823 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

City elves have almost no culture of their own. They adapted and accepted human culture. Besides no one forces them to accept the ancient elven lore (which is the only true elven lore we have so far). But since it is Dalish clan, they have every right to set some rules.

Don't likes rules - don't join. It's that easy

The City Elf origin begs to differ. They took human and elven culture and created a new culture. That's how society works, both in Thedas and on Earth. 

The Dalish give them an ultimatum: Become Dalish or leave. Rules should never contain sacrifice your identity and conform to ours. Earlier you argued exactly that when you talked about the City Elves surrendering to the humans. You thought it wrong but now because it is the Dalish it is encouraged. Pick an argument and stick with it. 

[Felya87]

Sadly true. The more dalish try to dig our their darkest past, the deeper they're stuck in blood and misery. Still, some knowledge should be preserved. Like valasslins and language.

But magic? Run from that stuff at first sight

 

of course the basilar elements of the original culture should be preserved. but it should be gived the chance to evolve from it. Dalish have already a solid religion and all, but are too much focused in preserve those things they have, and don't see where they could evolve. Becaming for example more accepting of CE, even of Andrastian religion would increment their numbers, and maybe find the strenght to build a little elven village, for start.

 

This is what I believe would be best for the elves too, to wipe the slate and start fresh rather than stagnating in a past that will never be again. However from the perspective of an interesting story that is the least interesting path, having the Dalish keep digging for their past glory provides the most possible plot paths for the writers and so is the better path for the story to take (at least until the DA series gets closer to its conclusion, assuming such a thing ever occurs).

 

I don't think they should totally forgot about their traditions or background, or not try to gain as much knowlenge as they can. I simply think they should just actively use that knowlenge, and not just conserve it. I'd like to see them use their knowlenge, and try find more, but not only thinking about conserve it.

the past is a base to grow up. is not right forget about it, but is right not negletch the future for it.

[Chari]

The City Elf origin begs to differ. They took human and elven culture and created a new culture. That's how society works, both in Thedas and on Earth. 

The Dalish give them an ultimatum: Become Dalish or leave. Rules should never contain sacrifice your identity and conform to ours. Earlier you argued exactly that when you talked about the City Elves surrendering to the humans. You thought it wrong but now because it is the Dalish it is encouraged. Pick an argument and stick with it. 

There is less and less elven left in this "culture". No Gods, no traditions, no magic. Nothing 

That's how culture assimilate and become a part of other cultures. That's natural for one culture to abosrb another one. And elves are under threat of being literally assimilated due to their inability to reproduce elves if breeding with other races

And do the Dalish own anything to city elves? Any obligation? No, city elves chose their fate. The Dalish give a chance, a choice to change everything. But freedom has a price. If it is too much for you - return to your dump. It is up to you what to choose

[Chari]

of course the basilar elements of the original culture should be preserved. but it should be gived the chance to evolve from it. Dalish have already a solid religion and all, but are too much focused in preserve those things they have, and don't see where they could evolve. Becaming for example more accepting of CE, even of Andrastian religion would increment their numbers, and maybe find the strenght to build a little elven village, for start.

 

 

I don't think they should totally forgt about their tradition or background, or not try to gain as much knowlenge as they can. I simply think they should just actively use that knowlenge, and not just conserve it. I'd like to see them use their knowlenge, and try find more, but not only thinking about conserve it.

the past is a base to grow up. is not right forget about it, but is right not negletch the future for it.

Yep, true.

Remember who you were. But not let it hold you from evolving further

[The Night Haunter]

City elves have almost no culture of their own. *snip*

Almost certainly untrue. Every opressed group in the history of the universe has maintained a culture unique from their overlords. It isn't always the same culture they had before becoming oppressed, but it is still their culture. Whatever culture CE adopt is true elven culture, because they are elves. People make the culture, culture doesn't make the people.

 

Via Meriam-Webster Culture is defined as:

the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

We have seen very little of the City Elves outside a few exceptional individuals, but what we have seen does indeed suggest a unique culture. The CE view of the Dalish (as legends/saviours as mentioned in TME) is part of the CE culture. The custom of the Vhenaddal (sp?), otherwise known as the alienage tree, is unique to CE (Felassan, even goes so far as to say 'it is a nice tree, but nothing more', not an exact quote but the meaning is intact). The City Elves have a living, breathing, evolving culture, whereas the Dalish have a culture based on stagnation and subject to ever increasing entropy and decay.

 

Both cultures are valid, and both cultures are true Elven Culture.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is less and less elven left in this "culture". No Gods, no traditions, no magic. Nothing 

That's how culture assimilate and become a part of other cultures. That's natural for one culture to abosrb another one. And elves are under threat of being literally assimilated due to their inability to reproduce elves if breeding with other races

And do the Dalish own anything to city elves? Any obligation? No, city elves chose their fate. The Dalish give a chance, a choice to change everything. But freedom has a price. If it is too much for you - return to your dump. It is up to you what to choose

And? There is no slavery and less racial discrimination in America. Does that make us less American since we've changed from the old ways? 

Cultures are constructed, deconstructed, then reconstructed into a new culture. 

No, the City Elf's ancestors chose their fate. The current City Elfs inherited a legacy. The Dalish change nothing. They plan on waiting the humans out while they cling to the past. It is not freedom to sacrifice everything about what makes you you for protection. That's literally an antonym of freedom. 

 

I wonder if the City Elves, if and when they get a home of their own, will be as 'kind' to the Dalish as the Dalish are to the City Elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Almost certainly untrue. Every opressed group in the history of the universe has maintained a culture unique from their overlords. It isn't always the same culture they had before becoming oppressed, but it is still their culture. Whatever culture CE adopt is true elven culture, because they are elves. People make the culture, culture doesn't make the people.

 

Via Meriam-Webster Culture is defined as:

the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

We have seen very little of the City Elves outside a few exceptional individuals, but what we have seen does indeed suggest a unique culture. The CE view of the Dalish (as legends/saviours as mentioned in TME) is part of the CE culture. The custom of the Vhenaddal (sp?), otherwise known as the alienage tree, is unique to CE (Felassan, even goes so far as to say 'it is a nice tree, but nothing more', not an exact quote but the meaning is intact). The City Elves have a living, breathing, evolving culture, whereas the Dalish have a culture based on stagnation and subject to ever increasing entropy and decay.

 

Both cultures are valid, and both cultures are true Elven Culture.

Wonderful post. I agree entirely.

[The Night Haunter]

There is less and less elven left in this "culture". No Gods, no traditions, no magic. Nothing 

That's how culture assimilate and become a part of other cultures. That's natural for one culture to abosrb another one. And elves are under threat of being literally assimilated due to their inability to reproduce elves if breeding with other races

And do the Dalish own anything to city elves? Any obligation? No, city elves chose their fate. The Dalish give a chance, a choice to change everything. But freedom has a price. If it is too much for you - return to your dump. It is up to you what to choose

Who decides what is 'elven'?

Is American Culture invalid because it contains only a few elements left from the original English culture? or just a few elements from a variety of Native American cultures? Culture is an evolving, living thing, Elven culture is what ever culture the elves follow. To say that CE culture isn't elven just because it retains very few elements of ancient elves is the exact same as saying African-American culture is invalid because it contains very few elements from its original African roots. When the world changes those who would prosper and survive adapt and change with it, those who stagnate fall behind (which is why no-one worships the old Norse gods, or the Slavic gods, etc).

 

And yes, the Dalish have an obligation to the City Elves, the same responsibility any sentient being holds to every other sentient being. An obligation that they are not alone in ignoring, seeing as racism and religious strife are so common in Thedas.

[Felya87]

Yep, true.

Remember who you were. But not let it hold you from evolving further

 

exactly. I think the only good evolution there could be for elves is for both CE and Dalish stick together. Dalish have the culture, but don't know how to live in the world. CE know the world, and have the mentality to evolve and adapt. but lack the strenght to cut the bonds with the humans.

Dalish know how to fight and have a past to tell, but don't know how use it. City Elves know how to live and evolve, but don't know how how to fight.

 

a fusion of the two cultures would creat a complete people.

 

Dalish have no knowlenge of trading outside their own kind, don't know a thing about building structures or farming, due to their nomadic life, and their isolation made them ignorant regarding everything outside their clans, even if they know how to protect themself.

City Elves know how to live with humans and the others people of the world, how to trade, farm, build, and all the others thing of humans society, well, a part from fighting. they are both incomplete people, together they could construct a real society.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

exactly. I think the only good evolution there could be for elves is for both CE and Dalish stick together. Dalish have the culture, but don't know how to live in the world. CE know the world, and have the mentality to evolve and adapt. but lack the strenght to cut the bonds with the humans.

Dalish know how to fight and have a past to tell, but don't know how use it. City Elves know how to live and evolve, but don't know how how to fight.

 

a fusion of the two cultures would creat a complete people.

 

Dalish have no knowlenge of trading outside their own kind, don't know a thing about building structures or farming, due to their nomadic life, and their isolation made them ignorant regarding everything outside their clans, even if they know how to protect themself.

City Elves know how to live with humans and the others people of the world, how to trade, farm, build, and all the others thing of humans society, well, a part from fighting. they are both incomplete people, together they could construct a real society.

As long as one culture doesn't claim to be 'more elven' than the other, this will work fine. As a wise man said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

[The Night Haunter]

Culture based on stagnation? How so?

 

*snip*

I think you're misinterpreting my use of stagnation. I'm not saying they are shrinking/growing weaker/losing ground in their culture. I'm saying their culture is based almost completely upon the past. Certain aspects (the nomad facet especially, and the idea of a Keeper and First, amongst others) are new additions since the fall of Arlathan, however the primary focus of the Dalish is to preserve what they perceive as true Elven culture, such as the Elven language and customs, and magic, of the ancient elves. The Dalish aren't interested in improving or adding to their culture (beyond what ever recovered ancient knowledge adds), and as such their culture itself is stagnating. The Dalish look to the past, not the future, and not even the present.

 

Note: I actually like the Dalish culture and would love to see how/if it evolves as time passes and they are forced to interact with the world (especially if City Elves gain some type of meaningful freedom/social equality). I am not say their culture is bad, simply it is unchanging and rigid.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What's so "elven" about living in a dump, and begging the "good sir" for another coin? Or getting raped by a noble.

 

How you people play the CE origin and come out actually liking that upbringing is beyond me. It's unpleasant from the start.

What's so 'elven' about running around Thedas as basically vagabonds constantly at risk from humans, creatures, or mother nature while desperately clinging to a past you know practically nothing of at this point?

 

We don't like it. We want to change it. But at the same time we don't want to change it to Dalish. 

[The Night Haunter]

What's so "elven" about living in a dump, and begging the "good sir" for another coin? Or getting raped by a noble.

 

How you people play the CE origin and come out actually liking that upbringing is beyond me. It's unpleasant from the start.

What so Elven about riding around on Halla and being nomads? The Elves of Arlathan didn't do that, they lived in cities in their empire, just as humans in Orlais do (referenced in TME).

 

The answer as to what is Elven about living in the alienage is that elves currently do that, while maintaining their unique, distinct from human, culture. That is also what is elvish about the Dalish. Each group is just as elvish as the other because they are both elves, neither group is Arlathan and neither group is ever going to be Arlathan again, but they are both still elves.

[Chari]

And? There is no slavery and less racial discrimination in America. Does that make us less American since we've changed from the old ways?
Cultures are constructed, deconstructed, then reconstructed into a new culture.
No, the City Elf's ancestors chose their fate. The current City Elfs inherited a legacy. The Dalish change nothing. They plan on waiting the humans out while they cling to the past. It is not freedom to sacrifice everything about what makes you you for protection. That's literally an antonym of freedom.

I wonder if the City Elves, if and when they get a home of their own, will be as 'kind' to the Dalish as the Dalish are to the City Elves.

Oh, I didn't know that it was slavery and discrimination which made american culture american. I am though it were people who left their homes and decided to start a new life on a mysterious continent, travelling together to survive in harsh enviroment and creating their own dialect and unique never seen before traditions. But thanks for telling me. Now I know it is all about the slavery

[KaiserShep]

This whole distinction between what is elven and what isn't is pretty meaningless. Both are clearly elven culture. Anyway, in my opinion, I see the city elf culture greatly outlasting that of the Dalish. A small insular band of nomadic hunter gatherers that keep loose, disorganized communication with sister tribes?  If Thedas ever develops such a thing as strip malls, we all know who will die out first.

[The Night Haunter]

Oh, I didn't know that it was slavery and discrimination which made american culture american. I am though it were people who left their homes and decided to start a new life on a mysterious continent, travelling together to survive in harsh enviroment and creating their own dialect and unique never seen before traditions. But thanks for telling me. Now I know it is all about the slavery

Her point was culture evolves and changes over time. In the South pre-civil war slavery was a huge part of the culture. Today it isn't.

 

Arlathan culture was the culture of the ancient elves, neither Dalish nor CE culture is Arlathan, but both are still Elven. CE culture evolved from the combination of Arlathan culture, human influence, the effects of subjugation, and the preaching of the Chantry. It is still, however, distinctly elven.

[Chari]

What's so 'elven' about running around Thedas as basically vagabonds constantly at risk from humans, creatures, or mother nature while desperately clinging to a past you know practically nothing of at this point?

We don't like it. We want to change it. But at the same time we don't want to change it to Dalish.

Dalish know more than city elves can ever dream of

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh, I didn't know that it was slavery and discrimination which made american culture american. I am though it were people who left their homes and decided to start a new life on a mysterious continent, travelling together to survive in harsh enviroment and creating their own dialect and unique never seen before traditions. But thanks for telling me. Now I know it is all about the slavery

You're saying that the more a culture holds onto its roots, the more true of a culture that is. So I gave an example. Fine, let me give an elf one. The Arlathan Elves had elves in practically the same positions the City Elves are now: a servant class. Shouldn't the Dalish try to reestablish that because then they'll be 'more elven'? Or should they advance as a people and change their culture to not have that?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Her point was culture evolves and changes over time. In the South pre-civil war slavery was a huge part of the culture. Today it isn't.

 

Arlathan culture was the culture of the ancient elves, neither Dalish nor CE culture is Arlathan, but both are still Elven. CE culture evolved from the combination of Arlathan culture, human influence, the effects of subjugation, and the preaching of the Chantry. It is still, however, distinctly elven.

Thank you. Glad somebody got it. 

 

And I agree. As long as they are elves, whatever culture they have is an elven one. 

[KaiserShep]

Dalish know more than city elves can ever dream of

 

And yet a city elf is more likely to be exposed to a multicultural society, and is more likely to travel the known world to other cities, engage in trade with other races, etc...

 

The Dalish can look down on the shems' use of horses to get around, but sometimes, it's nice to have a mount that does your bidding, rather than serve as your spiritual companion.

[Chari]

Her point was culture evolves and changes over time. In the South pre-civil war slavery was a huge part of the culture. Today it isn't.

Arlathan culture was the culture of the ancient elves, neither Dalish nor CE culture is Arlathan, but both are still Elven. CE culture evolved from the combination of Arlathan culture, human influence, the effects of subjugation, and the preaching of the Chantry. It is still, however, distinctly elven.

Slavery doesn't make american culture unique. Many cultures had and still have it

Dalish take less from humans and more from arlathan