823 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Haunter]

You misunderstood my words. I'm not talking about stuff like that. I mean going to Dalish, proving that you can hunt, or tend the cattle, clean, cook or do smithing. In general - be helpful to the clan, which has to survive in the wild forests and deserts. Respect their culture and do not bow to the human culture. That's it

 

As for the whole Thedas. Well, there you do need at least a good rebellion

In Masked Empire the Dalish clan we see has 50 elves. Total. Counting children. Adding a single CE also takes away a useful Dalish for a while, because instead of performing their usual tasks at full efficiency they will be splitting their time between training the new guys and their normal duties. How many CE could that Clan realistically take in, even if the CE they take in weren't completely useless?

The CE outnumber the Dalish by a large margin, it is severely impractical for the CE to mass migrate to the Dalish.

[Chari]

Debatable,

 

***Maybe Minor Spoiler, but not really a spoiler, don't read if you don't want to hear a single word related in anyway to Masked Empire***

in Masked Empire Gaspard states that he attempted several times to gather a small army to hunt Dalish, but was blocked by Celene. What this means is that under every other emperor/empress hunting Dalish clans for no particular reason other than they were there is fairly common. CE at least have some rights (very limited and circumstantial I'll admit, but nobles don't run through Alienages killing willy-nilly as that leads to costly and short lived rebellions), whereas Dalish can be attacked by nations who don't want them (everyone except Rivain and maybe Ferelden) and Templars (who quite thoroughly dislike mages outside their control) and bandits (although I'd guess that bandits don't fare so well against trained elves).

 

Also, if you care to look at real world examples of nomadic peoples (hungarian tribes, Romani, Early Slavic cultures) they rarely faired well once so-called 'civilization' made its way to them. If you think about it, the Orlesians dislike having a few hundred (maybe a very few thousand) Dalish wandering through unused territory in the periphery of their empire. Imagine if thousands (even tens-of-thousands) of City Elves left the cities and joined the Dalish? Having that many people wandering unchecked through their borders and oweing no loyalty to Orlais would be a serious cause for concern. If the CE did migrate out of cities I'm absolutely certain that the Orlesians would march on them and force them back to the cities (while making numerous examples of them).

 

One last point - Living off the land, as the Dalish do, without agriculture has a very high cost on the land. There is a reason why there were so few native Americans in America (per square mile) as compared to the population of New England just prior to the revolutionary war. The land can only support so many people, agriculture can support a whole lot more (even basic agriculture like Thedas would have), so having more than a handful of CE leave would be impractical and would simply result in hundreds and potentially thousands of death due to starvation. 

I mean dalish themselves. Without thousands and thousands of city elves who may join them. Not to mention they also only take folk who can potentially take care of themselves. No lazy asses

 

Yeah, yeah, it's all relevant. But in the future. Right now city elves' future doesn't look very bright either. Especially after TMI events

[The Night Haunter]

Petty rebenge? His daughter was raped and his son was murdered. Petty revenge?

Yes, in the end it bit him back. But in the beginning and in the middle he had every reason to be angry

 

Well, tough luck, I guess

Seeing as the 'middle' lasted through several generations of humans, all of whom past the first had absolutely nothing to do with his loss, I'd say his revenge was completely unjustified. Otherwise I'd say all Americans owe a giant blood debt to the native Americans because our ancestors killed their ancestors.

[Chari]

In Masked Empire the Dalish clan we see has 50 elves. Total. Counting children. Adding a single CE also takes away a useful Dalish for a while, because instead of performing their usual tasks at full efficiency they will be splitting their time between training the new guys and their normal duties. How many CE could that Clan realistically take in, even if the CE they take in weren't completely useless?

The CE outnumber the Dalish by a large margin, it is severely impractical for the CE to mass migrate to the Dalish.

Diffirent clans have diffirent sizes.

As I said before - I know. But the dalish still do accept people, in manageble amounts. They do have their own limits as well. Basic common sense

[Saints]

[quote name="Fiery Phoenix" post="16609682" timestamp="1400397542".

That said, I actually kind of like this discrepancy between the two elven races myself.[/quote]I pretty sure there are not "2" Elven races. Just Elves that live in cities and elves that live in the forest that think city elves are second class because they don't follow their ways.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Petty rebenge? His daughter was raped and his son was murdered. Petty revenge?

Yes, in the end it bit him back. But in the beginning and in the middle he had every reason to be angry

 

Well, tough luck, I guess

 

The humans he cursed currently weren't the rapists, though? He punished multiple people for the crimes of a few?

 

I agree the rapists and murderers should be punished but what about the generations of humans after? Why did they deserve to be punished?

[Chari]

Seeing as the 'middle' lasted through several generations of humans, all of whom past the first had absolutely nothing to do with his loss, I'd say his revenge was completely unjustified. Otherwise I'd say all Americans owe a giant blood debt to the native Americans because our ancestors killed their ancestors.

Not the same, since nowadays the native Indians are treated as equal by law and culturally and as far as I know are given some kind of compensation

In Thedas people still treat elves like dirt and will for many centuries to come

[Chari]

The humans he cursed currently weren't the rapists, though? He punished multiple people for the crimes of a few?

 

I agree the rapists and murderers should be punished but what about the generations of humans after? Why did they deserve to be punished?

This is Bresilian Forest. I'd question the sanity of any person who wants to live there. Even Dalish stay there for a short amount of time. The place is cursed

[Fiery Phoenix]

I pretty sure there are not "2" Elven races. Just Elves that live in cities and elves that live in the forest that think city elves are second class because they don't follow their ways.

That's what I meant.

 

But thanks for pointing it out.

[xXxshemlifexXx]

I mean dalish themselves. Without thousands and thousands of city elves who may join them. Not to mention they also only take folk who can potentially take care of themselves. No lazy asses

 

Or elderly, sickly, children, disabled or traumatized

 

Only the best for the master race amirite

[Chari]

Or elderly, sickly, children, disabled or traumatized

 

Only the best for the master race amirite

Lol, thanks for makin up stuff I never said in the first place :3

 

They treat their sickly, children and eldery with respect. And because they have mages-Keepers, they can actually heal them

No lazy asses allowed, though. You have to help your family whether you can. Children can do cooking, eldery are history recorders etc

[The Night Haunter]

I mean dalish themselves. Without thousands and thousands of city elves who may join them. Not to mention they also only take folk who can potentially take care of themselves. No lazy asses

 

Yeah, yeah, it's all relevant. But in the future. Right now city elves' future doesn't look very bright either. Especially after TMI events

Sure, each Dalish Clan does well enough on their own, and can take in a few refugees from time to time, but that doesn't, and will never, provide a lasting solution to the 'elven problem'. The CE will always grow at a faster rate than the Dalish and the Dalish will never be large enough to absorb enough CE refugees to provide any meaningful difference to the lives of the average elf.

It is also stated in TME that the Dalish have absolutely no plan to try and take back Halamshiral or any other potential homeland. They prefer to wait for the humans to magically disappear on their own (by killing each off is what Felassan says), so the Dalish on their own will never restart the 'landed' elven society.

Thus the only lasting solution to the plight of CE must come from the CE themselves, and potentially human sympathizers. 

 

I will admit that for an individual elf, the best solution is to leave and try for the Dalish, but that elf is being extremely selfish, ignoring his neighbors and his friends and family to try for his own success. If the smart/talented elves leave for the Dalish who is left to help the CE rebel and gain their place in society? Every elf has a responsibility to help their fellows (a responsibility the Dalish ignore, cause they're arrogant and selish pricks). <- my personal feelings about how humans should feel in the real world bleeding over to the elves lol

 

So to sum up I am talking about what is best for all elves, while you are talking about what is best for an elf.

[The Night Haunter]

This is Bresilian Forest. I'd question the sanity of any person who wants to live there. Even Dalish stay there for a short amount of time. The place is cursed

Because of Zathrian (note solely his fault, he just took advantage of a weak fade to make it even worse). If he hadn't done that then the place wouldn't be as bad. And besides if people shouldn't move to someplace difficult NA would never have been settled by Europeans (might've worked out better for the natives, but the world would be a very different place). That is how frontiers are pushed, adventurous and hardy people move to where the hardship is and 'civilize' it, making it easier for further settlers, which creates new frontiers, pattern repeats.

I agree Zathrian had the right to kill the men (and potentially even the village) that killed his daughter, but not their children. That makes him the same as the men he is killing. Slaying a monster by becoming a monster doesn't actually slay the monster, it simply replaces it with a different monster. He should have taken the high road, killed the men of the village and left the rest alone. Grief doesn't excuse mass murder.

[Chari]

Sure, each Dalish Clan does well enough on their own, and can take in a few refugees from time to time, but that doesn't, and will never, provide a lasting solution to the 'elven problem'. The CE will always grow at a faster rate than the Dalish and the Dalish will never be large enough to absorb enough CE refugees to provide any meaningful difference to the lives of the average elf.

It is also stated in TME that the Dalish have absolutely no plan to try and take back Halamshiral or any other potential homeland. They prefer to wait for the humans to magically disappear on their own (by killing each off is what Felassan says), so the Dalish on their own will never restart the 'landed' elven society.

Thus the only lasting solution to the plight of CE must come from the CE themselves, and potentially human sympathizers. 

 

I will admit that for an individual elf, the best solution is to leave and try for the Dalish, but that elf is being extremely selfish, ignoring his neighbors and his friends and family to try for his own success. If the smart/talented elves leave for the Dalish who is left to help the CE rebel and gain their place in society? Every elf has a responsibility to help their fellows (a responsibility the Dalish ignore, cause they're arrogant and selish pricks). <- my personal feelings about how humans should feel in the real world bleeding over to the elves lol

 

So to sum up I am talking about what is best for all elves, while you are talking about what is best for an elf.

This I also mentioned. Fighting humans have never been a good idea. Elves always lost. I guess they're just bad at war. As one girl from BRC said, it's probably due to elven peaceful nature. They're not perfect, but they do not like conflicts and do not fare well in big-scaled wars.

Even while it was the elves who taught the anicent magisters many powerful magics, they still lost to them. Same with the Dales

And no, my solution was never "run to the dalish and that's it"

I said before: the problem won't be solves unless city elves and dalish elves help each other. City elves understand human. Dalish elves are capable warriors. But the first are cowardly and ignorant, the second are prideful and stubborn

So, in the end. Only a miracle can help them all

[Oasis_JS]

Do you think we'll see the Queen of the Elves herself Velanna in Inquisition? I know many people don't like her character but I actually loved her and the way she was written. She was very brilliant. What do you guys think could/might happen to her if she were to show up in Inquisition? Possibly as a Grey Warden, Searching for her sister or maybe in the Elf Rebellion?

Credit to VannesaSketch over at Tumblr.

That would be neat.. as for my game play.. I left her as a caring warden..who in one game play. pretty much save the human village and so on. where the other one. she was bitterly mad at my warden.. the more I think about.. the last which was my new main city elf play.. the text gave me both..saying how she help save people , but when at the caves she went after a shadow.

I would enjoy to meet her again. I mean the main play one..she was left as a caring person during my city elf.  For my human warden. she gave the vibe that she accepted my human warden as a friend. wouldn't judge humans or at least not all of them . haha

 

hmm..she would be looking for her sister.. damn that would play a great dlc or side quest ^^

Modifié par Oasis_JS, 18 mai 2014 - 07:58 .

[Chari]

Because of Zathrian (note solely his fault, he just took advantage of a weak fade to make it even worse). If he hadn't done that then the place wouldn't be as bad. And besides if people shouldn't move to someplace difficult NA would never have been settled by Europeans (might've worked out better for the natives, but the world would be a very different place). That is how frontiers are pushed, adventurous and hardy people move to where the hardship is and 'civilize' it, making it easier for further settlers, which creates new frontiers, pattern repeats.

I agree Zathrian had the right to kill the men (and potentially even the village) that killed his daughter, but not their children. That makes him the same as the men he is killing. Slaying a monster by becoming a monster doesn't actually slay the monster, it simply replaces it with a different monster. He should have taken the high road, killed the men of the village and left the rest alone. Grief doesn't excuse mass murder.

No. The Bresillian forest was always like this, read the codex. The Bressilian forest show no mercy to anyone: humans or elves, dwarves of qunari. it's a morbid place

He didn't personally kill them all. He only turned the criminals into werewolves

[Felya87]

At first I didn't like Velanna. But she have a cute evolution as a character during Awakening (at least with my CE). She is willing to learn both from the others and from her mistakes. In many way, I classify her as a "Dalish Morrigan".

 

She pass from "I hate human and all that's not Dalish" to "I'm really only envious because humans know so much about their past, while the Dalish don't". both with the Warden and with the others characters. I find cute her banter with Nathaniel, that reveal she have a weakness to being flattered as a woman. (maybe her abrasive personality and being the First have always distanced her from being courted or complimented as a woman)

 

I think she have more evolution as a character in the few hours of Awakening than for example Merrill in the entire DA2. It would be great to met her in DAI, and maybe see how she changed due to the Warden's actions.

Velanna have a potentially different way of seeing things than Merrill about the Dalish. She is more set in grow from the Dalish ways, change and evolve from what they have left of their history, while Merrill just want to restore old knowlenge, but really whithout much thinking of the future.

 

Velanna is what I would like see the Dalish became: evolve from the scraps of their history, creating a new elven culture, and not being the walking incomplete vagant museum they are.

 

just my though.

[Chari]

Velanna is what I would like see the Dalish became: evolve from the scraps of their history, creating a new elven culture, and not being the walking incomplete vagant museum they are.

 

Sadly true. The more dalish try to dig our their darkest past, the deeper they're stuck in blood and misery. Still, some knowledge should be preserved. Like valasslins and language.

But magic? Run from that stuff at first sight

[The Night Haunter]

This I also mentioned. Fighting humans have never been a good idea. Elves always lost. I guess they're just bad at war. As one girl from BRC said, it's probably due to elven peaceful nature. They're not perfect, but they do not like conflicts and do not fare well in big-scaled wars.

Even while it was the elves who taught the anicent magisters many powerful magics, they still lost to them. Same with the Dales

And no, my solution was never "run to the dalish and that's it"

I said before: the problem won't be solves unless city elves and dalish elves help each other. City elves understand human. Dalish elves are capable warriors. But the first are cowardly and ignorant, the second are prideful and stubborn

So, in the end. Only a miracle can help them all

Then we are in agreement. Except I believe humans can help the elves, given a minor miracle.

 

******Fairly big The Masked Empire Spoilers below. DO NOT READ ANYTHING BEYOND THIS If you don't want to spoil TME**********

I believe Celene would have (if Briala had sided with her in the end) helped the elves. She wouldn't have fixed everything, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and social justice certainly isn't brought about in a short period either. Her reforms would have started what could become a multi-generational effort to bring equality(ish) to the elves. There aren't enough elves (even if CE and Dalish combined) to gain their freedom/equality on their own, they need the support of human nobles as well to have a real chance at social reforms.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You misunderstood my words. I'm not talking about stuff like that. I mean going to Dalish, proving that you can hunt, or tend the cattle, clean, cook or do smithing. In general - be helpful to the clan, which has to survive in the wild forests and deserts. Respect their culture and do not bow to the human culture. That's it

 

As for the whole Thedas. Well, there you do need at least a good rebellion

And again, you can do all that without embracing the Dalish culture. Whether you believe in the Maker or the Pantheon, a good archer is a good archer, a good cook a good cook, etc. 

[The Night Haunter]

*snip*

Velanna is what I would like see the Dalish became: evolve from the scraps of their history, creating a new elven culture, and not being the walking incomplete vagant museum they are.

 

just my though.

This is what I believe would be best for the elves too, to wipe the slate and start fresh rather than stagnating in a past that will never be again. However from the perspective of an interesting story that is the least interesting path, having the Dalish keep digging for their past glory provides the most possible plot paths for the writers and so is the better path for the story to take (at least until the DA series gets closer to its conclusion, assuming such a thing ever occurs).

[Chari]

Then we are in agreement. Except I believe humans can help the elves, given a minor miracle.

 

******Fairly big The Masked Empire Spoilers below. DO NOT READ ANYTHING BEYOND THIS If you don't want to spoil TME**********

I believe Celene would have (if Briala had sided with her in the end) helped the elves. She wouldn't have fixed everything, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and social justice certainly isn't brought about in a short period either. Her reforms would have started what could become a multi-generational effort to bring equality(ish) to the elves. There aren't enough elves (even if CE and Dalish combined) to gain their freedom/equality on their own, they need the support of human nobles as well to have a real chance at social reforms.

They definitely can. But only if elves do something to find these sympathisers. Like feminism and anti-racism movements, without powerful allies they wouldn't stand a chance. Sadly, the society understand two languages: money and power

 

And again, you can do all that without embracing the Dalish culture. Whether you believe in the Maker or the Pantheon, a good archer is a good archer, a good cook a good cook, etc. 

 

Dalish are especially good archers. One of the best in Thedas. But Dalish try to preserve the last bits of culture they lost long time ago. If they start breeding with humans, replacing their culture with human one's, then there won't be anything left. Elves will become ones-who-live-with-humans-and-have-pointy-ears. And only unless they totally disappear due to genetics

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Dalish are especially good archers. One of the best in Thedas. But Dalish try to preserve the last bits of culture they lost long time ago. If they start breeding with humans, replacing their culture with human one's, then there won't be anything left. Elves will become ones-who-live-with-humans-and-have-pointy-ears. And only unless they totally disappear due to genetics

So you think the City Elves will force there culture onto the Dalish, and that it is wrong? And yet the Dalish forcing their culture onto the City Elves is not only fine but should be encouraged? You have to see the double standard and hypocrisy in that. 

[Oasis_JS]

At first I didn't like Velanna. But she have a cute evolution as a character during Awakening (at least with my CE). She is willing to learn both from the others and from her mistakes. In many way, I classify her as a "Dalish Morrigan".

 

She pass from "I hate human and all that's not Dalish" to "I'm really only envious because humans know so much about their past, while the Dalish don't". both with the Warden and with the others characters. I find cute her banter with Nathaniel, that reveal she have a weakness to being flattered as a woman. (maybe her abrasive personality and being the First have always distanced her from being courted or complimented as a woman)

 

I think she have more evolution as a character in the few hours of Awakening than for example Merrill in the entire DA2. It would be great to met her in DAI, and maybe see how she changed due to the Warden's actions.

Velanna have a potentially different way of seeing things than Merrill about the Dalish. She is more set in grow from the Dalish ways, change and evolve from what they have left of their history, while Merrill just want to restore old knowlenge, but really whithout much thinking of the future.

 

Velanna is what I would like see the Dalish became: evolve from the scraps of their history, creating a new elven culture, and not being the walking incomplete vagant museum they are.

 

just my though.

wow.. nicely said =D way better then I can put it. haha. Yeah I enjoy her evolution and her fun chats with Nath.

Now i want here to pop out more. even if it's during a dlc or expansion of DA:I.. hopefully they have her already added in the main DA:I game , hehe so i can meet her right away ^^

[Chari]

So you think the City Elves will force there culture onto the Dalish, and that it is wrong? And yet the Dalish forcing their culture onto the City Elves is not only fine but should be encouraged? You have to see the double standard and hypocrisy in that. 

City elves have almost no culture of their own. They adapted and accepted human culture. Besides no one forces them to accept the ancient elven lore (which is the only true elven lore we have so far). But since it is Dalish clan, they have every right to set some rules.

Don't likes rules - don't join. It's that easy