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[leaguer of one]

And according to canon, they can teach it but not perform it themselves. Or maybe the demons who teach it are those who possessed a mage.

 

As for the Shades...what the Shade feeds off is the psyche of people, not the mana in their blood making its abilities, therefore, not blood magic. And this forces them to become a Shade for eternity which is assume Cole had no interest in becoming thus why blood magic was needed. Which only Rhys could perform.

What in the cannon says they can't do it? Really you keep saying it but have no source for it. And you missed my point with the Shades. Cole is a being who is attracted to people who are in despair. He is drawn to them and kills them. Shades kill people to get that psyche of people. Cole does not use blood magic to feed, he uses it to get people to forget about him. He feeds the same way a Shade does.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Demonic influence over the mind is likely different from blood magic.

I don't think it really follows. Cole doesn't seem to think there's any reason he can't do the usual ritual on the girl he finds at Adamant Fortress, even though he's not possessing a mage at the time. He's able to actually influence others on his own. I don't see any evidence to suggest he needs Rhys, based on what we know. The only "confirmation" we have that demons can't perform blood magic on their own is that Lambert thinks so, which isn't concrete evidence of anything.  

[leaguer of one]

And demonic influence over the mind is likely different from blood magic. Just because they can do similar things; controlling minds, for one; doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Lambert talks about how Cole might be able to influence the minds of others in the same argument where he mentions how demons can't use blood magic. So, unless you think he's stupid enough to contradict himself in the very same statement, we're going with demonic influence over the mind being different from blood magic.

Which is entirely likely. If demons could just mind control mages into letting them in, there would be no need for the mind games they play.

Or his memory erasing of others is just a form of demon mind manipulation.

[sunnydxmen]

cole could have a specialization thats make him mage/rogue like arcane rogue or something.

[MisterJB]

I don't think it really follows. Cole doesn't seem to think there's any reason he can't do the usual ritual on the girl he finds at Adamant Fortress, even though he's not possessing a mage at the time. He's able to actually influence others on his own. I don't see any evidence to suggest he needs Rhys, based on what we know. The only "confirmation" we have that demons can't perform blood magic on their own is that Lambert thinks so, which isn't concrete evidence of anything.  

Lambert is Lord High Seeker which should make him very knowledgeable on matter regarding magic. Likewise, Rhys is said to have conducted many studies on the Fade and he does not correct Lambert on the matter.

Undoubtedly, there are many things we still don't know about the Fade and it's entirely possible Cole is one of them but the demonic lack of aptitude for blood magic should have been one of the very first things Templars and even Tevinter Magisters made sure to understand; if for no other reason that in over two thousand years, no demon ever used it, even when it was being destroyed.

 

What in the cannon says they can't do it?

Asunder page 364 "Only a mage can perform blood magic."

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Lambert is Lord High Seeker which should make him very knowledgeable on matter regarding magic. Likewise, Rhys is said to have conducted many studies on the Fade and he does not correct Lambert on the matter.

Undoubtedly, there are many things we still don't know about the Fade and it's entirely possible Cole is one of them but the demonic lack of aptitude for blood magic should have been one of the very first things Templars and even Tevinter Magisters made sure to understand; if for no other reason that in over two thousand years, no demon ever used it, even when it was being destroyed.

No one inside the Chantry or Cirlces even knew the rite of Tranquility could be reversed until the events of Asunder. The people of Thedas have extremely little understanding as to how magic really works, or the nature of the Fade and the veil, generally, or basically anything concerning spirits and demons. The difference between spirits and demons isn't really understood at all. The whole situation is extremely vague and characters in Asunder imply that the Chantry's approach to magical and fade related issues are often more based on tradition than anything else. What they think is true means very little considering how little is known about the topic, as a whole. What characters express as their beliefs about these topics is just that, their individual beliefs. It's not official lore confirmation.  

[leaguer of one]

Lambert is Lord High Seeker which should make him very knowledgeable on matter regarding magic. Likewise, Rhys is said to have conducted many studies on the Fade and he does not correct Lambert on the matter.

Undoubtedly, there are many things we still don't know about the Fade and it's entirely possible Cole is one of them but the demonic lack of aptitude for blood magic should have been one of the very first things Templars and even Tevinter Magisters made sure to understand; if for no other reason that in over two thousand years, no demon ever used it, even when it was being destroyed.

 

Asunder page 364 "Only a mage can perform blood magic."

Ok. Then your point is at an dead end.

 

Let's say that demons can't use blood magic. If that's the case that how can his ability to get people to forget about him be blood magic? If he can't make the blood magic spells the who is doing it for him to the extent the everyone he meets for gets him including and abomination that Wynne is? If you're saying the Rhy's is the source via demon influence and making him forget about the kill, then why isn't this demon influence not considered the thing that is make people forget about Cole? Added we already know that Demons can kill on their own once out side of the fade.

[MisterJB]

Ok. Then your point is at an dead end.

 

Let's say that demons can't use blood magic. If that's the case that how can his ability to get people to forget about him be blood magic? If he can't make the blood magic spells the who is doing it for him to the extent the everyone he meets for gets him including and abomination that Wynne is? If you're saying the Rhy's is the source via demon influence and making him forget about the kill, then why isn't this demon influence not considered the thing that is make people forget about Cole? Added we already know that Demons can kill on their own once out side of the fade.

 

What? I never said his abilities were blood magic.

[leaguer of one]

What? I never said his abilities were blood magic.

If that's that case then what are you even basing your theory on that Cole was controlling Rhys?

[KirstyLionheart]

Whew it's getting hot in here

Why don't we all just have a cup of tea and wait for Cole to tell us everything in game. (:

[MisterJB]

No one inside the Chantry or Cirlces even knew the rite of Tranquility could be reversed until the events of Asunder. The people of Thedas have extremely little understanding as to how magic really works, or the nature of the Fade and the veil, generally, or basically anything concerning spirits and demons. The difference between spirits and demons isn't really understood at all. The whole situation is extremely vague and characters in Asunder imply that the Chantry's approach to magical and fade related issues are often more based on tradition than anything else. What they think is true means very little considering how little is known about the topic, as a whole. What characters express as their beliefs about these topics is just that, their individual beliefs. It's not official lore confirmation.  

The leaders of Thedas understand magic very well out of necessity. Certainly, much is still being discovered but there are some characteristics that been proven after much study and experience. For instance, how severing a mage's connection will also neuter its emotions.

If in two thousand years not a single demon used blood magic, even to save itself unless it was possessing someone, then we have confirmation that they can't do it. And, of course, it's entirely possible that is not the only evidence Thedosians have of this.

Lamber is a learned character, there is no reason to doubt what he states.

[MisterJB]

If that's that case then what are you even basing your theory on that Cole was controlling Rhys?

I've already answered that in the previous page. The book itself raises that possibility, even Rhys agrees it is likely.

[leaguer of one]

I've already answered that in the previous page. The book itself raises that possibility, even Rhys agrees it is likely.

But the possibilities have no ground for it. You're basing everything on the concept that blood magic is needed to bring demons over but are forget their other ways to do it. It can happen when the veil is thin. Added, blood magic is not need to sustain a demon out side of the fade. They feed of psychic energy which they have to kill a person for.Example:Shades. Nothing says Rhys is kill people for Cole or being control by Cole to kill people. It's just  theory by a paranoid man. He was right about Cole being a spirit but that does not mean the rest of his theory is correct.

[MisterJB]

So, if Cole does not require blood magic to sustain himself, do explain why Cole needed to stab people in the heart to sustain himself.

 

Also, again, demons who feed off psyches becomes Shades. Obviously, Cole did not want to become a Shade hence why he required a different method.

And i said nothing about bringing demons over.

[leaguer of one]

So, if Cole does not require blood magic to sustain himself, do explain why Cole needed to stab people in the heart to sustain himself.

 

Also, again, demons who feed off psyches becomes Shades. Obviously, Cole did not want to become a Shade hence why he required a different method.

And i said nothing about bringing demons over.

Again...

"Despite the numerous examples of demonic possession shades prove that demons do not have to possess in order to cross over. They are demons in their true form. In time, such a demon will learn to drain energy from the psyche of those it encounters, just as they did in the Fade. Once it has drained enough, it has the power to manifest. Such creatures do not seek to possess a host and instead exist as a shadow, feeding off the minds of those it encounters."

 

And they do that by killing people. Nothing says he gets the energy from the blood. Stabbing in the heart is just the quickest way for him to do it.

 

And Cole does not even know about Shades much less to avoid becoming one. A demon has no reason to avoid becoming one.

[MisterJB]

Somehow, I'm not connecting "feeding off psyche and minds" with "stabbing people in the heart so they'll bleed out".

[leaguer of one]

Somehow, I'm not connecting "feeding off psyche and minds" with "stabbing people in the heart so they'll bleed out".

Again, Shades kill people to feed off their psyches. Stabbing in the heart, which Cole does, Is just a way to kill people. Nothing more.

[MisterJB]

The one Shade that attempts to feed off the party's psyche in the Brecillian Forest tried to put the party to sleep, not stab them.

 

Besides, Cole is not a Shade therefore, he does not feed off people's psyches.

[XMissWooX]

"Asunder" extablishes that demons can only use blood magic if they are possessing a mage. I could probably find some more references in other parts of the Dragon Age franchise but since "Asunder" was written by Gaider himself, that's all I need. Demons can't use blood magic, canon.

But that doesn't make any sense. On several occasions Cole uses blood magic when quite clearly not possessing a Mage.

For example, when helping Rhys break out of his cell, he uses blood magic to make the Templars not notice him cutting their throats. At this time, Leliana is hiding only a short distance away, watching the whole thing. He couldn't have been possessing a Mage then.

And another example would be when he and Rhys are hiding in the sewers, and Cole uses blood magic to shroud them. Cole and Rhys are quite clearly separate entities at this part, so Cole couldn't be possessing anyone.

Asunder page 364 "Only a mage can perform blood magic."

The complete quote is:

"But only a Mage can perform blood magic. So either this Cole has possessed the body of some unfortunate soul and is an abomonation, and thus able to use that body's magic, or he is a disembodied spirit trying desperately to maintain a connection to our world, his only power the ability to influence the minds of others."

The latter part suggest to me that demons/spirits *can* use blood magic, and the "only a Mage can perform blood magic" meant that only those with the ability to use magic could do it, whilst non-Mages couldn't.


I could be wrong, since I'm no expert on the lore, but that's how it seemed to me.

[leaguer of one]

The one Shade that attempts to feed off the party's psyche in the Brecillian Forest tried to put the party to sleep, not stab them.

 

Besides, Cole is not a Shade therefore, he does not feed off people's psyches.

It put the party to sleep so it would have an easier time killing them. Remember, there bone of it's victims at the camp site. The point is that they have to kill the people to feed of them.

And Shade is a demon that is out side of the fade and sustains itself.

You taking something with no significance and starching it for a mile. How Cole kills to feed has nothing special to it. He just stabs them in the heart because it;s the easiest why for him to kill them. That's it.

[MisterJB]

But that doesn't make any sense. On several occasions Cole uses blood magic when quite clearly not possessing a Mage.

For example, when helping Rhys break out of his cell, he uses blood magic to make the Templars not notice him cutting their throats. At this time, Leliana is hiding only a short distance away, watching the whole thing. He couldn't have been possessing a Mage then.

And another example would be when he and Rhys are hiding in the sewers, and Cole uses blood magic to shroud them. Cole and Rhys are quite clearly separate entities at this part, so Cole couldn't be possessing anyone.


The complete quote is:

"But only a Mage can perform blood magic. So either this Cole has possessed the body of some unfortunate soul and is an abomonation, and thus able to use that body's magic, or he is a disembodied spirit trying desperately to maintain a connection to our world, his only power the ability to influence the minds of others."

The latter part suggest to me that demons/spirits *can* use blood magic, and the "only a Mage can perform blood magic" meant that only those with the ability to use magic could do it, whilst non-Mages couldn't.


I could be wrong, since I'm no expert on the lore, but that's it seemed to me.

It is entirely possible Cole's abilities along with demonic influence are something distinct from blood magic. Certainly, blood mages are capable of forcing people to reveal secrets; see Idunna the Wonder of the East; and if demons could just mind control a mage into letting them in, there would be little point in the mind games they play.

 

Your interpretation is possible. but it sounds strange. Rhys was arguing that Cole was a human mage. Since Lambert wanted to prove that Cole is a demon, why mention that "only mages can perform blood magic as opposed to non-mages"? That would strengthen Rhys' position.

 

Also, here's another compelling argument I didn't mention before:

"Did he? He followed you halfway across the Empire? Somehow keeping pace with you the entire way without you once spotting him? And let me guess, the first time you saw him was when you were activelly looking for him."

 

 

[MisterJB]

It put the party to sleep so it would have an easier time killing them. Remember, there bone of it's victims at the camp site. The point is that they have to kill the people to feed of them.

And Shade is a demon that is out side of the fade and sustains itself.

You taking something with no significance and starching it for a mile. How Cole kills to feed has nothing special to it. He just stabs them in the heart because it;s the easiest why for him to kill them. That's it.

And you can prove that Shades feed in a single moment rather than prolonging it for large periods of time much like every other demon we've seen? Can you prove the bones at the campsite were not the result of the Shade's victims wasting away asleep while the Shade fed much like what happened with Niall?

[leaguer of one]

 

Also, here's another compelling argument I didn't mention before:

"Did he? He followed you halfway across the Empire? Somehow keeping pace with you the entire way without you once spotting him? And let me guess, the first time you saw him was when you were activelly looking for him."

But we already knew Cole was fallowing and look for Rhy's. Even giving info the Rhy's has no way of knowing. I would say Coles powers of  a demon allowed him to keep up.

[leaguer of one]

And you can prove that Shades feed in a single moment rather than prolonging it for large periods of time much like every other demon we've seen? Can you prove the bones at the campsite were not the result of the Shade's victims wasting away asleep while the Shade fed much like what happened with Niall?

The fact that every Shade we meet tried to violently kill us. Every single one. Of cousre that Shade could just be a sloth demon out side of the fade.

 

Based on this definition:

 

"According to the various sources, shades are either the true form of demons when they appear outside of the Fade without a host."

 

A shade could by any type of demon.