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Regarding Cole


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#26
MisterJB

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Lambert sensed Cole in Evas room where Eva only slightly noticed when Cole made a sound. There wasn't detective work then, and he had no reason to believe anyone else would have been in there with Eva originally unless he's like that with every room he walks into. Which would be a funny image to imagine Lambert stepping into a room and then staring at the corners for five minutes each...

Yes, but that has no relation to your previous post. You asked ""Why would Lambert be able to sense Cole when Wynne couldn't" which, from my view, implied that that was the evidence Lambert used when it wasn't. It was just detective work.

 

Yes, Lambert is capable of sensing things even Archmages couldn't. Probably one of the reasons he is Lord High Seeker.

 

 

Cole only started murdering people a year after he met Rhys after the Kirkwall event like I said. It probably was blood magic/spirit/demon magic he was doing when he was feeling the 'pull' to mercy kill those people, or it could have been the spirit/demons left over remorse of being unable to help Cole having seeped in. Cole at the end of the book pulled a distressed face when he mentioned being unable to help the original Cole in the dungeon. 

A year or a day, the fact that he hadn't commited a murder in all the time he spent in the tower before meeting Rhys presents the possibility that he needed a "host" or a "puppet" in order to do so regardless of the reasons why he felt the need to murder.
 

 

And what if Cole hadn't actually been in the tower for that long? Cole said he didn't remember when he got there, the Ghost of the Spire rumors where never established to have been there for years considering that it didn't seem to be that common to the others. The way it's worded in the book it sounds like it could have just started up when Rhys first saw Cole in the lecture hall, Rhys had been there his whole life and had never heard about the rumors of the ghost until he saw Cole? Cole could have been there for not that long but had already quickly learnt the layout of the areas below (after all, he's not human and wouldn't have a human level of memory, and he was 'quick to learn') For all we know, Coles actually only been at the tower for a year, since Cole had no idea how long he's been there and Rhys has only known him for that year. So his weakening feeling could have been a years worth being in the physical realms taking it's toll on him.

 

All theory crafting here, but it's been bothering me for a bit why Rhys wouldn't know the Ghost of the Spire tales having grown up in the tower for 40 some years.

That could be easily explained by the fact Cole's ability is to make people forget him. Before meeting Rhys, he had never murdered thus, he never left behind traces of his existence. Logically, only after the bodies started to show up could anyone have created the stories of the Ghost of the Spire
And he might have began murdering others because he suddenly had someone who could see him and thus someone he could, through pure instinct, mind control into killing for him.

 

 

Cole may have been unconsciously making people forget him, but he had to focus a ridiculous amount to get it to the point where he could kill a person without them realizing it, so the idea of Cole controlling Rhys to that levels makes zero sense. Not when Cole was using his magic to mask Rhys, Rhys felt it and knew it was being done on him. Not when Cole has such little control of himself. Not when the idea of Rhys being controlled to stab someone really difficult for Rhys to do when the circle was on lockdown after Kirkwall, stabbing a person up close would leave blood on his robes and a dagger that is never shown in Rhys hands until the very end of the book. If Cole was there to clean up the mess, then it wouldn't be unconscious levels.

Cole's power is very mysterious. There are a great number of things he didn't even know he could do before he tried. Making other invisible is already withint his skillset therefore, it's not impossible he could cover up evidence of the murders commited by Rhys.

Fantasy is filled to the brim with children using hidden powers without meaning to and these powers being a lot stronger when used by instinct.

It could even be that he didn't need Rhys to stab his victims, only to perform the blood magic needed to sustain him.

 

 

Why would Gaider write the book through Coles point of view if it's completely unreliable? Gider never struck me as a writer who would have the 'he was dead the whole time and everything around him was a lie' twist, certainly when there's no breadcrumbs for the reader to come to that conclusion.

But there are bredcumbs. In fact, Lambert himself gives us the basket of bread where they came from.

Gaider already proved most of Cole's POV was unreliable by revealing that he was a spirit impersonating the original Cole. Why can't it also be unreliable on the extent of Rhys' involvement in the murders.



#27
KirstyLionheart

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@Snakecode - Not my intention to put words in your mouth. Sorry if that's how it seemed. Just a mere observation since you seem so skeptical of Cole as a character and it doesn't seem to be from simple lack of trust, to me.

And regarding what you said about Cole only being friends with Rhys and living to please him (pretty much), we have more proof that he is trustworthy and loyal than we have of him being the opposite. Rhys was the only person Cole ever received any real attention from when in his darkest loneliest hours. I don't feel a strong bond to Rhys in particular is unusual.. And on top of this, how about his feelings for Evangeline? He seemed to grow fond of her too after being accepted. But of course, I guess that was to earn brownie points from Rhys, right lol? I don't think there's anything wrong with learning from your mistakes and abstaining from committing morally wrong actions because of admiration for a person you hold dear and clearly knows a lot more about right and wrong than a confused spirit/demon. In that sense, I guess that particular sole part of Cole's personality is the child-like trait/s he's supposed to have, learning from praise and scold and wanting to impress etc. Doesn't mean it's just for Rhys.

 

@MisterJB - was that ever stated as a fact? I don't believe so. It all depends on how you feel about the character and your perception of him, what you think he's capable of.



#28
SnakeCode

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@KirstyLionheart- Don't worry about it, no harm done. Although what's with the passive aggressive way you are responding to me? I'm really sorry if I offended you somehow but I am allowed to view a known serial killer with the mind of a child with mistrust, aren't I?

 

I get that people get passionate about certain characters but some people get really over-zealous with defending them, even when no defense is needed. There are people in the other Cole thread talking about leaving the fade tears open if it means protecting Cole.



#29
KirstyLionheart

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@KirstyLionheart- Don't worry about it, no harm done. Although what's with the passive aggressive way you are responding to me? I'm really sorry if I offended you somehow but I am allowed to view a known serial killer with the mind of a child with mistrust, aren't I?

 

I get that people get passionate about certain characters but some people get really over-zealous with defending them, even when no defense is needed. There are people in the other Cole thread talking about leaving the fade tears open if it means protecting Cole.

I apologise. I honestly don't mean to come off all aggressive in any way. I definitely am passionate, but I do not mean to drag you down with that. It's just how I come across over text I guess. I'm also not meaning to suppress or shrug off your opinions as invalid, so for that I apologise too.

Let's just agree to disagree (:



#30
TheRoxasReplica

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Cole_Asunder.pngtumblr_inline_n4g23rdsyD1qeuse7.jpg

If that is not Cole hair I do not know who that could be.

 

 

In this new dragon age we will be fighting lots of demons so it stands to reason that

 

1. Red leather jacket

2. long white/extremely light blonde hair

3. very brooding male

B-iTch please that's Dante


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#31
SnakeCode

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I apologise. I honestly don't mean to come off all aggressive in any way. I definitely am passionate, but I do not mean to drag you down with that. It's just how I come across over text I guess. I'm also not meaning to suppress or shrug off your opinions as invalid, so for that I apologise too.

Let's just agree to disagree (:

As I said, no harm done, I do appreciate the response though. Hope you have yourself a good night and a pleasent (rest of the) weekend.


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#32
KirstyLionheart

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As I said, no harm done, I do appreciate the response though. Hope you have yourself a good night and a pleasent (rest of the) weekend.

Thank you, you too. (:


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#33
MisterJB

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@MisterJB - was that ever stated as a fact? I don't believe so. It all depends on how you feel about the character and your perception of him, what you think he's capable of.

It wasn't stated as a fact but Lambert's evidence is compelling and Rhys does claim that he believes that is what happened; that he killed those people for Cole.



#34
leaguer of one

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It wasn't stated as a fact but Lambert's evidence is compelling and Rhys does claim that he believes that is what happened; that he killed those people for Cole.

What proof is there of that? In the book Cole is shown to be more then capable in killing people on his own. Nothing shows he is possessing someone.


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#35
KirstyLionheart

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It wasn't stated as a fact but Lambert's evidence is compelling and Rhys does claim that he believes that is what happened; that he killed those people for Cole.

Rhys believed, yes.

And to be fair lol.. in my opinion, Lambert was just an overly suspicious extremist.

But hey... we clearly just see it completely differently and will never really agree lol. That's fine :P



#36
leaguer of one

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Rhys believed, yes.

And to be fair lol.. in my opinion, Lambert was just an overly suspicious extremist.

But hey... we clearly just see it completely differently and will never really agree lol. That's fine :P

Added that was not the only theory on what Cole was in the books. Are we considering a hedge mage as well?



#37
SnakeCode

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What proof is there of that? In the book Cole is shown to be more then capable in killing people on his own. Nothing shows he is possessing someone.

Well, Cole thinks that he's killing people. But he also thinks that he's a young mage that died who knows how long ago. Point being Cole's mind isn't exactly stable. Even Rhys thinks that it's the most likely scenario.

 

We may find out what actually happened throughout the course of DA:I. Short of that I suppose it will forever remain speculation unless mr Gaider decides to shed some light on the matter.


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#38
DKJaigen

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It wasn't stated as a fact but Lambert's evidence is compelling and Rhys does claim that he believes that is what happened; that he killed those people for Cole.

 

Lambert? the idiot that got played by every single faction in thedas then got killed because he fought something he didn't understand? what he said was not relevant.

 

Also plenty of court cases in modern times have a turn for the worse when an innocent man gets thrown into jail because police officer leaned on him so hard he confessed. it happens far to often.


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#39
leaguer of one

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Well, Cole thinks that he's killing people. But he also thinks that he's a young mage that died who knows how long ago. Point being Cole's mind isn't exactly stable. Even Rhys thinks that it's the most likely scenario.

 

We may find out what actually happened throughout the course of DA:I. Short of that I suppose it will forever remain speculation unless mr Gaider decides to shed some light on the matter.

It get stable in the end of the book. Point is though we already know he is a killed and he can kill  on his own.



#40
MisterJB

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What proof is there of that? In the book Cole is shown to be more then capable in killing people on his own. Nothing shows he is possessing someone.

Cole admitted that he felt disconnected from the world and killing, somehow, solved this. Lambert read some studies on blood magic and demons and discovered that blood is the ultimate form of natural energy and that it could connect a demon to Thedas. However, in order for this to be so, blood magic is needed but only mages can perform it. Therefore, either Cole is possessing a mage or he was enthralling one.

Since the Litanny of Andralla works on him, it has been proven beyond shadow of doubt that Cole is an entity from the Fade and, therefore, incapable of using blood magic.

Since he had been in the tower for years but never murdered anyone until he met Rhys who could, somehow, remember him, it stands to reason that Cole mind controlled Rhys to perform the blood magic ritual that extracted power from his victims which aided Cole in keeping himself in the physical world.

 

That's one theory, at least, and Rhys came to believe in it.


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#41
SnakeCode

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It get stable in the end of the book. Point is though we already know he is a killed and he can kill  on his own.

That's true. I'm just pointing out that it certainly IS a possibility until we either learn more or Mr Gaider refutes it.



#42
KirstyLionheart

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Cole admitted that he felt disconnected from the world and killing, somehow, solved this. Lambert read some studies on blood magic and demons and discovered that blood is the ultimate form of natural energy and that it could connect a demon to Thedas. However, in order for this to be so, blood magic is needed but only mages can perform it. Therefore, either Cole is possessing a mage or he was enthralling one.

Since the Litanny of Andralla works on him, it has been proven beyond shadow of doubt that Cole is an entity from the Fade and, therefore, incapable of using blood magic.

Since he had been in the tower for years but never murdered anyone until he met Rhys who could, somehow, remember him, it stands to reason that Cole mind controlled Rhys to perform the blood magic ritual that extracted power from his victims which aided Cole in keeping himself in the physical world.

 

That's one theory, at least, and Rhys came to believe in it.

Very good point, however my opinions remain the same until I am told/proven otherwise - hopefully by Cole himself in-game. That would definitely be interesting to say the least.



#43
Nocte ad Mortem

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Cole kills several templars right in front of Leliana while using his "blood magic" powers when the two are attempting to free the mages that have been captured towards the end. That pretty much cinches that he doesn't need to possess a mage to do it. I don't believe the evidence we have suggests that Cole used Rhys to commit the murders. Lambert just believes he does because he's assuming Chantry belief on what spirits/demons are and are capable of is truth. It makes sense to think so through that lens, but spirits are poorly understood and what is assumed "true" about them has been pretty shot through between Asunder and The Masked Empire.   


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#44
leaguer of one

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Cole admitted that he felt disconnected from the world and killing, somehow, solved this. Lambert read some studies on blood magic and demons and discovered that blood is the ultimate form of natural energy and that it could connect a demon to Thedas. However, in order for this to be so, blood magic is needed but only mages can perform it. Therefore, either Cole is possessing a mage or he was enthralling one.

Since the Litanny of Andralla works on him, it has been proven beyond shadow of doubt that Cole is an entity from the Fade and, therefore, incapable of using blood magic.

Since he had been in the tower for years but never murdered anyone until he met Rhys who could, somehow, remember him, it stands to reason that Cole mind controlled Rhys to perform the blood magic ritual that extracted power from his victims which aided Cole in keeping himself in the physical world.

 

That's one theory, at least, and Rhys came to believe in it.

Dude, demons can use blood magic can be done by the demons themselves right. Mage or a tear in the veil is the thing need to get spirits and demon on our plane. But once here they can support themselves in getting energy. They don't really need a host to do that. The only time take a host is to posses a person  and when they do that they live their lives always with them that person.

Their is nothing that says demons can't use blood magic.



#45
MisterJB

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Dude, demons can use blood magic can be done by the demons themselves right. Mage or a tear in the veil is the thing need to get spirits and demon on our plane. But once here they can support themselves in getting energy. They don't really need a host to do that. The only time take a host is to posses a person  and when they do that they live their lives always with them that person.

Their is nothing that says demons can't use blood magic.

"Asunder" extablishes that demons can only use blood magic if they are possessing a mage. I could probably find some more references in other parts of the Dragon Age franchise but since "Asunder" was written by Gaider himself, that's all I need. Demons can't use blood magic, canon.



#46
MisterJB

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Cole kills several templars right in front of Leliana while using his "blood magic" powers when the two are attempting to free the mages that have been captured towards the end. That pretty much cinches that he doesn't need to possess a mage to do it. I don't believe the evidence we have suggests that Cole used Rhys to commit the murders. Lambert just believes he does because he's assuming Chantry belief on what spirits/demons are and are capable of is truth. It makes sense to think so through that lens, but spirits are poorly understood and what is assumed "true" about them has been pretty shot through between Asunder and The Masked Empire.   

Demonic influence over the mind is likely different from blood magic.



#47
leaguer of one

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"Asunder" extablishes that demons can only use blood magic if they are possessing a mage. I could probably find some more references in other parts of the Dragon Age franchise but since "Asunder" was written by Gaider himself, that's all I need. Demons can't use blood magic, canon.

No it did not. With the fact the mages LEARN blood magic from demon it make no sense for them to not be able to use blood magic. Heck, in lore they do have demons attacking and feeding of being of this plain...

 

"Despite the numerous examples of demonic possession shades prove that demons do not have to possess in order to cross over. They are demons in their true form. In time, such a demon will learn to drain energy from the psyche of those it encounters, just as they did in the Fade. Once it has drained enough, it has the power to manifest. Such creatures do not seek to possess a host and instead exist as a shadow, feeding off the minds of those it encounters."

http://dragonage.wik...onic_possession



#48
leaguer of one

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Demonic influence over the mind is likely different from blood magic.

Do you not understand that Cole was erasing peoples memory of him by being? That some how is not an influence over the mind?



#49
MisterJB

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No it did not. With the fact the mages LEARN blood magic from demon it make no sense for them to not be able to use blood magic. Heck, in lore they do have demons attacking and feeding of being of this plain...

 

"Despite the numerous examples of demonic possession shades prove that demons do not have to possess in order to cross over. They are demons in their true form. In time, such a demon will learn to drain energy from the psyche of those it encounters, just as they did in the Fade. Once it has drained enough, it has the power to manifest. Such creatures do not seek to possess a host and instead exist as a shadow, feeding off the minds of those it encounters."

http://dragonage.wik...onic_possession

And according to canon, they can teach it but not perform it themselves. Or maybe the demons who teach it are those who possessed a mage.

 

As for the Shades...what the Shade feeds off is the psyche of people, not the mana in their blood making its abilities, therefore, not blood magic. And this forces them to become a Shade for eternity which is assume Cole had no interest in becoming thus why blood magic was needed. Which only Rhys could perform.

 



#50
MisterJB

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Do you not understand that Cole was erasing peoples memory of him by being? That some how is not an influence over the mind?

And demonic influence over the mind is likely different from blood magic. Just because they can do similar things; controlling minds, for one; doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Lambert talks about how Cole might be able to influence the minds of others in the same argument where he mentions how demons can't use blood magic. So, unless you think he's stupid enough to contradict himself in the very same statement, we're going with demonic influence over the mind being different from blood magic.

Which is entirely likely. If demons could just mind control mages into letting them in, there would be no need for the mind games they play.