information, is reduced to which side of the political spectrum the developers want to slobber all over. Even the stuff you say "sometimes we have to do stuff for the greater good" is all about just giving in to a particular moral Jack Bauer-ish fantasy. 

 

This is all about power fantasy - you want to have the power of a torturer, or an abuser, but not the consequences, and are even actively shying away from them "not asking for minigames or graphic cutscenes... not asking to wear any heads as trophies..." 

 

The game can be quite mature without being snuff or giving in to someone's desire to be pointlessly grimdark. 

[Snore]

We're heading the Inquisition and sometimes we have to make difficult choices. Torture is part of that, to gain information. We may not like it, but sometimes we have to do stuff for the greater good.

This is supposed to be a game that's supposedly mature, but I don't see any evidence of it in game. Bioware likes to play it safe, tell, not show.

I'm not asking for minigames or graphic cutscenes. I'm not asking to wear any heads as trophies. I'm just asking for the option to do so, I don't even care if all I get is fade to black.

I agree with you Bioware should had put torture for a quest in for the Inquisition, but instead of it working you're sent on a wild goose chase and messed up the quest or possibly failing the quest or some crap like that. Thus you player feel like crap for doing an unnecessary act on a another person and driving home the point that torture is a crappy and wasteful thing to.

 

OT: Not killing my companions then turning them into Demon puppets. 

[TKavatar]

Torture being effective is an incredible contentious IRL point. Including torture in a game, for the purpose of information, is reduced to which side of the political spectrum the developers want to slobber all over. Even the stuff you say "sometimes we have to do stuff for the greater good" is all about just giving in to a particular moral Jack Bauer-ish fantasy. 
 
This is all about power fantasy - you want to have the power of a torturer, or an abuser, but not the consequences, and are even actively shying away from them "not asking for minigames or graphic cutscenes... not asking to wear any heads as trophies..." 
 
The game can be quite mature without being snuff or giving in to someone's desire to be pointlessly grimdark.

Why must everything be related to politics or real life issues now?

And yeah, DAI is a power fantasy, almost all RP games are. We get to decide the fate of nations, of the world, decide who lives and dies. That's why people get so annoyed they can't kill every character they hate, and complain of plot armour.

Also I don't like what you're implying. I certainly don't get any satisfaction from seeing pixels get tortured.

[In Exile]

Why must everything be related to politics or real life issues now?

And yeah, DAI is a power fantasy, almost all RP games are. We get to decide the fate of nations, of the world, decide who lives and dies. That's why people get so annoyed they can't kill every character they hate, and complain of plot armour.

Also I don't like what you're implying. I certainly don't get any satisfaction from seeing pixels get tortured.

 

It's a politics issue because you've made it one: torture is effective, we have to make "hard" choices because torture is obviously effective, and there's definitely no alternative better way, etc. Not including torture is also a moral/political issue, but of a different kind. Either way, it's not about "realism" but rather about what values we as consumers want our media to endorse. 

 

There are different kinds of power fantasies: the kind that empower the protagonist through great deeds (the ones you list) and the ones that empower the protagonist by abusing the weak (effectively, bullying) - that's torture and abuse. 

 

And I'm not suggesting you enjoy snuff - but you do have an idea of how a properly "dark" setting should be, and you're being pretty adamant that a game has to adhere to that definition or not be dark. That's what I mean. 

[TKavatar]

It's a politics issue because you've made it one: torture is effective, we have to make "hard" choices because torture is obviously effective, and there's definitely no alternative better way, etc. Not including torture is also a moral/political issue, but of a different kind. Either way, it's not about "realism" but rather about what values we as consumers want our media to endorse.

There are different kinds of power fantasies: the kind that empower the protagonist through great deeds (the ones you list) and the ones that empower the protagonist by abusing the weak (effectively, bullying) - that's torture and abuse.

And I'm not suggesting you enjoy snuff - but you do have an idea of how a properly "dark" setting should be, and you're being pretty adamant that a game has to adhere to that definition or not be dark. That's what I mean.

I guess we consumers are perfectly happy with endorsing genocide, killing kids and selling people into slavery and other horrible things as long as it's not torture. Thank goodness. And I didn't know murdering people was a good thing either!

Fact is, including stuff like torture isn't endorsement or anything silly like that. It's about showing the darker side of humanity, something that GRRM and CDProjekt Red aren't afraid to do unlike Bioware who plays it safe because political correctness and all that.