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Velanna in Inquisition?


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#526
In Exile

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Orlais was so devastated they swallowed a whole country with a single bite

They asked, actually. At least help from Orlais. It's just that some paranoid dude who betrayed his king was against outsiders' help

 

The Dales burned and pillaged their way through Orlais all the way to Val Royeaux. They were beaten back only after an Exalted March was declared. So obviously Orlais needed help (though apparently the EM did not mean other nation states joined the war, presumably implying it was just mages + templars working together). 


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#527
KaiserShep

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I know how politics, holy crusades and war-based-countries work

 

It doesn't matter if you can make every political mind on earth blush; the fact remains that you don't know with any kind of certainty what any country would do in an alternate timeline. Qualifiers such as "Well I know such-and-such" doesn't really change that.



#528
Hanako Ikezawa

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Orlais was so devastated they swallowed a whole country with a single bite

They asked, actually. At least help from Orlais. It's just that some paranoid dude who betrayed his king was against outsiders' help

The Second Blight ended in 1:95. The Orlais-Dales War started in 2:9 with the Dalish attack of Red Crossing and push into Orlais.

 

We have no knowledge if they asked other nations, so it's safe to say they didn't since any nation other than Orlais was never brought up in discussion about reinforcements. 



#529
Chari

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The Second Blight ended in 1:95. The Orlais-Dales War started in 2:9 with the Dalish attack of Red Crossing.

We have no knowledge if they asked other nations, so it's safe to say they didn't since any nation other than Orlais was never brought up in discussion about reinforcements.

That's quite a long time to go revenge mode. Don't tell me one of the most powerful nations in Thedas waited decades to do something about it

Since there was no proof it was Blight and there was no WiFi... Yeah, no surprise at all
Still, you throw a childish tantrum because one elf killed some merchants but you're okay with a whole nation getting slaughtered? What sweet double standards

#530
Hanako Ikezawa

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That's quite a long time to go revenge mode. Don't tell me one of the most powerful nations in Thedas waited decades to do something about it

Since there was no proof it was Blight and there was no WiFi... Yeah, no surprise at all
Still, you throw a childish tantrum because one elf killed some merchants but you're okay with a whole nation getting slaughtered? What sweet double standards

Orlais let the matter go. The Dales is the nation that started the Orlais-Dales War by pushing into Orlais. 

 

I haven't thrown a tantrum about Velanna. You need to keep track of who says what. 



#531
Chari

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It doesn't matter if you can make every political mind on earth blush; the fact remains that you don't know with any kind of certainty what any country would do in an alternate timeline. Qualifiers such as "Well I know such-and-such" doesn't really change that.

That's some common sense and knowledge of history
You can try to convince yourself that Orlais was doing it for the best intentions, but it won't change a thing
Politics don't work like that

#532
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The Dales burned and pillaged their way through Orlais all the way to Val Royeaux. They were beaten back only after an Exalted March was declared. So obviously Orlais needed help (though apparently the EM did not mean other nation states joined the war, presumably implying it was just mages + templars working together).

Proof?

#533
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That's quite a long time to go revenge mode. Don't tell me one of the most powerful nations in Thedas waited decades to do something about it

 

Your point was that the Dales, 700 years ago, was good enough for Velanna to seek revenge against some random merchants. Montsimmard would have been, by that logic, more than good enough for the Orlesians to seek out vengeance against the Dales. This is the problem with this vengeance based justification. 


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#534
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Proof?

 

World of Thedas. 


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#535
Hanako Ikezawa

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Proof?

The 'World of Thedas' book. 

 

Edit.  :ph34r: 'd by Exile.



#536
Chari

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Orlais let the matter go. The Dales is the nation that started the Orlais-Dales War by pushing into Orlais.

I haven't thrown a tantrum about Velanna. You need to keep track of who says what.

What a nice excuse for genocide and ages-long racism

Then what are you even doing here? Elves are an oppressed minority, that is canon. Don't like it? Your problem

#537
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I think the only people who have a chance of giving elves a fair shake is Ferelden. Just like Andraste was Ferelden and did it in her own day. Ferelden is the other "victim of empire". They know all too well.

 

Orlais and Tevinter? I don't trust a thing they say. It's probably worst now than it was in Andraste's day - since they use her image now.



#538
Hanako Ikezawa

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What a nice excuse for genocide and ages-long racism

Then what are you even doing here? Elves are an oppressed minority, that is canon. Don't like it? Your problem

I'm here to discuss the possibility of Velanna being in Inquisition. You know, the reason this thread exists. 



#539
Pirate Queen Isabela

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I think you guys are generally supposed to hate her. And I think you have to bend over backwards a bit or be Dalish to even care about Velanna. There's no reason to debate much of this.

 

Or are you looking for someone to convince you to care? Because it can't be done. You either do or you don't.

 

Which sucks, because I really love her character. Some of her writing is straight up lazy but if she had a longer time introduced to us, I feel like a lot of people would warm up to her. 

 

Also the not seeing Velanna's joining is indeed a bug.  :(



#540
Chari

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Your point was that the Dales, 700 years ago, was good enough for Velanna to seek revenge against some random merchants. Montsimmard would have been, by that logic, more than good enough for the Orlesians to seek out vengeance against the Dales. This is the problem with this vengeance based justification.

My logic is that elves are oppressed, whether you like it or not

WOT says that the reasons for tension were:
1) Dales having its own religion (so terrible)
2) They rejected the Maker (unthinkable)
3) Small raiding party attacked one human city

So, because of some elven bandits Orlais destroyed a whole nations and turned its culture to dust...
How adorable

#541
KaiserShep

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That's some common sense and knowledge of history
You can try to convince yourself that Orlais was doing it for the best intentions, but it won't change a thing
Politics don't work like that

 

You're basically saying the same thing as before, only with more words. To go back to your previous point, your reasoning around your speculation is pretty much the same as the volus accusing the quarian of stealing his credit chit in Mass Effect 2, when he says "Well, the quarian could have stolen it." He considers them all thieves, and it's always possible that a quarian or anyone for that matter, if desperate enough, might just do such a thing, but we have no way to know this, because the volus didn't have his credit chit on him.



#542
Hanako Ikezawa

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The fall of the Dales 

 

As the Dales continued, its citizens became increasingly isolationist, perhaps simply because they had learned to distrust humans during their long slavery, or perhaps because they were seeking to regain the immortality that legend says contact with the humans had robbed them of. Certainly Chantry missionaries would have been unwelcome in a land trying to re-establish the old elven religion, but historians also claim that the elves refused to trade with their neighbors and that "Emerald Knights" were posted at the borders to forestall visitors.[20]

 

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales.[21] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.

 

At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.[17] Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.


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#543
Chari

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I'm here to discuss the possibility of Velanna being in Inquisition. You know, the reason this thread exists.

So far you've been arguing with the whole concept of elves being oppressed minority and even blaming them for what Orlais did
Next time you may argue that blood magic makes people more likely to become possessed by demons and it still won't be canon

#544
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Even if they had valid reasons for war, it still makes no sense to wipe out Shartan from their Chant, and erase all images and mention of him in their history. This is systematic racism, within not just Orlais, but the Orlesian chantry itself.

 

These people follow Andraste? When they so easily take a giant dump on her friend?

 

If they're capable of this level of douchebaggery, it makes me question their reasons for war too.


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#545
Hanako Ikezawa

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So far you've been arguing with the whole concept of elves being oppressed minority and even blaming them for what Orlais did
Next time you may argue that blood magic makes people more likely to become possessed by demons and it still won't be canon

No, all I said was that Mercury Elf was right about the Dalish not helping in the Second Blight. You added the rest on your own. 



#546
Chari

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The fall of the Dales

As the Dales continued, its citizens became increasingly isolationist, perhaps simply because they had learned to distrust humans during their long slavery, or perhaps because they were seeking to regain the immortality that legend says contact with the humans had robbed them of. Certainly Chantry missionaries would have been unwelcome in a land trying to re-establish the old elven religion, but historians also claim that the elves refused to trade with their neighbors and that "Emerald Knights" were posted at the borders to forestall visitors.[20]


In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales.[21] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.


At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.[17] Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.

So in the end Dales did nothing but simply exist isolated
And Chantry - as pointed by the text itself - may have lied to show the elves as evil
And in result - genocide and nation annihilation

#547
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No, all I said was that Mercury Elf was right about the Dalish not helping in the Second Blight. You added the rest on your own.

You said Dales started the war and it was their fault the tensions got bad
Terrible, terrible Dales for having their own society

#548
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My logic is that elves are oppressed, whether you like it or not

WOT says that the reasons for tension were:
1) Dales having its own religion (so terrible)
2) They rejected the Maker (unthinkable)
3) Small raiding party attacked one human city

So, because of some elven bandits Orlais destroyed a whole nations and turned its culture to dust...
How adorable

 

Point 1: Only in your head did I ever say that the elves weren't oppressed. You're quoting a post that literally has noting to do with that. 

 

Point 2: At no point did I condone the genocide that Orlais conduct in the Dales. This, again, exists only in your head. 

 

Point 3: The Dales invaded Orlais first, not the other way around. Whether or not it was a Dalish raid on Red Crossing that started the war, the events that immediately followed it resulted in a large scale invasion of Orlais. That could happen in one of two ways (1) the Dalish were actually invading with a massive military force or (2) Orlais started the war and invaded first, but lost a massive battle inside Orlais, and then the Dales followed that up by cutting a bloody path through Orlais all the way to Val Royeaux, including (according to the Codex that Hinata posted, actually sacking Val Royeaux).  


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#549
Hanako Ikezawa

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So in the end Dales did nothing but simply exist isolated
And Chantry - as pointed by the text itself - may have lied to show the elves as evil
And in result - genocide and nation annihilation

Here, let me make a simple timeline. 

 

Chantry sends missionaries

Dales kick out missionaries

Chantry sends Templars to defend missionaries before going back into Dales

Dales attacks Red Crossing

Dales invades Orlais and sacks several cities, including Orlais' capitol

Orlais asks Chantry for help

Chantry declares Exalted March

Chantry and Orlais force Dales back

Chantry and Orlais rob Dales of capability to make war. 

 

That is the history of the Orlais-Dales War in as simple of terms as possible. 

 

And don't think I have any intentions behind this. I am simply posting history as it happened.


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#550
Hanako Ikezawa

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You said Dales started the war and it was their fault the tensions got bad
Terrible, terrible Dales for having their own society

They did. Dales invaded Orlais first. As for tensions, no I said them not helping in the Blight made it worse, which it did.