249 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

I almost think of that as a joke quest. How the girl instantly falls in love with Feynriel and such.. it's supposed to be funny.

 

As for a realistic reason why he might be there.. maybe he misses home and tried to look for some outlet to traverse the Wounded Coast through the Fade. Then he happened upon that woman.. and decided to do something good.

 

Just a thought.

I was thinking more about the mentaility behind the writers when they created that quest.

Feynriel did a good thing. It's like the writers were thinking the people who made him Tranquil were stupid for not thinking that sending a rare type of mage said to be able to become a world-shattering Abomination to the one place on Thedas where mages are encouraged to see everyone else as lesser beings is a good idea.

[Mockingword]

Yes, if your chosen path doesn't get more content, it is clearly the writers PUNISHING YOU. 

[MisterJB]

I know why it's there and how it works. But if that is considered "right", to take away someone's freedom just because they might do something that can hurt others. We should all be behind lock and key. 

 

I don't believe I've been arguing whether it's right or not. Only that they're both valid.

[Ymirr]

I don't believe I've been arguing whether it's right or not. Only that they're both valid.

Then I apologize. 

[MisterJB]

Then I apologize. 

Oh, that's not necessary, really.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is not like Feynriel is some sort of Thedosian superhero if he goes to Tevinter... He wastes no time destroying the minds of the bandits and brainwashing some random girl to fall madly and deeply in love with him, despite never having met him. Feynriel is a menace.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They're the ones forcing the mages to undergo the harrowing or be made tranquil if mages of old developed it doesn't matter.

No. It isn't. It is the CIRCLE that forces the mages to undergo the ritual.

[MisterJB]

brainwashing some random girl to fall madly and deeply in love with him, despite never having met him.

Well, that is a possibility but there's no real evidence. It's just as likely she was a naive girl whose head was full of stories about knights in shining armor rescuing princesses.

[Mockingword]

No. It isn't. It is the CIRCLE that forces the mages to undergo the ritual.

Yeah, it's not as if the Templars are standing around with their swords waiting to kill students who fail or take too lo- oh yeah.

 

Well, I'm sure they're only there by special request. It's not as if the Templars main purpose is to kill mages when they disobey the Chantr- hmm.

 

Well, I'm sure the Circle could just stop doing the Harrowing if it wanted to. It's not like the Chantry has the power to declare a mass slaughter of rebellious Circ- wait.

[MisterJB]

Well, I'm sure they're only there by special request. It's not as if the Templars main purpose is to kill mages when they disobey the Chantr- hmm.

It's not.

 

 

Well, I'm sure the Circle could just stop doing the Harrowing if it wanted to. It's not like the Chantry has the power to declare a mass slaughter of rebellious Circ- wait.

I'm sure the mages are in a rush to live by side with walking gates to Oblivion who have never been tested because we were too busy coddling them. Nothing is safer than a mage, after all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's not.

 

Well to be honest it is... sadly chantry policy is way too soft how to deal with mages and well sucks and that is why thedas have to bother with all that crap mages cause.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah, it's not as if the Templars are standing around with their swords waiting to kill students who fail or take too lo- oh yeah.

 

Well, I'm sure they're only there by special request. It's not as if the Templars main purpose is to kill mages when they disobey the Chantr- hmm.

 

Well, I'm sure the Circle could just stop doing the Harrowing if it wanted to. It's not like the Chantry has the power to declare a mass slaughter of rebellious Circ- wait.

1: Would you rather tehre be no Templars present at all at the harrowing? Because that is straight up stupid.

 

2: That is straight up false. If it was true, there would be no Libertarians.

 

3: They probably could, but they would have to explain to the Chantry that they had found an alternative, which would screen the weak from the strong more effectively.

 

Any more misconceptions you need to be corrected on?

[TheKomandorShepard]

2: That is straight up false. If it was true, there would be no Libertarians.

 

2.That circles have libertarians mean nothing if libertarians did something that chantry wouldn't like (well including their main idea) they would hunt them.So it is you can dream about cake if you will try take it we will kill you.

[Al Foley]

I actually can really agree with a lot of what MisterJB is saying.  It is clear that not all Templar's are evil.  That not all Templars are out to kill all the mages and just opress them willy nilly.  Most of the mages in the Circle seem to like it well enough.  And as has been pointed out they even get a certain modicum of freedom.  Is the situation ideal?  No, no, no.  But I find a hard time being anti chantry or anti templar given the evidence.

 

As far as the 'no organized resistance' of the mages...that is just not true.  Mages, especially who use Blood Magic, are not entirely blameless.  And they often travel around in groups and are thus 'quite' organized.  The only single Bloog Mage I can remember running into would be Avernus, and we saw the damage he was doing at Soldier's Peak.  Which brings us to the current conflict.  Because right now, the fraternities have dissolved the Circle of Magi and they aren't fleeing, they are turning and fighting as hard as they can. 

 

Mages who can freeze entire armies or have the power of nuclear bombs in their hands.  I can hardly blame the templars for being a bit...worried...at the situation.  And panicking.  For the first time in centuries mages everywhere is using organized resistance.  Thus, the Templars feel forced into using Red Lyrium to protect the people and deal with the new threat.  Becoming more powerful to begin with.  Is it justified?  No, but the Templars are under every bit of preassure as the Mages, given especially that Blood Mages on top of being organized often become Blood Mages specifically to hunt down templars. 

The Circle system works on the basis that restricting the freedoms of mages is preferable to having non-mages fall victims to magic.

The ideals of magical freedom work on the principles that, while some non-mages will inevitable fall victim to magic, this is preferable to imposing restrictions on the freedom of mages in the manner than the Circle system does.

They both choose to place the burden of suffering on the opposite side in the name of their own protection. What is the difference beyond that you support one side due to your belief that "freedom is a right"?

 

At least the Templars have a plan to diminish the number of victims beyond "Let's all be free and hope for the best".

OUt of all the responses I have read this is the only one that I felt compelled to quote.  Because you are right, sadly people will not just simply go with 'let people be free' as a compelling argument, especially in this case.  Maybe that is why Anders did what he did? But regardless the mages need a plan, some way of ensuring to the Templars that the people can still be protected.  So keep the Templars, keep the Circle, but allow mages to join the Templar Order and also hunt down Maleificar and abominations.  Turn the Circles into pure prisons, only for those who are too dangerous and too criminal to be trusted.  I think that would be my plan. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I actually can really agree with a lot of what MisterJB is saying.  It is clear that not all Templar's are evil.  That not all Templars are out to kill all the mages and just opress them willy nilly.  Most of the mages in the Circle seem to like it well enough.  And as has been pointed out they even get a certain modicum of freedom.  Is the situation ideal?  No, no, no.  But I find a hard time being anti chantry or anti templar given the evidence.

 

As far as the 'no organized resistance' of the mages...that is just not true.  Mages, especially who use Blood Magic, are not entirely blameless.  And they often travel around in groups and are thus 'quite' organized.  The only single Bloog Mage I can remember running into would be Avernus, and we saw the damage he was doing at Soldier's Peak.  Which brings us to the current conflict.  Because right now, the fraternities have dissolved the Circle of Magi and they aren't fleeing, they are turning and fighting as hard as they can. 

 

Mages who can freeze entire armies or have the power of nuclear bombs in their hands.  I can hardly blame the templars for being a bit...worried...at the situation.  And panicking.  For the first time in centuries mages everywhere is using organized resistance.  Thus, the Templars feel forced into using Red Lyrium to protect the people and deal with the new threat.  Becoming more powerful to begin with.  Is it justified?  No, but the Templars are under every bit of preassure as the Mages, given especially that Blood Mages on top of being organized often become Blood Mages specifically to hunt down templars. 

OUt of all the responses I have read this is the only one that I felt compelled to quote.  Because you are right, sadly people will not just simply go with 'let people be free' as a compelling argument, especially in this case.  Maybe that is why Anders did what he did? But regardless the mages need a plan, some way of ensuring to the Templars that the people can still be protected.  So keep the Templars, keep the Circle, but allow mages to join the Templar Order and also hunt down Maleificar and abominations.  Turn the Circles into pure prisons, only for those who are too dangerous and too criminal to be trusted.  I think that would be my plan. 

 

It won't change anything mage always will be ticking bomb everyone can explode starting weak mages ending on strone one.Every mage is be huge danger so they can't be given freedom it is just stupid idea. Trying divide mages on "good" and "evil" won't work because morality hardly matter "good" mage can made even colosal destruction without abomnation.Simple in that matter is only dangerous and every mage is dangerous. Circles don't work as well templars never find many mages and those cause destruction another matter is that mages constantly escape from circles we had many examples not mention that templars instead hunting mages waste most of ther forces to watch mages.

 

Only successful way to eliminate danger that mages are is kill them and in fact it is best way when you pursue safety.

 

Templars as far wrecked mages on ease i don't see that they did that with good intentions and desperation rather addiction and promise of power.

[The Baconer]

Mages who can freeze entire armies or have the power of nuclear bombs in their hands. 

 

That isn't actually possible at the moment.

[Al Foley]

It won't change anything mage always will be ticking bomb everyone can explode starting weak mages ending on strone one.Every mage is be huge danger so they can't be given freedom it is just stupid idea. Trying divide mages on "good" and "evil" won't work because morality hardly matter "good" mage can made even colosal destruction without abomnation.Simple in that matter is only dangerous and every mage is dangerous. Circles don't work as well templars never find many mages and those cause destruction another matter is that mages constantly escape from circles we had many examples not mention that templars instead hunting mages waste most of ther forces to watch mages.

 

Only successful way to eliminate danger that mages are is kill them and in fact it is best way when you pursue safety.

 

Templars as far wrecked mages on ease i don't see that they did that with good intentions and desperation rather addiction and promise of power.

So we should just kill them off for being born a certain way?  What about all the good that mages do?  I can tell you without having Wynne in my party in DA O things would have gone a lot differently.

 

Plus you think that if the Chantry's policy causes violent mages now just wait until the orders change to 'kill on sight' that will just encourage more people like Isolde to hide their children from the Chantry because what mother will want to sign the death warrant for their kid?  And it will encourage more mages to turn to blood magic and just be plain violent and declare war on Thedas because if every single person you run into will kill you if they find out who you are, well, most people will strike first.  And unless I am missing something there is no way to tell when  mage will be born so killing them all won't prevent future mages from being born and cause a problem. 

[Al Foley]

That isn't actually possible at the moment.

Perhaps it is slight hyberbole but I find it to be very slight considering what we have seen mages do. 

[The Baconer]

Perhaps it is slight hyberbole but I find it to be very slight considering what we have seen mages do. 

 

From what we know in the lore, most mages would be lucky to kill off a platoon before exhausting themselves. Even the strongest that we've seen would hardly amount to a fraction of the power of a nuclear bomb.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So we should just kill them off for being born a certain way?  What about all the good that mages do?  I can tell you without having Wynne in my party in DA O things would have gone a lot differently.

 

Plus you think that if the Chantry's policy causes violent mages now just wait until the orders change to 'kill on sight' that will just encourage more people like Isolde to hide their children from the Chantry because what mother will want to sign the death warrant for their kid?  And it will encourage more mages to turn to blood magic and just be plain violent and declare war on Thedas because if every single person you run into will kill you if they find out who you are, well, most people will strike first.  And unless I am missing something there is no way to tell when  mage will be born so killing them all won't prevent future mages from being born and cause a problem. 

 

Good things mages can do <<<bad things mages can do.It is shown perfectly in series we can count very little good things mages did and a lot bad things they did.

Simple it isn't moral choice or nice choice but is most effective choice that will allow creating stable society and making technology progress. I didn't had wynne i have killed her things went well for me. 

Their healing is superior even to our sure but only in short-term perspective and also i don't think that keeping unstable nuclear bomb to heal few peoples is sane thing to do.So you get a little and lost a lot... 

And how they will be dangerous when they are dead? Sure they will use blood magic but they will use it regardless as proven many times better kill them when prepared when they surprise us and then they will kill us. But we can kill new born mages problem solved.

 

 

I have plan to deal with peoples like isolde in fact i have many ways to do that like exploiting hate , greed , faith and fear well but i rly don't want repeat that again as i said how it will work many times.

[mikeymoonshine]

I actually can really agree with a lot of what MisterJB is saying.  It is clear that not all Templar's are evil.  That not all Templars are out to kill all the mages and just opress them willy nilly.  Most of the mages in the Circle seem to like it well enough.  And as has been pointed out they even get a certain modicum of freedom.  Is the situation ideal?  No, no, no.  But I find a hard time being anti chantry or anti templar given the evidence.

 

As far as the 'no organized resistance' of the mages...that is just not true.  Mages, especially who use Blood Magic, are not entirely blameless.  And they often travel around in groups and are thus 'quite' organized.  The only single Bloog Mage I can remember running into would be Avernus, and we saw the damage he was doing at Soldier's Peak.  Which brings us to the current conflict.  Because right now, the fraternities have dissolved the Circle of Magi and they aren't fleeing, they are turning and fighting as hard as they can. 

 

Mages who can freeze entire armies or have the power of nuclear bombs in their hands.  I can hardly blame the templars for being a bit...worried...at the situation.  And panicking.  For the first time in centuries mages everywhere is using organized resistance.  Thus, the Templars feel forced into using Red Lyrium to protect the people and deal with the new threat.  Becoming more powerful to begin with.  Is it justified?  No, but the Templars are under every bit of preassure as the Mages, given especially that Blood Mages on top of being organized often become Blood Mages specifically to hunt down templars. 

 

To clarify, that discussion was an argument with me about whether or not you can compare one situation with another. I wasn't really arguing against Templars. 

 

Anyway I think whether they feel forced or not people should be held accountable for their actions. In the demo we saw Red Templars attacking innocent civilians just to provoke the Inquisitor obviously Red Lyrium has made them very powerful and very corrupt.

 

Blood Magic can do that to mages and you are arguing that you can't just blame the Templars for this. I agree but I also think that the Red Lyrium thing can't just be blamed on the Mages (unless there is a mage controlling the red templars or something).

These Templars are using magic irresponsibly Just like Blood Mages who become abominations and innocent people seem to be paying the price. It's their fault ultimately no matter what their reasoning is. 

[Al Foley]

From what we know in the lore, most mages would be lucky to kill off a platoon before exhausting themselves. Even the strongest that we've seen would hardly amount to a fraction of the power of a nuclear bomb.

That is actually...a pretty fair point.  TBH I am going by what Cullen said in DA 2 about mage's being able to devestate a city.  But...it would take a heck of a lot of blood or lyrium to do that kind of damage...though on the other hand how many mage's are we talking about here before this does become a legitimate problem with fireballs and all sorts of magic.  Plus it seems any mage is certainly capable of tearing the veil and summoning demons if they so chose, and that is the real threat. 

Good things mages can do <<<bad things mages can do.It is shown perfectly in series we can count very little good things mages did and a lot bad things they did.

Simple it isn't moral choice or nice choice but is most effective choice that will allow creating stable society and making technology progress. I didn't had wynne i have killed her things went well for me. 

Their healing is superior even to our sure but only in short-term perspective and also i don't think that keeping unstable nuclear bomb to heal few peoples is sane thing to do.So you get a little and lost a lot... 

And how they will be dangerous when they are dead? Sure they will use blood magic but they will use it regardless as proven many times better kill them when prepared when they surprise us and then they will kill us. But we can kill new born mages problem solved.

 

 

I have plan to deal with peoples like isolde in fact i have many ways to do that like exploiting hate , greed , faith and fear well but i rly don't want repeat that again as i said how it will work many times.

Well I could easily say that the good that humans do <<<< the bad that humans do.  Or just fill in the Templar, the Chantry, all Orlesians.  The point of the matter the good or the bad that a group does is irelevant next to the good or the bad the individual could do.  Otherwise we should have collectively jumped off a cliff as a species thousands of years ago. 

[Al Foley]

To clarify, that discussion was an argument with me about whether or not you can compare one situation with another. I wasn't really arguing against Templars. 

 

Anyway I think whether forced or not people should be held accountable, in the demo we saw Red Templars attacking innocent civilians just to provoke the Inquisitor. 

 

Obviously Red Lyrium has made them very powerful and very corrupt. Blood Magic can do that to mages and you are arguing that you can't just blame the Templars for this. I agree but I also think that the Red Lyrium thing can't just be blamed on the Mages (unless there is a mage controlling the red templars or something).

 

These Templars are using magic irresponsibly Just like Blood Mages who become abominations and innocent people seem to be paying the price. It's their fault ultimately no matter what their reasoning is. 

I agree one hundred percent.  My main concern wasn't that the Templars were doing the right thing in turning to Red Lyrium, just given the circumstances it is understandable.  And I don't think the Red Templars are of their right mind any more.  I think it has been demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere that the Red Templars don't 'want.'

[mikeymoonshine]

I agree one hundred percent.  My main concern wasn't that the Templars were doing the right thing in turning to Red Lyrium, just given the circumstances it is understandable.  And I don't think the Red Templars are of their right mind any more.  I think it has been demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere that the Red Templars don't 'want.'

 

I am quite interested in finding out how this all happened. I doubt that many Templars would quickly sign up to become crazy monsters so they may have been forced or tricked into it or they might just be nieve. Cassandra's interrogation of Varric made it seem like the details of what happened in Kirkwall were not widely known. Maybe they did not know what they would become, or at least most of them didn't. 

 

Also, are they all the Templars who no longer serve the Chantry?