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[In Exile]

They've fought for rights before. The Dalish origin's clan is free to roam where they do because they beat the Clayne tribes. There's not much story other than that though, but I doubt the Clayne were helpless. This is the same tribe that sprung the Ash warriors.

 

But anyways, "ymmv" it is. They never stated that their goal was to be a thorn in a side of humanity to begin with. Like I said, they're isolationist.

 

It's a fair point that those tribes were probably not weak, but they're not Orlais, either.

 

I'm not saying their goal is to be a thorn in humanity's side, I'm just saying that if their motto is "don't submit", I think they're not doing a good job of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

If these people can still feed themselves and craft their own tools and homes, they're not conquered. Not everything is about having political significance or building an empire. Simply "being what you want" is good enough to count for something.

 

Arguably the most relevant aspect of being conquered is identifying yourself with your conquerors and assimilators. For the City Elves, that applies.

 

Conquering rarely means a lack of ability to survive (feed) or build tools and homes. Unless we're talking genocidal or mass enslavement forms of conquest, but I'm not sure why we would be since that was never the context of the fall of the Dales.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The oath of the Dales is about refusing to submit to human rule. Which is exactly what they do. It says nothing about constantly fighting against them. The very fact that the City Elves tend to be much worse off than Dalish Elves means that there is merit to Dalish practices.

[Dean_the_Young]

Don't submit means to not make the same kind of deals they did once. It's bitterness from the fall of the Dales.

The fall of the Dales wasn't about a deal they once did. It was a catastrophic military defeat following an outbreak of war between nations. Considering not even the Dalish claim a deal of no other nations ever having any conflicts with the Dales no matter what they do, I'm a bit skeptical of their claims of a deal being broken. In so much as a deal was made, it was to give the Dalish a country. That happened- where the Dalish ran it afterwards was up to them. By history, they appear to have driven it into conflict with their neighbors.

 

The only reason the Dalish aren't vulnerable to catastrophic military defeats anymore is because they already sundered themselves into lots of disposable, individual tribes- which can and have been as thoroughly destroyed as the Dales.

 

 

 

These are people who followed Andraste, and then got screwed by her followers.

 

 

Quite possibly after screwing her followers. A point of history and vital context to their narrative they don't even deny as much as completely skip over and gloss any discussion as to why conflict occurred, and certainly don't mention sacking a number of Orlesian cities.

 

This is more analogous to revisionists who claim the US is responsible for the Pacific War.
 

 

"Not submit" is just another way of saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". At least that's how I see it. I think it springs from deep humilitation rather than mere anger.

 

 

If the Dalish see it that way, they're fooling themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

But the Dalish do submit. Their way of life is quintessential submission. They live in exile, they mostly run from organized human miltary might and keep to harassing humans only when they're mostly powerless to fight back, and they've not only abandoned the CEs, but they've built a narrative that the CEs are somehow lesser than they are which justifies leaving them alone to their fate.

 

Their elven culture is a fantasy that they've built up. Their language is invented, and their lore is the best they could piece toghether from what they found.

 

It would be one thing if, like in the Witcher, the Dalish were engaged in a hopeless and eventually suicidal war against humanity like the Sco'iatel. Those are the "foolish" elves, whose day has passsed but whose pride refuses to let them just lie down and die.

 

I think rather than 'submission' you could make a better case that 'the Dalish are letting the Humans influence their culture.' Which is kind of antithetical to the Dalish cause for being.

 

The whole shitick of the Dalish is that they recover, restore, and practice the culture that was lost, and that in doing so they are the True Elves of Elvishness. But... they really don't have much to say they do that, and more to say they don't. Their entire way of life, of being nomadic and oral tradition and tribal and focused on the way of the hunter are all radically divergent from what the True Elven Culture actually was. What little we do know (or have reason to believe) is incredibly different: urban, aristocratic, slaveholding. The Dalish are extremely far from all three, and for reasons (and history) that have much to do with humans.

 

The Dalish have this premise of being unaffected and untainted by Human influence as they practice Real Elf Culture, but really they're about as close to being Real Elf as modern Pagan revivalists are to actual ancient pagans. They have some of the same words, a sprinkling of ceremony, and self-identity... but they're predominatly affected and shaped by the influences they claim to reject.

[Dean_the_Young]

I didn't say the Fall of the Dales was part of a deal. The land itself was. I know this.

 

 

Indeed. They were offered land. They got land. Deal complete.

 

Keeping said land requires being tolerable to your neighbors, especially the ones who can destroy you if they don't like youo enough. The Dalish failed at that.

 

 

 

 

As for the truth of the story, we'll run around each other in circles, I'm afraid. The writers give two versions of the story for the very fact that you and I can fight about it now.

 

They're screwing with everyone. Pick your poison.

 

Well, they really didn't. The Dalish and Chantry versions aren't contradictory.

 

They also produced World of Thedas, which on meta-level is the official standing position of the setting in terms of facts and events.

 

 

 

But what I don't care to hear is your "solutions" and talk of integration. I'd rather there be conflict. That's what it was created for. Until I'm notified otherwise.

 

Ok. And?

 

I mean, people like Velanna doing stupid things for stupid reasons and getting people killed is technically a solution. It's not necessarily a solution to any of the problems cited as motivation, but it does demonstrate resolve and a desire for doing... whatever one thinks you're achieving by doing such a thing. I'm sure she was teaching those Humans a lesson, albeit not one she probably intended.

 

Personally, I don't hate the elves so I don't advocate continuing a self-destructive culture or direction. I also feel there's conflict enough in simply integration to make for plenty of fodder that would interest me.

[calvinien]

I hope so. And I hope she finally hooked up with Nathaniel.

 

I'm a sucker for a good sam and diane style romance.

[Dean_the_Young]

The last part sounded more rude than I wished. I like the idea of integration, but here the cost of integration is too high. It means mass conversion to a religion these people don't believe in. How is that reasonable?

 

 

The City Elves already believe in Andrastianism, and have already assimilated (if not integrated) with their countries. No one is demanding the Dalish convert to Andrastianism or integrate into the kingdoms. You are posing a false dilemma.

 

 

 

If you want to convert them at the point of a sword, fine.. but I doubt you'll convince them to do it on their own. They'd rather chill and hunt and not be.... in your general vicinity.

 

 

 

Sure. It's a great improvement over what the Dales did. It'd also be nice if that's all the Dalish did, but small improvements.

 

Mind you, it's not a long-term plan. As the human civilizations settle and expand, the nomads are going to be pushed further and further to the margins. And if they become a stationary nation, they're going to have neighbors.

 

They could also stand to benefit quite a bit from dropping the xenophobia and racial purity complex as well. As tempting as immortality may seem, when it can be lost so easily by mere contact with other cultures (that have also irreversably shaped your own) it probably isn't worth militant isolationism.

 

(And, if we wanted to take Dalish purity projects to their logical enforcement, totalitarian police state controls on cultural dissent.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Simple question... why should they [elves] want to integrate and assimilate if they're genetically recessive? Isn't this the main reason for the original Arlathan/Tevinter scuffle? It's a lot more than "I want to be isolated cuz I'm proud like my ancestors and I love trees".  

 

Because they are genetically recessive would be a reason. The only way to indefinitely maintain recessive stocks is to forbid free association: if you don't want to be restricted by a breeding plan and isolating yourself from the rest of the world forever, genetic purity isn't worth that much.

 

The other simple answer to a simple question is that assimilation and integration makes life a lot easier and pleasant when you live within another culture. Mutual acceptance and common identity replaces social exclusion and suspicion. Technically you could even keep the genetic purity and breeding plan if you wanted, while adopting the rest of the culture.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think Velanna even matters in the wider context. I know this thread is about her, but I thought we were getting away from that subject for a bit.

 

She was duped by the darkspawn and distraught. An already aggressive person to begin with, to be sure, but there's a lot of manipulation going on in that situation. You could punish for her crime one way or another --- and I wouldn't argue with you about it. I just don't think it has anything to do with these other issues we're talking about. Other than that her anger is a symptom of bigger things.

 

Her anger being a symptom of bigger things is quite enough. Velanna is a hardliner, but a hardliner of well established Dalish cultural trends and strains of thought. Not all Dalish think like her, but more than a few do (if not as much). Her beliefs, and their consequences for her faction, are pretty relevant to what the Dalish can do and what can happen to them if that part of their culture is allowed to persist in a way in which it can gain power and influence.

 

Which, considering the Dalish Keeper system basically amounts to a crapshoot of the values of the Keeper, isn't reassuring. Luckily for the Dalish, she already helped the Clan break apart.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then I don't understand a thing you're saying.

 

That might be my fault. If so, my apologies. But that's been my whole perception since I entered this thread and spoke to you. You seem to be OK with the Chantry reappropriating the story of Andraste and Shartan and expecting elves to be OK with it. How am I supposed to interpret that?

 

 

First point is to stop conflating the Dalish Elves and the City Elves. There is no 'the Elves' in the DA setting except as a racial group devoid of political and cultural unity. You've been jumping between the two groups a number of times, which probably has something to do with your confusion.

 

 

Second point is to recognize that I am not a particularly passionate person. I am pretty calm by nature, and I don't get hyperbolic or emotional very easily. I'm pretty dispassionate about most topics, especially when I'm being impersonal (which applies here). A lack of emotional opposition is not approval.

 

 

Third point is to recognize that I have been noting that the Chantry had reasons to do what they did with Shartan, not approving or disapproving that they did. I do think they had reasons that go beyond 'they did it because they're racist and bad people and religious hypocrites.' I think Shartan's removal was a matter of politics more than mere racism, particularly since Shartan could be a dangerous symbol for the nations taking these elves at the Chantry's behest. If these reasons strike you as legitimate or reasonable reasons for doing something you see as bad... well, that's on you. If not, that's on you as well.

 

 

The fourth point is to recognize that I have made no position or claim that the elves 'should be okay' with the the Chantry's decision to remove Shartan. I don't think the elves particularly care- the Dalish aren't Andrastian and have other beefs, the City Elves are accustomed to Shartan-less Andrastianism and have their own immediate concerns- but the 'should' never factors in once the 'do' is considered. Base assessments of the elves off of what they are, not what they should be.

[General TSAR]

Sure, have a scenario where she is leading an Elven revolt and we crush it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, so this is about strategizing or something to you? Concerned about future power and influence?

 

I think that's all out of our hands, if they're ever going to have it at all.

 

I'm not having a discussion in hopes of changing anything in the story. I'm having a discussion because you're interested in exchanging views. Expressing my views on an topic of modest interest is reason enough.

 

I think the Dalish have taken a losing position and keep it on a losing route, but that's just my assessment of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Dean_the_Young]

I agree with Dean that culturally the elves have so long to live. However their best chance for survival as a sub-species is to join the Qunari. I doubt the nations of Thedas would give two ***** about an elven breeding program. And city elves are too undisciplined/unorganized to maintain one themselves by virtue of ages of institutionalized racism.  

 

Institutionalized racism would probably support it- unless it turned into some 'let's get rid of elves by only letting them marry humans.' But that could come from a radical reformer position to break racism.

 

The City Elves apparently already practice arranged marriages via their local leaders, going off of the City Elf Warden, so there is that.