Well there is no point in continuing the discussion because we are operating with fundamentally different terminology. You see "submission" as being something competently different from what I see it as.
The problem that I have with your definition is that there's no basis to distinguish between the Dalish and CEs.
There is a basis. City Elves are subservient to human lords. Dalish Elves react to them. Those aren't the same thing.
There is a basis. City Elves are subservient to human lords. Dalish Elves react to them. Those aren't the same thing.
Your definition of react is meaningless, because it's equivalent to subservient. There are no facts to distinguish them. If the CEs hid better, they'd be in the same position. All the Dalish do is keep their heads down and refuse to make eye contact.
Exactly which definition of submission are you people going by?
Your definition of react is meaningless, because it's equivalent to subservient. There are no facts to distinguish them. If the CEs hid better, they'd be in the same position. All the Dalish do is keep their heads down and refuse to make eye contact.
Not it isn't. I'm genuinely baffled how anyone could equate the two things. The Dalish have control over so many aspects of their lives that the City Elves do not.
Exactly which definition of submission are you people going by?
I'm going by the definition "submission" means recognizing the authority of human lords over their community and accepting that they are part of their society (as a lower class) and following their laws.
That's just a rationalization. Humans do rule over them, and talking badly about them behind their back is exactly what the CEs do in the end. The only difference between the CEs and the Dalish in this regard is that the Dalish hide well enough from the humans that they're mostly left alone. But when your entire society exists at the whim of another group, you're not standing up to them, and you're certainly not rejecting their power or control over you.
Which is what I said?
The Humans do obviously rule over the Dalish, the Dalish's only contention is that the Humans believe that their Maker has given them the Divine Right to walk all over them, erase their culture, heritage and traditions, much as they did to the City Elves.
The Dalish are fighting for their cultural identity and the right to practice it freely, which the Chantry refuses to allow, in it's desire to see the Chant spread to all four corners of the world. The Dalish refusal to accept the Maker is an affront to the die-hard believers (who tend to hold the most power), much like the Qun or the Dwarven ancestral worship.
If the Dwarves didn't control the Lyrium supply and have the Templars by the short-hairs when it comes to feeding their addiction, we'd have probably already seen the Chantry attempt to seize Orzammar long before now.
Not it isn't. I'm genuinely baffled how anyone could equate the two things. The Dalish have control over so many aspects of their lives that the City Elves do not.
I'm going by the definition "submission" means recognizing the authority of human lords over their community and accepting that they are part of their society (as a lower class) and following their laws.
I define submission according to who has power. The Dalish and CEs don't have control over different aspects of their lives - both exist wholly in the sphere of autonomy granted to them by the whim of the humans. The only difference between the Dalish and CEs is that they exist in different physical areas - the Dalish are closer to "out of sight, out of mind", and so seemingly have more control. But their control ends the second their way of life interferes with human rules.
You say the Dalish have "more control" over their lives. That's true, but only in the most limited sense possible, because it's reduced to being too far away from the humans to be worth the trouble and being able to hang on to a few scraps of their broken culture as a result. Let's go to the facts, not empty statements.
The second either group steps outside the narrow boundaries given to them, they face swift and brutal retaliation. The CEs rioted over what happened in the CE origin, and they were brutally suppressed. The Dalish move in on a human village, kill some villagers, and they're hunted down like animals. There's no difference here - the CEs are just closer to the humans, and so more often abused. That's the only difference.
The CEs have a recognized leader: the harhen, or elder. As the DA:O codex explains: "It falls to the hahren to arrange marriages for those without family, to negotiate with the guards when there's trouble, and to act as a sort of mayor and surrogate uncle to the people of the alienage". The CEs self-govern, except when humans become involved in their lives. At that point their elder is just a victim. The same applies to the Keepers. They can self-govern as much as they want, unless humans are involved, in which case they're reduced to a powerless advocate of their people.
So what do we have left that the Dalish do have control over that the CEs don't? Their beliefs, which weren't stripped away from them. They hide in the forest and tell each other scraps of stories because that's everything they have left, and they hide from humans so they humans don't take those away too.
The Humans do obviously rule over the Dalish, the Dalish's only contention is that the Humans believe that their Maker has given them the Divine Right to walk all over them, erase their culture, heritage and traditions, much as they did to the City Elves.
The Dalish are fighting for their cultural identity and the right to practice it freely, which the Chantry refuses to allow, in it's desire to see the Chant spread to all four corners of the world. The Dalish refusal to accept the Maker is an affront to the die-hard believers (who tend to hold the most power), much like the Qun or the Dwarven ancestral worship.
If the Dwarves didn't control the Lyrium supply and have the Templars by the short-hairs when it comes to feeding their addiction, we'd have probably already seen the Chantry attempt to seize Orzammar long before now.
Here's the reality: because the humans do rule over the Dalish, the fact of the matter is that the humans can certainly impose their view of divine right and erase their culture and traditions. The Dalish aren't running up to Val Royeaux and asking the Chantry to erase their culture, but that doesn't mean that they're standing up to them. They've run away so far and hidden so well that it's not worth the trouble for the Chantry to bother doing to them what they did to the CEs.
It's not as if the CEs - who were just citizens of the Dales at one point - massed outside of Val Royeaux and begged to be enslaved. They were crushed completely, and utterly and had their culture erased under the threat of military force. The Dalish continue to exist under the threat of that force.
Here's the reality: because the humans do rule over the Dalish, the fact of the matter is that the humans can certainly impose their view of divine right and erase their culture and traditions. The Dalish aren't running up to Val Royeaux and asking the Chantry to erase their culture, but that doesn't mean that they're standing up to them. They've run away so far and hidden so well that it's not worth the trouble for the Chantry to bother doing to them what they did to the CEs.
It's not as if the CEs - who were just citizens of the Dales at one point - massed outside of Val Royeaux and begged to be enslaved. They were crushed completely, and utterly and had their culture erased under the threat of military force. The Dalish continue to exist under the threat of that force.
Which is what I was saying, nor was I disputing.
For all their talk of refusing to submit, the Dalish are screwed and they know it. As much as some of them want to form La Resistance and reclaim their homeland, they're too few to fight back and are constantly forced to move from foxhole to foxhole in occupied territory.
By that logic everyone in Thedas submits to Orlais because they have the most power in the known world. Loghain would probably prefer to be able to march to Val Royeaux and take a dump on the Imperial Throne, but he can't, therefore Orlais rules over Ferelden.
City Elves are part of a power structure where they are officially second class subjects to humans. City Elves are legally subordinate to human masters within their own society. Dalish aren't because they are outsiders. They are lead by free mages. They can travel where they want. They aren't subjects to legislation that applies to city elves. The City Elves accept that they are servants to human Lords. Dalish Elves are outside of their jurisdiction. Templars tend to avoid taking in Dalish Keepers (even though they are supposed to by law) because fighting through an entire clan is impractical. If Dalish are attacked they can fight back. And they structured their society in such a way as to adapt to the threat of the humans superior military. They are not helpless like the City Elves are. Being weaker than another nation doesn't make mean they rule you. Avoiding them doesn't mean they rule you. Adaptation is not submission.
Anybody who attacks a group of villagers is going to face consequences. Everyone anywhere is subject to cause and effect. But you don't say they are "subservient" to outside factors. Dalish culture isn't based on the desire to fight and reclaim the Dales. It's about staying alive and independent, which they are.
By that logic everyone in Thedas submits to Orlais because they have the most power in the known world. Loghain would probably prefer to be able to march to Val Royeaux and take a dump on the Imperial Throne, but he can't, therefore Orlais rules over Ferelden.
City Elves are part of a power structure where they are officially second class subjects to humans. City Elves are legally subordinate to human masters within their own society. Dalish aren't because they are outsiders. They are lead by free mages. They can travel where they want. They aren't subjects to legislation that applies to city elves. The City Elves accept that they are servants to human Lords. Dalish Elves are outside of their jurisdiction. Templars tend to avoid taking in Dalish Keepers (even though they are supposed to by law) because fighting through an entire clan is impractical. If Dalish are attacked they can fight back. And they structured their society in such a way as to adapt to the threat of the humans superior millitary. Being weaker than another nation doesn't make mean they rule you. Avoiding them doesn't mean they rule you. Adaptation is not submission.
Anybody who attacks a group of villagers is going to face consequences. Everyone anywhere is subject to cause and effect. But you don't say they are "subservient" to outside factors. Dalish culture isn't based on the desire to fight and reclaim the Dales. It's about staying alive and independent, which they are.
Ferelden can't compare to the Dalish: they evicted the Orlesians. They were conquered, occupied, and forced them out through military force. The Orlesians haven't returned since that time. Ferelden took its land back, reasserted its culture, and forced Orlais to back home. It's not about preference. It's about power. What Ferelden did is called standing up. What the Dalish are doing is called bending over.
CEs aren't legally subordinate. That slavery, which we know doesn't exist. They're second-class citizens because of the power structure. We know this from Magistrate's Orders questline in DA2, where the CEs are clearly the beneficiaries of the same legal system that's applied in a racist way. Like it was IRL against minorities a long time ago, and still is in some places, even in the West.
The Dalish can't travel where they want. What happens if they travel to a human village? Can they go shopping in Denerim? What if they want to buy some grain in Lothering? Can they book a ship from Gwaren to Kirkwall? No, they can't. They can't freely travel anymore than a fugitive is "free" to travel. Their freedom to travel is simply to stay outside of the sight of the humans. The CEs can freely travel too - we have plenty of examples. There were CEs going to join the host in Ostagar. In Kirkwall, the CEs from the Magistrate's Order quest were not only wealthy, they clearly and freely able to leave the city. The CEs that go from Alienage to Alienage to get married are clearly free to travel. The Alienage Culture codex outright shows what you're saying is false here:
But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
The problem here is racism, but it's not unequal legal treatment nor is it the legal restriction on their ability to travel outside of the alienage.
You say that the Dalish are free from human laws - they're not. If a Dalish walks up to a human in the middle of a city and stabs them in the throat, they're taken in for murder. They're as free from human laws as a large bunch of brigands are - they're free for so long as the humans aren't going to move in military force against them.
Your own example of what the templars do is the best one - they clearly and categorically assert their right to capture Keepers, and the only reason they don't is because of the military effort involved. In DA2 when they're seeking Feynriel they capture and torture hunters, and they're about to kill another group of hunters unless Hawke intervenes.
Avoiding them is submission. They rule you. They define where you live. They define how you live. They define where you go.
But you don't say they are "subservient" to outside factors. Dalish culture isn't based on the desire to fight and reclaim the Dales. It's about staying alive and independent, which they are.
That's what the CEs are doing. They're "adapting" to the humans, and they're "staying alive" by keeping their head down. The Dalish just do it from further away and pat themselves on the back each time they run away from humans.
Ferelden can't compare to the Dalish: they evicted the Orlesians. They were conquered, occupied, and forced them out through military force. The Orlesians haven't returned since that time. Ferelden took its land back, reasserted its culture, and forced Orlais to back home. It's not about preference. It's about power. What Ferelden did is called standing up. What the Dalish are doing is called bending over.
CEs aren't legally subordinate. That slavery, which we know doesn't exist. They're second-class citizens because of the power structure. We know this from Magistrate's Orders questline in DA2, where the CEs are clearly the beneficiaries of the same legal system that's applied in a racist way. Like it was IRL against minorities a long time ago, and still is in some places, even in the West.
The Dalish can't travel where they want. What happens if they travel to a human village? Can they go shopping in Denerim? What if they want to buy some grain in Lothering? Can they book a ship from Gwaren to Kirkwall? No, they can't. They can't freely travel anymore than a fugitive is "free" to travel. Their freedom to travel is simply to stay outside of the sight of the humans. The CEs can freely travel too - we have plenty of examples. There were CEs going to join the host in Ostagar. In Kirkwall, the CEs from the Magistrate's Order quest were not only wealthy, they clearly and freely able to leave the city. The CEs that go from Alienage to Alienage to get married are clearly free to travel. The Alienage Culture codex outright shows what you're saying is false here:
But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
The problem here is racism, but it's not unequal legal treatment nor is it the legal restriction on their ability to travel outside of the alienage.
You say that the Dalish are free from human laws - they're not. If a Dalish walks up to a human in the middle of a city and stabs them in the throat, they're taken in for murder. They're as free from human laws as a large bunch of brigands are - they're free for so long as the humans aren't going to move in military force against them.
Your own example of what the templars do is the best one - they clearly and categorically assert their right to capture Keepers, and the only reason they don't is because of the military effort involved. In DA2 when they're seeking Feynriel they capture and torture hunters, and they're about to kill another group of hunters unless Hawke intervenes.
Avoiding them is submission. They rule you. They define where you live. They define how you live. They define where you go.
That's what the CEs are doing. They're "adapting" to the humans, and they're "staying alive" by keeping their head down. The Dalish just do it from further away and pat themselves on the back each time they run away from humans.
Orlais has laws restricting the freedom of elves. Celene references them directly when talking to Briala in the Dalish Camp. And no, avoiding them is not submission. It just isn't. I don't know how to break it down any simpler. That's just not what the definition of submission is. The Dalish have plenty of free space to roam in Thedas. City Elves can't survive by going anywhere in the same way.The fact Dalish have certain limits that others don't doesn't mean they submit to human rule. But they can and do trade with places like Lothering. Ashalle was also able to travel to Denerim to see the Hero of Ferelden without any trouble. What Ferelden did isn't any different than what the Dalish do except in scale. The Dalish reasserted their culture for themselves, that's all they needed and doing so is against human laws.The City Elves accepted that they are the subjects of human nations.
The Dalish are able to get away with having free mages in Chantry lands because they are strong enough that the templars can't just waltz right up to them and take them to the Circle. If Hawke hadn't intervened you don't know the outcome of the fight between the templars and the hunters.
The example you used about murdering a random civilian applies to everyone in all of Thedas. That can't be the criteria for what it takes to submit to the rule of a human nation. If Tevinter slavers were caught anywhere else in Thedas they would be executed. The Imperium does not submit to any other nation.
I define submission according to who has power. The Dalish and CEs don't have control over different aspects of their lives - both exist wholly in the sphere of autonomy granted to them by the whim of the humans. The only difference between the Dalish and CEs is that they exist in different physical areas - the Dalish are closer to "out of sight, out of mind", and so seemingly have more control. But their control ends the second their way of life interferes with human rules.
You say the Dalish have "more control" over their lives. That's true, but only in the most limited sense possible, because it's reduced to being too far away from the humans to be worth the trouble and being able to hang on to a few scraps of their broken culture as a result. Let's go to the facts, not empty statements.
The second either group steps outside the narrow boundaries given to them, they face swift and brutal retaliation. The CEs rioted over what happened in the CE origin, and they were brutally suppressed. The Dalish move in on a human village, kill some villagers, and they're hunted down like animals. There's no difference here - the CEs are just closer to the humans, and so more often abused. That's the only difference.
The CEs have a recognized leader: the harhen, or elder. As the DA:O codex explains: "It falls to the hahren to arrange marriages for those without family, to negotiate with the guards when there's trouble, and to act as a sort of mayor and surrogate uncle to the people of the alienage". The CEs self-govern, except when humans become involved in their lives. At that point their elder is just a victim. The same applies to the Keepers. They can self-govern as much as they want, unless humans are involved, in which case they're reduced to a powerless advocate of their people.
So what do we have left that the Dalish do have control over that the CEs don't? Their beliefs, which weren't stripped away from them. They hide in the forest and tell each other scraps of stories because that's everything they have left, and they hide from humans so they humans don't take those away too.
Nothing of what you say is actually submission though.
The humans may have the power, but the Dalish have still refused to submit to human laws, customs and beliefs. The fact that the mere existance of the Dalish breaks all three should be more than enough evidence.
I think we hit a pretty big impasse and we're just talking in circles. Shall we agree to disagree, and part on friendly terms? 
I love that idea. I really would like to move on from this tangent.
1:She's not the queen of elves
2:She's a garbage character
3:It would destroy all of her character dev in DA:A
Did I say she was a garbage character?
How would her potential inclusion destroy her past character development? 
Wouldn't that be completely dependant on the manner of her inclusion?
1:She's not the queen of elves
2:She's a garbage character
3:It would destroy all of her character dev in DA:A
Did I say she was a garbage character?
But the only other candidate is...Merrill. 
To me the closest historical equivalent to the Dalish would be Native American tribes that were forced onto reservations. They retain their own customs and laws to a certain extent, but aren't exactly independent either. The Dalish in some respects are just telling themselves what they want to hear when they go on about never submitting. They already have, just not in a similar manner as the City Elves.
See, I've always thought of the dalish as being derived from the roma; nomadic, and thought of as bandits and thieves by the world at large. In contrast to the city elves, who are more like the jews who were forced into ghettos.
1:She's not the queen of elves
2:She's a garbage character
3:It would destroy all of her character dev in DA:A
Did I say she was a garbage character?
Really? How exactly is she a garbage character? Seriously why even come to this thread if you have nothing meaningful to say.
.
Personally I don't think Velanna should have anything to do with the elven uprising in Orlais. Her storyline revolves around reuniting with her sister. She has a chip on her shoulder about the elves, but that isn't the central conflict with her character.Which leads me to the conclusion that she shouldn't appear in Inquisition; she should show up in a game where the darkspawn play a bigger role so her inclusion and her story are less out of place.
I agree with this.
Whatever Velanna may have been at the start of Awakening, at the end of it she is a Grey Warden. They should keep her on that trajectory and if she were to return at all, for it to have a greater influence on her personality. Grey Warden concerns should trump Elven concerns.
The only possible exception is the epilogue where the Warden kills the architect and Velanna blames the Warden for never seeing her sister again. Perhaps in the aftermath of that epilogue I can see her also resenting the order itself, deserting entirely, and returning to the elves. In all others though, she should still be a Warden.
That isn't to say I'd be entirely against a cameo. Just that if she does reappear in DA:I I hope it is something related to the Wardens, and she has a reason within the story to be there.
Really? How exactly is she a garbage character? Seriously why even come to this thread if you have nothing meaningful to say.
Because she's unlikable. And we aint having none of that.
I agree with this.
Whatever Velanna may have been at the start of Awakening, at the end of it she is a Grey Warden. They should keep her on that trajectory and if she were to return at all, for it to have a greater influence on her personality. Grey Warden concerns should trump Elven concerns.
The only possible exception is the epilogue where the Warden kills the architect and Velanna blames the Warden for never seeing her sister again. Perhaps in the aftermath of that epilogue I can see her also resenting the order itself, deserting entirely, and returning to the elves. In all others though, she should still be a Warden.
That isn't to say I'd be entirely against a cameo. Just that if she does reappear in DA:I I hope it is something related to the Wardens, and she has a reason within the story to be there.
Perhaps they should but that doesn't mean they will. Individual wardens can still make all kinds of choices. Anders cast aside his warden duties to help mages and Velanna was initially planned to be in the second game in his place wasn't she?
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