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[Dean_the_Young]

They have as long as Gaider wants them to live.

 

He can even declare what's "death" or not for certain characters.

 

If he likes the Dalish, they will thrive just fine.

 

Author fiat can certainly do that. I don't think there's been any indication that it has, though: the Dalish are regularly coming into conflict and risking or suffering significant harm as a course of their cultural tendencies in most of the medium in which they have a notable roll.

 

At this point, the Dalish have had to be rescued from themselves rather than succeeding on their own.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then I will simply cut the conversation here. To be honest (and I say this out of courtesy, not viciousness), I can't deal with dispassionate people, especially when it comes to something like this. The reappropriation of symbols and whatnot. To me, it's sacrilege (which is a word loaded with passion in itself). To you, well.. I guess, you're trying to be a bit too objective for my tastes. I don't want to talk now. I'll leave you be.

 

Okay. Laters.

 

I'll respond if you talk more or later.

[In Exile]

Don't submit means to not make the same kind of deals they did once. It's bitterness from the fall of the Dales. They once followed Andraste, and then had a falling out with her own followers.

 

"Not submit" is just another way of saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". At least that's how I see it. I think it springs from deep humilitation rather than mere anger. Their pride keeps them from being vulnerable again.

 

It's similar to deals America made with the Native American tribes. After awhile, people get tired of getting screwed, and they isolate.

 

To me, "not submit" is quite different from "don't make deals with humans". I don't think the analogy with Native Americans works - after all, the Dales were land the elves took after marching in a military campaign. It was a spoil of war as much as anything. Even Dalish lore recognizes they were "granted" the Dales, so it's quite a different situation. 

 

They built their cities there, and in time became a regional power that clashed with Orlais. Even if the Orlesians were greedily looking at the Dales as grounds ripe for expansion, it still wouldn't amount to the sort of betrayal that the Native Amerians experienced in deals or treaties. The Dales fought a war and lost. 

 

To me, the Dalish continue to be vulnerable. The fact that their response to either the templars or to regional powers hunting them is to flee, and because of the fact that an individual clan is effectively not a threat to a large nation, tells us that the Dalish are at most a group living so far at the periphery of human society in Thedas that it's not worth it for the humans to even bother with them. 

 

Again, to me, existing by cowering in the shadows cast by your oppressor is submission. 

 

The oath of the Dales is about refusing to submit to human rule. Which is exactly what they do. It says nothing about constantly fighting against them. The very fact that the City Elves tend to be much worse off than Dalish Elves means that there is merit to Dalish practices.

 

But the Dalish do submit to human rule. They effectively respect human sovereignty, unless the target is ripe and on the same level with them militarily - basically, lashing out at the only targets they can lash out at (the example StreetMagic gives is a good one). 

 

The CEs are more within the power of humans, and so they're more abused, but that doesn't mean the Dalish are somehow standing up to humans more. They've just run away from them, and have built a lifespan that centers around hiding from humans and ceding ground to them whenever they mass. 

 

It's like saying that someone is standing up to bullies by hiding in the bathroom from them. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Ugh. Last post, I swear. I just saw this after I posted.

 

I don't why they're in danger. Or what they have to be rescued from. Or why they have to play in these bigger arenas you want them in. That's part of my overall point. They keep to themselves, they feed themselves, and they seem pretty damn well off and happy for wanderers. Where is the impending crisis here? 

 

The only thing working against them is that they're "heathens".

 

The Dalish are in danger because they are weak and in a poor position, and not particularly doing anything that would increase their position relative to the things that could ruin it. The individual clans can and have been wiped out with relative ease from poor decision making, and the Dalish cultural threads of isolationism, xenophobia, and fixating on the past have kept these poor decisions coming. That's more than heathens- that's barely being able to interact with civilizations they live around.

 

 

The Dalish are too weak to pick a fight with stronger or more dangerous people, but that's precisely what hardliners like Velanna and Zathrian do. Even the Dalish Clan from Masked Empire and Merrill were gambling with extreme risk in their demonology. Out of the four clans we see, all four of them can be destroyed, and in large part due to consequences of their own cultural baggage and fixations. Instead of making a society that can survive a bad keeper, they're on an impossible task (reclaim a destroyed culture) with an unreasonable goal (outlast the humans) while being far more fragile and at risk than the humans. If the Dalish as a people are to survive, the first need to be rescued from their own culture.

 

Not that they need to survive as a people, mind you. They've already fragmented, and a lot of the tribes are going in their own ways politically and culturally. As time goes by, 'Dalish' will be an outdated anachronism only usefull as an overly broad collectivation.

 

 

I don't particularly care about the Dalish doing better in any bigger arenas. If they care, though, they should look past short-term survival of 'feeding themselves' and start looking at long term survival as a polity and/or culture. Being weak nomads in regular flight and conflict with stronger forces whose tribes go missing or are wiped out is not a civilization strategy... or at least not one that keeps a civization going.

 

But if they're happy being happy and making poor long-term decisions.. well, so they are. Until they aren't.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think this "concern" for others is another reason why I believe the Dalish narrative about the Dales than I do Orlais. Some people show too much "concern" for things that don't involve them and feel the need to organize the environment around them. It's how Orlais is (and all empires are) and how the Chantry is. And the same mentality rears it head here.

 

"But these guys won't play along, will they? Well, we're just going to have to save them from themselves."

 

You realize the Dalish narrative doesn't dispute the Chantry or Orlais narraitve, right? It simply takes a different conclusion, not a different series of events.

[Chari]

The City Elves already believe in Andrastianism, and have already assimilated (if not integrated) with their countries. No one is demanding the Dalish convert to Andrastianism or integrate into the kingdoms. You are posing a false dilemma.

Yes, Chantry does. Elven pantheon is considered a heretical belief system and is pursued by Chantry and any other major religion. That's how any government-non-approved religion ends up

Though since you're blaming dalish for trying to save what little is left of their true culture yet you're okay with other nations discriminating against elves and treating them like ****... I see no point in arguing with somebody of such double standards

[KaiserShep]

Though since you're blaming dalish for trying to save what little is left of their true culture yet you're okay with other nations discriminating against elves and treating them like ****... I see no point in arguing with somebody of such double standards

 

Reclaiming history is one thing, but I don't think the culture of the elves of yesteryear would really be accurately defined as their "true" culture (though I don't really care for the distinction, because it suggests that there's a false one). Their way of life as a nomadic tribe would be truer to them than however it was the elves lived in the days of Arlathan or whatever, insofar that this is what they know and have known for quite some time.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But the Dalish do submit to human rule. They effectively respect human sovereignty, unless the target is ripe and on the same level with them militarily - basically, lashing out at the only targets they can lash out at (the example StreetMagic gives is a good one). 

 

The CEs are more within the power of humans, and so they're more abused, but that doesn't mean the Dalish are somehow standing up to humans more. They've just run away from them, and have built a lifespan that centers around hiding from humans and ceding ground to them whenever they mass. 

 

It's like saying that someone is standing up to bullies by hiding in the bathroom from them. 

 

No they really don't. I genuinely don't know how you can twist the notion of recognizing human nations exist as = "submitting to human rule". City Elves are subjects of human nations governed by human lords and treated as second class citizens among their human populations. The Dalish are not. They govern themselves. It's really as simple as that. That's all it takes to refuse to submit to human rule. The Dalish clans are also nomadic, so the fact that they leave when staying would cause doesn't constitute submitting to human rule. Nomads don't exactly have "territory" so they don't cede it anyone.

 

The Dalish aren't in an endless war against humanity. Them "standing up to a bully" just means that the bully doesn't tell them how to run their lives to abuse them whenever they want.

 

Otherwise, it's like saying Ferelden still submits to Orlesian rule by diplomatically treating with them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Reclaiming history is one thing, but I don't think the culture of the elves of yesteryear would really be accurately defined as their "true" culture (though I don't really care for the distinction, because it suggests that there's a false one). Their way of life as a nomadic tribe would be truer to them than however it was the elves lived in the days of Arlathan or whatever, insofar that this is what they know and have known for quite some time.

Exactly. "True Elven culture" is any culture elves have. Technically there are four elven cultures: Dalish Elf, City Elf, Tevinter Elves(slaves), Qunari Elves. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If you want, you could describe it instead as "Elvhen Culture" since it's the only one from the ancient elven civilization. The others are the culture of minorities assimilated into human and Qunari nations. I tend to use "elf" to describe the race and "elvhen" to describe the people of the civilization.

[In Exile]

No they really don't. I genuinely don't know how you can twist the notion of recognizing human nations exist as = "submitting to human rule". City Elves are subjects of human nations governed by human lords and treated as second class citizens among their human populations. The Dalish are not. They govern themselves. It's really as simple as that. That's all it takes to refuse to submit to human rule. The Dalish clans are also nomadic, so the fact that they leave when staying would cause doesn't constitute submitting to human rule. Nomads don't exactly have "territory" so they don't cede it anyone.

 

The Dalish aren't in an endless war against humanity. Them "standing up to a bully" just means that the bully doesn't tell them how to run their lives to abuse them whenever they want.

 

Otherwise, it's like saying Ferelden still submits to Orlesian rule by diplomatically treating with them.

 

The humans are telling the Dalish how to live their lives. They're not nomadic because they decided as a nation that being nomadic would be awesome. They live a nomadic live because Orlais eradicated their country and their way of life, and gave them the choice of being second class citizens in Orlais or, presumably, death. They chose to live in the forest and hide away from Orlais. They are nomads because that's the only way they can exist without, for example, Orlais or Tevinter eradicated them wholesale. Their whole way of life exists at the whim of humanity because humanity beat them in war. They're in exactly the same position as the CEs - they're just hiding from their abusers better and telling themselves more convincing lies about how in control they are of their own lives. 

 

If a bully tells a kid to never show their face on the playground again, and the kid hides in the bathroom, they're not "standing up" to the bully. They haven't chosen to live in the bathroom. They were made to do it, against their will, and they only continue to do it because they're so irrelevant in the eyes of the bully that they're no longer worth the effort. 

 

It's not just about "recognizing" that human nations exist. It's acceding to their universal sovereignty, running away from their settlements and their military might, and reducing your "resistance" to human rule to talking badly behind their back. The CEs "govern" themselves insofar as they have elders and their own political organization in the Alienage, but it exists at the whim of their human rules. The Dalish are barely removed from that reality - their entire society exists as long as it's so fractured and irrelevant that they're the equivalent of mythical bog people to the various human powers. 

 

The Dalish have better lives than the CE, but the idea that they're standing up to humans is comical. It's a fantasy they've cooked up to make themselves feel better about the abuse they were - and are - being subjected to by the humans. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes, Chantry does. Elven pantheon is considered a heretical belief system and is pursued by Chantry and any other major religion. That's how any government-non-approved religion ends up

 

Except when it doesn't. Like in the vast majority of the Chantry's history, where prostelization of the willing has been the norm. In the three historic cases of what could be called religious dogmatic warfare, all three were (or were at least perceived) as the heretical belief systems threatening and initiating the conflict against the Andrastians. The Tevinter Chantry schism was the return of the patriarchial mageocracy and slavery in Tevinter, a historic threat and nemisis to everyone else on the continent. The fall of the Dales was the climax of a long and bloody conflict the human nations believe the Dales started with an unjustified sacking of Human settlements. The massacre of Qunari following the Qunari invasion was, well, following the Qunari invasion- the greatest and completely unprovoked threat to Thedasian society since the Blights and a devastating war in its own right.

 

 

The Chantry believes in conversion. It does not have a historic policy of trying to spread it by the sword- religious warfare against the non-believers has been the exception, not the norm, and never initiated for the purpose of converting them.

 

Though since you're blaming dalish for trying to save what little is left of their true culture yet you're okay with other nations discriminating against elves and treating them like ****... I see no point in arguing with somebody of such double standards

 

 

When have I ever said I was okay with the other nations discriminating against elves? I have explicitly said that the nations have both moral and practical basis to be expected to open up make themselves open to the elves. City elf assimilation is a two-way street, and one that the nations have been failing the elves in.

 

I have also not blamed the Dalish for trying to save what little is left of the ancient elven culture. I have simply pointed out that they are not actually practicing anything that could be called the ancient elven culture. They are their own culture- and their own cultural fixation has had negative impacts on them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The humans are telling the Dalish how to live their lives. They're not nomadic because they decided as a nation that being nomadic would be awesome. They live a nomadic live because Orlais eradicated their country and their way of life, and gave them the choice of being second class citizens in Orlais or, presumably, death. They chose to live in the forest and hide away from Orlais. They are nomads because that's the only way they can exist without, for example, Orlais or Tevinter eradicated them wholesale. Their whole way of life exists at the whim of humanity because humanity beat them in war. They're in exactly the same position as the CEs - they're just hiding from their abusers better and telling themselves more convincing lies about how in control they are of their own lives. 

 

If a bully tells a kid to never show their face on the playground again, and the kid hides in the bathroom, they're not "standing up" to the bully. They haven't chosen to live in the bathroom. They were made to do it, against their will, and they only continue to do it because they're so irrelevant in the eyes of the bully that they're no longer worth the effort. 

 

It's not just about "recognizing" that human nations exist. It's acceding to their universal sovereignty, running away from their settlements and their military might, and reducing your "resistance" to human rule to talking badly behind their back. The CEs "govern" themselves insofar as they have elders and their own political organization in the Alienage, but it exists at the whim of their human rules. The Dalish are barely removed from that reality - their entire society exists as long as it's so fractured and irrelevant that they're the equivalent of mythical bog people to the various human powers. 

 

The Dalish have better lives than the CE, but the idea that they're standing up to humans is comical. It's a fantasy they've cooked up to make themselves feel better about the abuse they were - and are - being subjected to by the humans. 

 

No they aren't. That's not how it works. Dalish elves do a lot of things that are against human law. City Elves are subjects of humans. Humans are masters of city elf society. They make the laws that govern it. They do not make laws that govern the Dalish elves everyday lives. There is a reason the Grey Wardens have a treaty with the Dalish Clans and not with the city elves. The Dalish clans are nomadic but they are sovereign entities. The City Elves alienages are not. I have no idea how you can't seem to see the difference. The Dalish objectively have more power over their own lives than the city elves.

 

You seemingly keep saying that Dalish aren't standing up to humans because they aren't actively fighting them. But that's never been the point of being Dalish. The point has been to keep the things in their society that the humans outlawed, (such as their religion and their free mage Keepers) which they have.

 

The fact that the humans have superior military might to elves is an immutable fact that nobody can do anything about and no opinion or perspective will change. It doesn't mean that the humans rule over the Dalish elves. But Orlais has superior military might to everyone. The fact that they have the power or influence to push other nations around doesn't mean they rule over them or that Ferelden or Kirkwall still submits to Orlesian rule. Every entity and nation is in some way limited by the circumstances of it's surroundings. Some more than others, but that doesn't mean they're exactly the same as a subject race.

[Asdrubael Vect]

i would like to have Velanna as LI for non-human/elf Inquisitor   i want to romance her from DAO and for me she and Sigrun, Dagna was much better then all Li what we have in DAO

 

i hope that we see Merril in DAI too

[In Exile]

No they aren't. That's not how it works. Dalish elves do a lot of things that are against human law. City Elves are subjects of humans. Humans are masters of city elf society. They make the laws that govern it. They do not make laws that govern the Dalish elves everyday lives. There is a reason the Grey Wardens have a treaty with the Dalish Clans and not with the city elves. The Dalish clans are nomadic but they are sovereign entities. The City Elves alienages are not. I have no idea how you can't seem to see the difference. The Dalish objectively have more power over their own lives than the city elves.

 

You seemingly keep saying that Dalish aren't standing up to humans because they aren't actively fighting them. But that's never been the point of being Dalish. The point has been to keep the things in their society that the humans outlawed, (such as their religion and their free mage Keepers) which they have.

 

The fact that the humans have superior military might to elves is an immutable fact that nobody can do anything about and no opinion or perspective will change. It doesn't mean that the humans rule over the Dalish elves. But Orlais has superior military might to everyone. The fact that they have the power or influence to push other nations around doesn't mean they rule over them or that Ferelden or Kirkwall still submits to Orlesian rule. Every entity and nation is in some way limited by the circumstances of it's surroundings. Some more than others, but that doesn't mean they're exactly the same as a subject race.

 

Dalish society exists in the form it does because they were curbstomped by Orlais. They don't have a homeland because Orlais would have obliterated them off the map if they even tried to settle in land nearby. They're nomads because that's the only way they could survive retaliation from Orlais. Their system of government, the fact that they're defined by their diaspora - all of this is imposed by them on humanity. 

 

The Dalish are self-governing, sure. I certainly never denied that the Dalish govern themselves, or that the CEs have a real government (the very reason I had scare quotes around govern in my previous post was to imply that I thought their notion of governance was a fantasy). But the idea that Dalish governance is something that highlights their autonomy is absurd. Their entire system of government and the very fact that they are nomadic wasn't their choice. 

 

It's not possible to even compare the Dalish with another human nation, because Orlais recognizes those nations as states. They have diplomatic channels. They have borders that they respect. They might cover their territory, but they're on their radar as an actual nation. As far as we can tell, the Dalish are at the level of tribal brigands. 

 

The fact that the GWs request Dalish military aid doesn't mean anything. The GWs have a treaty with the Circle, but I think you'll agree with me that it's absurd to suggest that the Circles were in any way self-governing or independent when the GWs signed that treaty with them. The treaties are the GWs being conciliatory when they need recruits. The only way to get Dalish archers is to deal with them as a people, and the GWs need that. But that doesn't make them a country. 

 

Edit: If the point of being Dalish is to hide from humans and preserve the tattered remains that they have of elven culture, I agree with you, that's totally what they're doing and they're doing it well. But that's very different from the point of being Dalish being not to submit to humans, because the very existence of their culture is based on near total submission to Orlais. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Obviously you have a very different definition of "submission" than I do, because it is not absurd to say the Dalish governing themselves means they have some more autonomy than the city elves. That is the very definition of autonomy. The fact that the Dalish understand and adapt to the reality of their circumstances doesn't mean they submit to Orlais. THAT is what is absurd. After the Fall of Halamshiral the Dalish chose to make moving around their way of life. They had few options but it was still their choice and many of them prefer it that way now.They don't constant try to settle and then flee when humans come running. Isolationism is not submitting to humanity. By the same logic Orzammar submits to the darkspawn because they are forced to hide in their one remaining city while the darkspawn exterminated their entire empire. They might want to settle out in the rest of the deeproads, but they can't because if they try the darkspawn would wipe them out. But for elves and dwarves a reaction is not submission.

 

If you are suggesting that Orlais recognizing the Clans is what makes the difference between being autonomous or not, then Empress Celene tried to reach a formal deal with them in the Masked Empire. They refused but it still meant Celene was willing to treat with them.

 

But whether another nation recognizes something is largely irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Tevinter recognizes Seheron as being part of of the Imperium on their maps, but it's almost entirely rule by Qunari.

 

The Grey Warden's treaty with the Circle is with the Chantry which governs them. They are ultimately the ones that control how many mages the Wardens get.

[Sifr]

If I might interject?

 

It's worth noting that in the Dalish Origin, Marethari explicitly forbids standing up to the townsfolk that rallied against the Dalish, noting that while they could easily wipe out a small village, this would bring the full force of the Ferelden army down upon them. Hence her reasoning to simply scatter to the winds as they have always done.

 

The Dalish might not bend the knee to the humans in the nations that they wander through, but they (or at least most of them) do accept and understand how precarious their situation is when faced with an opponent that is obviously superior to them in every conceivable way, from numbers, strength of arms and territory controlled.

 

While this is technically submission (of a kind), I'd say it has more to do with common sense than anything else.

 

I'd say that the Dalish and the Oath of the Dales is more about rejecting humans believing themselves to have the "Divine Right" to rule over them in terms of their society and culture, rather than reject the fact that the humans obviously do rule over the lands they now reside in.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, yeah, but doesn't nearly everyone "submit" to common sense?

[In Exile]

Obviously you have a very different definition of "submission" than I do, because it is not absurd to say the Dalish governing themselves means they have some more autonomy than the city elves. That is the very definition of autonomy. The fact that the Dalish understand and adapt to the reality of their circumstances doesn't mean they submit to Orlais. THAT is what is absurd. After the Fall of Halamshiral the Dalish chose to make moving around their way of life. They had few options but it was still their choice and many of them prefer it that way now.They don't constant try to settle and then flee when humans come running. Isolationism is not submitting to humanity. By the same logic Orzammar submits to the darkspawn because they are forced to hide in their one remaining city while the darkspawn exterminated their entire empire. They might want to settle out in the rest of the deeproads, but they can't because if they try the darkspawn would wipe them out. But for elves and dwarves a reaction is not submission.

 

If you are suggesting that Orlais recognizing the Clans is what makes the difference between being autonomous or not, then Empress Celene tried to reach a formal deal with them in the Masked Empire. They refused but it still meant Celene was willing to treat with them.

 

But whether another nation recognizes something is largely irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Tevinter recognizes Seheron as being part of of the Imperium on their maps, but it's almost entirely rule by Qunari.

 

The Grey Warden's treaty with the Circle is with the Chantry which governs them. They are ultimately the ones that control how many mages the Wardens get.

The dwarves have, for the most part, submitted to the darkspawn. They've resigned themselves to a slow genocide by the darkspawn. We've seen two exceptions: Bhelen, who wants to unify their society and try to push to restore it, and Branka, who despite being a complete flipping loon, risked her life to recover the Anvil of the Void. Their doing more than just accepting the hopelessness of their situation. 

 

The Dalish accepted the eradication of their homeland and culture by Orlais, and their entire society is build to exist in such a way as to avoid drawing the ire of the humans. Isolationism is submitting to humanity, because it's allowing humanity's whims to decide where they live, how they live, etc. 

 

Let's take an example. The Dalish need halla as part of their way of life. Suppose humans eat up and settle all the best grazing lands. What is the isolationist solution? Take the second best lands - suffer the death of halla, the pain and suffering of the Dalish - for the sake of avoiding further conflict. That's just capitulating without even bothering to fight. 

 

I'm not suggesting that recognizing Orlais - or that any country recognizing them - is what this is about or should be about in terms of autonomy. It's about pushing back. It's about organizing themselves, and taking a stand. 

The only elves we've ever seen standing up to humanity in the games were the CE protagonist, who went after Vaughn despite the way it would obviously go down (without Duncan), the CEs who rebelled, and realistically Zathrian who, again despite being a vindictive loon, justifiably fought back against the murderers who committed atrocities against his family. 

 

The Grey Warden's treaty, based on what the game says, is with the Mages, not the Chantry. 

[In Exile]

I'd say that the Dalish and the Oath of the Dales is more about rejecting humans believing themselves to have the "Divine Right" to rule over them in terms of their society and culture, rather than reject the fact that the humans obviously do rule over the lands they now reside in.

 

That's just a rationalization. Humans do rule over them, and talking badly about them behind their back is exactly what the CEs do in the end. The only difference between the CEs and the Dalish in this regard is that the Dalish hide well enough from the humans that they're mostly left alone. But when your entire society exists at the whim of another group, you're not standing up to them, and you're certainly not rejecting their power or control over you. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well there is really no point in continuing the discussion because we are operating with fundamentally different terminology. You see "submission" as being something competently different from what I see it as. "Not actively fighting a war against someone" doesn't entail "submitting to them."

 

Whether the elves "accept" the destruction of the Dales changes nothing. It happened and nothing any elves do or think will make that any different. That's not what the idea of elven "submission" depends on.

 

Dalish society does not merely exist at the whims of humans. It's like saying the Imperium and Rivain exists at the whims of the Qunari. The Qunari probably could conquer the Imeprium if they really wanted. It doesn't mean the Tevinter Imperium submits to the Qun.