249 réponses à ce sujet

[Mockingword]

I literally do not understand a single thing you just said.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I literally do not understand a single thing you just said.

Well i doubt that you would understand as you call templars paranoid monsters when it is very far from truth...

[Solas]

Komandor: ???

[MisterJB]

Who would have ever guessed that a society of drug addicts would end up taking a much more dangerous drug and start killing everyone.

 

Truly this was the surprise of the century.

Considering that we've never been told that the body naturally gains an immunity to Lyrium thus making it necessary to continuously increase the dosage in order to produce the same effect, there was absolutely nothing that indicated Templars would ever use a "much more dangerous drug" anymore than there was that mages would end up using much more dangerous magic for no other reason than it is more powerful.

[MisterJB]

I wonder just how receptive pro-mages will, from now on, be to having their own arguments used against them?

 

Mage uses blood magic? Well, it's the Templar's fault for not leaving them alone, they forced their hand.

 

Now Templars use Red Lyrium? It was the mage's fault for escaping en-masse, they forced their hand.

[azarhal]

I just remembered that Bartrand was force feeding his soldiers regular lyrium so they could hear the song of the idol as well.

These people ended becoming crazy as well.

 

Even normal Templars eventually go crazy. You meet one Templar like that in DAO, he's guarding the Cathedral's doors with another templar and he sound like he is hearing voices...

[Inprea]

I wonder just how receptive pro-mages will, from now on, be to having their own arguments used against them?

 

Mage uses blood magic? Well, it's the Templar's fault for not leaving them alone, they forced their hand.

 

Now Templars use Red Lyrium? It was the mage's fault for escaping en-masse, they forced their hand.

The templars as an organization were seeking to take mages and lock them away or do worse to them. Not only separating them from their birth families but also taking children from mage parents. The mages aren't making any such organized effort.

 

Unless the mages start hunting down and imprisoning templars, forcing them into death matches with demons and stripping them of parts of themselves I don't see that as an accurate comparison. It's like comparing an act of aggression to self defense.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Hipster Templars?....


PRE ORDER CANCELLED!!!!1!!!!!!1!!!

[EmperorSahlertz]

The templars as an organization were seeking to take mages and lock them away or do worse to them. Not only separating them from their birth families but also taking children from mage parents. The mages aren't making any such organized effort.

 

Unless the mages start hunting down and imprisoning templars, forcing them into death matches with demons and stripping them of parts of themselves I don't see that as an accurate comparison. It's like comparing an act of aggression to self defense.

It was Mages that came up with the Harrowing, and the ritual is apparently much older than the Templar Order... But sure, blame the Templars for that aswell.

[mikeymoonshine]

I wonder just how receptive pro-mages will, from now on, be to having their own arguments used against them?

 

Mage uses blood magic? Well, it's the Templar's fault for not leaving them alone, they forced their hand.

 

Now Templars use Red Lyrium? It was the mage's fault for escaping en-masse, they forced their hand.

 

That comparison does not work, at all. Being backed into a corner with no way out and turning to dangerous magic to protect yourself is not the same thing as turning to red lyrium just so you can recapture or kill a bunch of mages. The Templars have other options and they are the ones choosing to go after the mages so their hands are not in fact being forced, at least not by mages.

 

Also we all know that the Templars are not responsible for all use of blood magic but the fact is that the way they treat mages can lead to the mages turning to dangerous magic and making the very thing the Templars are meant to be there to protect against, more likely. 

[MisterJB]

That comparison does not work, at all. Being backed into a corner with no way out and turning to dangerous magic to protect yourself is not the same thing as turning to red lyrium just so you can recapture or kill a bunch of mages. The Templars have other options and they are the ones choosing to go after the mages so their hands are not in fact being forced, at least not by mages.

 

Also we all know that the Templars are not responsible for all use of blood magic but the fact is that the way they treat mages can lead to the mages turning to dangerous magic and making the very thing the Templars are meant to be there to protect against, more likely. 

 

Members of both groups are forced by the other into situations where they feel they have no choice but to resort to a dark power in order to prevent a situation they feel will come to pass due to the other's actions; often what they fear is for their safety.

Mages may feel the restrictions of the Circle are unnaceptable and will lead to opression while Templars may feel that the freedom of mages is unnaceptable and will lead to normal people becoming victims of magical violence and opression.

And both groups are not entirely wrong; just like being in the Circle will lead to certain freedom being revoked, it is also inevitable that, should mages be free, many people will become victims to magical abuse and Abominations; even if the mages, according to only themselves, do not make an organized effort to achieve that.

 

The comparison works.

[mikeymoonshine]

Members of both groups are forced by the other into situations where they feel they have no choice but to resort to a dark power in order to prevent a situation they feel will come to pass due to the other's actions; often what they fear is for their safety.

Mages may feel the restrictions of the Circle are unnaceptable and will lead to opression while Templars may feel that the freedom of mages is unnaceptable and will lead to normal people becoming victims of magical violence and opression.

And both groups are not entirely wrong; just like being in the Circle will lead to certain freedom being revoked, it is also inevitable that, should mages be free, many people will become victims to magical abuse and Abominations; even if the mages, according to only themselves, do not make an organized effort to achieve that.

 

The comparison works.

 

The Templars have far more options than the mages do, (or did before the escaped).

 

The main problem I have with your point is the word "forced" because the Templars can do other things to solve the situations. The mages couldn't really do anything to change things, remember that we are talking about individual mages who turned to blood magic, not all mages as a group. 

 

So no, the comparison does not work. 

[MisterJB]

I think that excuse sucks.

 

You play DA2 with the capabilities of an apostate who seems to know how to control and master themselves. You also can help Feynriel do the same...who probably deals with things worse than anyone.

 

But every other mage just gives in to demons. I hate that. Same goes for any Templar who needs a crutch.

Not every other mage. But it is impossible for the entire mage population to have an 100% sucess rate. Some will fall to demons, some will abuse their magic, it is inevitable. And if mages have been introduced to the general populatio, it will be this population who suffers.

 

Also, Feynriel is the most nonsensical piece of plot in the whole Dragon Age franchise and that includes that child who was born Tranquil is Dragon Age:Heroes.

[MisterJB]

The Templars have far more options than the mages do, (or did before the escaped).

 

The main problem I have with your point is the word "forced" because the Templars can do other things to solve the situations. The Mages couldn't really do anything to change things, remember that we are talking about individual mages who turned to blood magic, not all mages as a group. 

 

So no, the comparison does not work. 

 

If we accept that the ultimate goal of both groups are "freedom" and "security"; of course, it's not that simple but let's go with it for a second; one could claim there are other for the Templars to ensure safety beyond that of the Circle; not that I believe in that; but one could also claim that mages have plenty of options to earn freedom within the boundaries of the Circle. For instance, Finn is a young man and yet, he is allowed to travel unnatended by Templars for no other reason than that there is some research he wishes to conduct. Evidently, he earned the trust of the Templars and it did not require him to be an old man before he was granted this privilege.

Mages had options to earn freedom beyond escape attempts.

The mages had plenty of options to improve their situation; Wynne was attempting one herself that did not involve war.
 

[MisterJB]

What's nonsensical about him? In the context, it seems to work well enough. After everything I've seen in Dragon Age, little will surprise me.

Mostly his morality. If Feynriel travels to Tevinter, he becomes surrounded by a culture where he will be taught day in and day out how being a mage grants him the right to do whatever he pleases to those lesser (AKA, every non-mage alive), he will be taught how the appropriate tactic for personal advancement is burning your rivals with magic fire, being a Dreamer will even grant him prestige above other mages...and yet he spends his time scouring the Fade helping people?

Nu-uh, that does not happen. And I'm not saying this because he is a mage, I am saying because he is a person.

Hence why I make him Tranquil 100% of the time.

[mikeymoonshine]

If we accept that the ultimate goal of both groups are "freedom" and "security"; of course, it's not that simple but let's go with it for a second; one could claim there are other for the Templars to ensure safety beyond that of the Circle; not that I believe in that; but one could also claim that mages have plenty of options to earn freedom within the boundaries of the Circle. For instance, Finn is a young man and yet, he is allowed to travel unnatended by Templars for no other reason than that there is some research he wishes to conduct. Evidently, he earned the trust of the Templars and it did not require him to be an old man before he was granted this privilege.

Mages had options to earn freedom beyond escape attempts.

The mages had plenty of options to improve their situation; Wynne was attempting one herself that did not involve war.
 

 

I would just like to say that I am not really on either side, I generally defend the mages because I feel like allot of the Pro Templar people on here are way too over the top. There are a few on the mage side like that too though, like the people who think what Anders did was perfectly fine. 

 

Anyway, they may be able to find some freedom within the circle (although that depends tbh) but they will never truly be free. The only way they can achieve that is through escape or rebellion and to do that they need power, so this is why they feel forced. 

 

We are also completely ignoring the mages (like those in Kirkwall) who are not as free and those who suffer abuses in the circles.

 

The Templars could also use non violent means to negotiate with the Mages. 

[Mockingword]

I wonder just how receptive pro-mages will, from now on, be to having their own arguments used against them?

 

Mage uses blood magic? Well, it's the Templar's fault for not leaving them alone, they forced their hand.

 

Now Templars use Red Lyrium? It was the mage's fault for escaping en-masse, they forced their hand.

Hahahahaha.

 

That would only make sense if the mages leaving the Chantry hurt the Templars in any way, which it didn't and still doesn't.

 

The templars, as usual, are the aggressors. They took it upon themselves to hunt down a group of people that only want to mind their own business. They weren't "forced" into anything at all, anymore than a policeman is "forced" to use his gun on someone who is fleeing from him.

[Mockingword]

Nu-uh, that does not happen. And I'm not saying this because he is a mage, I am saying because he is a person.

Surprise, not everybody in the world is a sociopath!

[MisterJB]

It does seem to happen though. He seems to be a good kid. I'll take the writers at face value. I'm not here to write their story for them. Just here to make choices.

 

If anything, I'll chalk it up to his mom. lol. Probably my favorite minor character. I can't think of a more innocent and sweeter person in DA2.

I don't presume to write the story for the writers but I do think the readers have the right to criticize an aspect of the story that is less than convincing. I can't comment on how Lyrium works because that is a supernatural element unique to the DA setting. If the writers say it's addictive, then it's addictive.

But human behavior in stories must be based on human behavior in the real world; and Feynriel's is just not convincing. Let's be honest, if you were a 17 years old teenager with super power and surrounded by a culture that encourages the abuses of those powers; would you really be mentally traveling a country in the other side of the world just in case something bad was happening?

[mikeymoonshine]

Mostly his morality. If Feynriel travels to Tevinter, he becomes surrounded by a culture where he will be taught day in and day out how being a mage grants him the right to do whatever he pleases to those lesser (AKA, every non-mage alive), he will be taught how the appropriate tactic for personal advancement is burning your rivals with magic fire, being a Dreamer will even grant him prestige above other mages...and yet he spends his time scouring the Fade helping people?

Nu-uh, that does not happen. And I'm not saying this because he is a mage, I am saying because he is a person.

Hence why I make him Tranquil 100% of the time.

 

Do we really know enough about Tevinter to say that though? Sure it's full of corruption but it that the case for all the mages there? It always struck me as being like Orlais but with mages. 

[MisterJB]

Anyway, they may be able to find some freedom within the circle (although that depends tbh) but they will never truly be free. The only way they can achieve that is through escape or rebellion and to do that they need power, so this is why they feel forced. 

 

We are also completely ignoring the mages (like those in Kirkwall) who are not as free and those who suffer abuses in the circles.

Much like mage freedom will never truly lead to non-mage security. Do you think non-mages can defend themselves if they are powerless? Then why should the Templar also not feel forced to do what they do?

 

The Templars could also use non violent means to negotiate with the Mages. 

Not every Templar is a Red Templar.

However, if we legitimize the mage's right to impose their freedom through force, then we should also legitimize the non-mage's right to impose their safety through force.