823 réponses à ce sujet

[AventuroLegendary]

Nothing wrong with ignorance and arrogance then. Those are completely different than racism though. Who would want to even be aware of that kind of life? Ignorance would be bliss, if you ask me.

 

And I know I would be arrogant myself. But it's not arrogant to the point that they keep it to themselves. The Dalish welcome newcomers. They want them to enjoy it like they do. They don't say "No, you suck, and you're not good enough for this." They say "Have some ****** dignity and join us."

 

Well, if you're acting high and mighty among those who don't really have control over their situation, then it's a little hypocritical. But why not let them join the Dalish, like you suggest? For individual elves looking for something better (who are pretty rare), perhaps. For an exodus of city elves, it's unlikely. The Dalish are a collection of reclusive, nomadic tribes, each one not being particularly massive. Accepting a lot of new members (we're talking mass exoduses here) would make it harder to sustain their way of life. An outsider elf would see their cultural practices as strange and unknown, in an even stranger environment. Ignorance is bliss, indeed.

 

This was talked about a few (or more) pages ago so I think I'm being a little redundant.

[AventuroLegendary]

That's what Fenris thinks. Forgot his exact line, but when Merrill suggests this same thing he says "Might as well go to the moon" or something like that.

 

It's too bad though. Because I think the general motivation behind the Dalish attitude is very similar to William Wallace in Braveheart. He's very hardcore about freedom and Scottish dignity.. and he gets in the faces of some fellow scotsman who want to appease or deal with whatever the English gave them. The Dalish attitude is similarly abrasive, but it's supposed to be inviting.

 

Yeah, there's that. Even if the city elves all miraculously decided to pursue the "Dalish dream", it wouldn't be realistic for the reasons I put out. Not to mention that a large recruitment and movement of "squatters" in Thedas would alarm the human nations. 

[Chari]

Yes because hatred and racism is the ultimate solution

Oh, sure, you can go and tell humans all about civil rights, democracy and equality and..
Woops! You've been impaled and your ears were cut off as a demonstration of their power
Looks like Thedas is still in medieval times. Not some faraway 21th century. And bitter hatred which elves feel is pretty justified
Thanks for cute victim blaming BTW

[Shadow Fox]

Oh, sure, you can go and tell humans all about civil rights, democracy and equality and..
Woops! You've been impaled and your ears were cut off as a demonstration of their power
Looks like Thedas is still in medieval times. Not some faraway 21th century. And bitter hatred which elves feel is pretty justified
Thanks for cute victim blaming BTW

How is saying that racial prejudice is wrong regardless of the race doing it victim blaming?

[Chari]

How is saying that racial prejudice is wrong regardless of the race doing it victim blaming?

Because you said nothing like that no, you blamed a member of race which was enslaved, which culture was destroyed for bad bad hatred towards race which did all of this and still treat elves like ****
Aka victim-blaming

[sky_captain]

Victim blaming is when you blame someone for something bad that happened to them. When a victim falls into the same cycle of irrational hate and violence they are now just as racist as the people who wronged them. For a real life example a friends of mine got lost in New York, and ended up in a bad neighborhood and got attacked for being a white person in the wrong area. Now them being angry at the people who attacked them is reasonable, being angry at all black people would make them as much a racist as the people who assaulted them.

[themageguy]

I'd like to see Azula...I mean Velanna, again )

[Chari]

Victim blaming is when you blame someone for something bad that happened to them. When a victim falls into the same cycle of irrational hate and violence they are now just as racist as the people who wronged them. For a real life example a friends of mine got lost in New York, and ended up in a bad neighborhood and got attacked for being a white person in the wrong area. Now them being angry at the people who attacked them is reasonable, being angry at all black people would make them as much a racist as the people who assaulted them.

Irrational hate?
If you think elves who are angry at humans are irrational then you need to research lore. And it is still victinblaming cause lots of bad things happened to elves mostly all thanks to humans

[sky_captain]

So I guess to apply what I said earlier to the DA universe, elves being pissed and fighting the people and organizations who oppress them is all well and good. But to hate and target all humans makes them just as racist and unjust as those who have wronged them

[Zazzerka]

Irrational hate?
If you think elves who are angry at humans are irrational then you need to research lore. And it is still victinblaming cause lots of bad things happened to elves mostly all thanks to humans

 

So we should all just lay down and die whenever they're feeling a bit unhappy, then.

 

Anger is justified to an extent. Wholesale slaughter of the Wending Wood merchant caravans is not.

[Chari]

So I guess to apply what I said earlier to the DA universe, elves being pissed and fighting the people and organizations who oppress them is all well and good. But to hate and target all humans makes them just as racist and unjust as those who have wronged them

Hmm, no. Cause society in Theda's oppresses elves everywhere
Elves and quarian cultures were strongly based on native american and jewish struggles in past. For better understanding I'd recommend reading Ivanhoe where even honourable and kind main hero treated Rebecca differently cause she wass Jewish
Now, he is the main protagonist so you can get a picture how most people treated them
Thedas is very alike

[sky_captain]

Well it looks like I have the common internet error of trying to reason with the unreasonable good night Chari.

[Chari]

So we should all just lay down and die whenever they're feeling a bit unhappy, then.

Anger is justified to an extent. Wholesale slaughter of the Wending Wood merchant caravans is not.

In DAO, DA2, codex and WOT it was stated that illegal slave trade is still a thing. It is quite logical to assume that slaves are transfered by either boats or wagons
Besides, we have an orlesian spy, an antivan assassin, a qunari who slaughtered a family, apostates responsible fordeaths of many innocent lives, a golem which killed its own master, a drunkard who killed an opponent at Provings etc
Our team is nothing but murderers and criminals. But the fact that they throw everything they have to make things better is their ultimate redemption

[Chari]

Well it looks like I have the common internet error of trying to reason with the unreasonable good night Chari.

Don't blame me for not having good arguments ;P its your fault alone

[Zazzerka]

In DAO, DA2, codex and WOT it was stated that illegal slave trade is still a thing. It is quite logical to assume that slaves are transfered by either boats or wagons

 

Even if the silk merchants were illegally transporting slaves, which I doubt, that was not Velanna's motive for killing them. As for the rest of the party, you're right, some of them have done wrong, and made up for it. But your problem is not even seeing that what Velanna did was indeed wrong.

[Chari]

Even if the silk merchants were illegally transporting slaves, which I doubt, that was not Velanna's motive for killing them. As for the rest of the party, you're right, some of them have done wrong, and made up for it. But your problem is not even seeing that what Velanna did was indeed wrong.

Who said I didn't? But I can understand why she made this mistake. She can, if you pay enough attention to her behaviour and words
I give people second chance especially if I know they're willing to change and can change the world for better
Velanna is tsundere, stubborn, biased but not wicked. She has a golden heart deep inside. She is honest about her own mistakes - if you try to sugarcoat them she snaps at you
If I can forgive Sten for killing children under affect, I sure can forgive Velanna for killing merchants and bandits as well because she thought they killed her beloved sister

[Chari]

One russian priest once said that true Christians were not saints but sinners who seeked redemption
I think this perfectly describes Grey Wardens

[Zazzerka]

Who said I didn't? But I can understand why she made this mistake.

 

You don't need to sell her to me. I recruit her, she becomes a Grey Warden, and fights anew on the side of good. But I don't try to brush aside the fact that she is in fact a murderer by saying, "Oh, the elves have had it hard," or "Well, they could've been slavers."

 

If you're now saying that those aren't excuses, then I guess we agree.

[Chari]

You don't need to sell her to me. I recruit her, she becomes a Grey Warden, and fights anew on the side of good. But I don't try to brush aside the fact that she is in fact a murderer by saying, "Oh, the elves have had it hard," or "Well, they could've been slavers."

If you're now saying that those aren't excuses, then I guess we agree.

They are valid excuses for her hatred and distrust toward humans
As for caravans, Loghain was responsible for many more deaths yet I still thinks he deserves an honourable death like the hero of Fereldan. He is a traitor and a murderer but he tried to help

[Zazzerka]

Yeah. When your idea of "helping" is to sell off a part of your city to Tevinter slavers, I don't know if "honourable" is the word you should use to describe them.

 

But I'm not even talking about Loghain. Whatever Loghain did has no impact on Velanna. Which is what I was talking about.

[Chari]

Yeah. When your idea of "helping" is to sell off a part of your city to Tevinter slavers, I don't know if "honourable" is the word you should use to describe them.

But I'm not even talking about Loghain. Whatever Loghain did has no impact on Velanna. Which is what I was talking about.

That's why he dies. But while helping people

Yes, it does. We have a team of criminals. Velanna is no better or worse than any one them and deserves to be treated like the rest - which depends on how you treat others too
I treat them with understanding and acceptance. How you treat them is up to you

[SnakeCode]

Because you said nothing like that no, you blamed a member of race which was enslaved, which culture was destroyed for bad bad hatred towards race which did all of this and still treat elves like ****
Aka victim-blaming

Yeah... That's not victim blaming.

[Chari]

Yeah... That's not victim blaming.

It is and will be until humans start treating elves with respect. Which won't happen in this age for sure