429 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

You dont need to know what it is made of unless you're suggesting its a faked video. Point is you can still swim with armor, someone as good of a swimmer as isabella would have no issue getting back on her ship. What does the clips length do, we saw the results just fine.

 

And i've told you why those reasons dont make sense. Boots that high would only restrict movement and have only been used for fashion the girdle does not act as armor and assuming it did for the sake of proving my next point, it only covers her sides. her entire chest/heart is open. Makes more sense to wear pants, which would not restrict movement and wear leather armor which would protect more than just her sides

 

It's not combat armour though so the video proves nothing at all. 

 

Boots would take the place of pants when walking through brush and the like. Your vitals are lower down the girdle covers her vitals. It's always difficult to armour a woman with a large chest whatever she is wearing. 

 

This example from ME. If you increase her chest size it just looks silly. But thats a whole other issue. 

 

http://madartlab.wpe.../12/femshep.jpg

[SerCambria358]

Paintings are legitimate sources of information, but they're not true-to-life ones or wholly representative ones.

You're showing a picture of the Battle of Sluys (not actually a painting, but a miniature from one of the contemporary histories of the war), the engagement that is said to have begun the Hundred Years' War. It was a close-in fight with not a lot of maneuver and mostly consisted of boarding actions (to the point where I believe many commenters have described it as a 'naval battle on land'). Under those circumstances, it would make sense to have a lot of guys armoring up, and indeed they seem to have done so; the Plantagenets are supposed to have loaded their ships up with men-at-arms and archers. That's not really a representative naval battle, and it certainly doesn't seem to bear many similarities to contemporary piracy.

The painting of Sluys that you show certainly depicts the armored men-at-arms in the Plantagenet fleet, along with the armored marines that the French brought along. It doesn't really show the archers, which are recorded to have been equally crucial to the Plantagenet victory. But that's not really the point: the creator of the miniature appears to have wanted to get across the idea that Sluys was a brutal, messy, close-in slugfest fought in sight of land, which it was, and the miniature depicts that quite well. Total accuracy about all aspects of the engagement, and about naval warfare in general, aren't as important.

So I wouldn't draw any conclusions about Isabela's attire and its plausibility based purely on the Sluys miniature.

---

Also, based on an earlier comment: gunpowder did not and does not make armor 'pointless'. Armor did not disappear from militaries after the adoption of firearms. And although it became dramatically less popular, this was (not entirely) a consequence of gunpowder weapons, but rather a cornucopia of causes including difficulty of manufacture, the expense to the state of maintaining professional armies, and tactical factors such as a decrease in battlefield visibility.

It's also worth pointing out that armor has been making a comeback among infantry in the last fifty years, precisely to protect against the small-arms fire that supposedly makes armor pointless.

I dont take everything in miniatures to be literal but they are credible sources of historical information. I wasnt drawing its plausibility from the painting i was supporting the point that armor was used over seas despite the risk of drowning.

 

As for the second piece, you took what i said out of context. You took a lot of what i said out of context

[SerCambria358]

It's not combat armour though so the video proves nothing at all. 

 

Boots would take the place of pants when walking through brush and the like. Your vitals are lower down the girdle covers her vitals. It's always difficult to armour a woman with a large chest whatever she is wearing. 

How was that not combat armor? What kind of armor do you think it was?

 

Why would they take the place of pants? Those bushes would be a nightmare for her considering everything above the boots is exposed. Lol you have the heart and lungs exposed to any sword thrust, thats plainly obvious no offense. Women would have difficulties, thats why they wore wrapping, breast get in the way during combat anyways so her outfit adds another impracticality. 

[Aimi]

I dont take everything in miniatures to be literal but they are credible sources of historical information. I wasnt drawing its plausibility from the painting i was supporting the point that armor was used over seas despite the risk of drowning.

Sure, some guys did wear armor for naval combat and for some of those guys, the armor served them quite well. But the other side of the coin is that a lot of the men that fought at Sluys didn't use armor, and that many of the soldiers who did use it fell into the water and drowned.

In certain circumstances, deploying armored troops on ships for boarding actions during this period made sense, but there's a long way between that and saying that not wearing armor for naval combat is implausible.

[SerCambria358]

Sure, some guys did wear armor for naval combat and for some of those guys, the armor served them quite well. But the other side of the coin is that a lot of the men that fought at Sluys didn't use armor, and that many of the soldiers who did use it fell into the water and drowned.

In certain circumstances, deploying armored troops on ships for boarding actions during this period made sense, but there's a long way between that and saying that not wearing armor for naval combat is implausible.

Thats the thing, many people drown regardless whether armor is on or off, so many factors can effect this, wounds, disorientation, the amount of armor itself, or just a lack of skill in swimming. 

 

I never said not wearing are is implausible, the only reason i brought it up was because this person said, she wouldnt have worn armor because she would drown, no question about it so i brought in an example of a sea battle wear the combatants did use armor and a video where someone is swimming with armor.

 

Plus there seems to be this idea that suggesting she wear armor, automatically deduces that i want her to wear a suit of plate armor. Bottom line is, her outfit is optimized to emphasize her persona not in practicality. If she's just a pirate who doesnt wear armor, she still wouldnt wear the clothing she has. Its purely designed to "sex up" her appearance.

[AkiKishi]

How was that not combat armor? What kind of armor do you think it was?

 

Why would they take the place of pants? Those bushes would be a nightmare for her considering everything above the boots is exposed. Lol you have the heart and lungs exposed to any sword thrust, thats plainly obvious no offense. Women would have difficulties, thats why they wore wrapping, breast get in the way during combat anyways so her outfit adds another impracticality. 

 

Because thats not how you wear plate for combat. Iv'e got a set of white armour in the other room

 

Because they cover from the thigh down. That takes care of most levels of brush probably more refreshing than wearing pants in a hot climate too. The armour is practical for her body shape. If you have issues with her body shape like I said above, that's a different issue.

[SerCambria358]

Because thats not how you wear plate for combat. Iv'e got a set of white armour in the other room

 

Because they cover from the thigh down. That takes care of most levels of brush probably more refreshing than wearing pants in a hot climate too. The armour is practical for her body shape. If you have issues with her body shape like I said above, that's a different issue.

What? Plate armor can be worn in any way the person wants, you dont need a suit in order for it to be "correct"

 

Most levels of brush in a tropical setting are from head to toe, leather boots that go that high are not more refreshing in a hot climate than insulated linen pants. If anything that would make things a lot worse. The leather would shrivel up, make it hard to me, and would chafe from all the sweat since it would be extremely hot

 

The armor isnt practical at all since vital organs are exposed. Like i said, making an argument that her attire is practical, is not going to work. I dont know if you feel a sense of obligation in defending her design due to you liking her character, but im sure the designers would agree, practicality was not used to create her appearance 

[AkiKishi]

What? Plate armor can be worn in any way the person wants, you dont need a suit in order for it to be "correct"

 

Most levels of brush in a tropical setting are from head to toe, leather boots that go that high are not more refreshing in a hot climate than insulated linen pants. If anything that would make things a lot worse. The leather would shrivel up, make it hard to me, and would chafe from all the sweat since it would be extremely hot

 

The armor isnt practical at all since vital organs are exposed. Like i said, making an argument that her attire is practical, is not going to work. I dont know if you feel a sense of obligation in defending her design due to you liking her character, but im sure the designers would agree, practicality was not used to create her appearance 

 

No, but you do need certain padding and underarmour. Just wearing a plate made out of light steel does not prove it's possible to swim in armour. It just proves its possible to swim in light gauge steel. 

 

Why would the leather shrivel up?

 

She's a duelist. Her fighting style is high mobility, parry,riposte,dodge. I don't particularly like her character,not sure where you got that idea from. I just see nothing wrong with her design based around her background, her profession, her body shape and fighting style. 

[Lucy Glitter]

There can be a tasteful combination of the two. I think The Witcher had some of my favourite armor. It's not only practical looking (no weak spots or cleavage squares) but it is attractive and eye-catching (as well as unique.) 

 

 

 

One thing I loved in DA2 was how the PC got their own unique armor, just like the other companions. I'd like that to come back. It was a little impractical, I suppose, but it looks very nice so I ain't complaining. 

[SerCambria358]

No, but you do need certain padding and underarmour. Just wearing a plate made out of light steel does not prove it's possible to swim in armour. It just proves its possible to swim in light gauge steel. 

 

Why would the leather shrivel up?

 

She's a duelist. Her fighting style is high mobility, parry,riposte,dodge. I don't particularly like her character,not sure where you got that idea from. I just see nothing wrong with her design based around her background, her profession, her body shape and fighting style. 

Padding and underarmour arent necessities. Usually the only pieces worn underneath as a regular shirt maybe padding for comfort. And how exactly do you know it's light gauge?

 

Because heat on large amounts of leather has that effect if it isnt tied down or stretched out. Nothing to say about the other points on why its impractical?

 

I understand that she's a duelist but armor is not that cumbersome in fact tests show people performing at the same speed in large amounts of armor, let alone practical pieces of light armor that rogues usually have. She's wearing nothing below the girdle except thigh high boots that would more than hinder her performance. Notice she's the only rogue that dresses like that. It would be passable if she was a ranged fighter but someone with boots that would slow her down and no armor, has no business being a melee fighter

[AkiKishi]

There can be a tasteful combination of the two. I think The Witcher had some of my favourite armor. It's not only practical looking (no weak spots or cleavage squares) but it is attractive and eye-catching (as well as unique.) 

 

 

 

One thing I loved in DA2 was how the PC got their own unique armor, just like the other companions. I'd like that to come back. It was a little impractical, I suppose, but it looks very nice so I ain't complaining. 

 

Try dressing Isabella like Triss and you get a quite different result.

[Lucy Glitter]

Try dressing Isabella like Triss and you get a quite different result.

 

They are both very well-endowed. Isabela might customise the armor, however...

[AkiKishi]

Padding and underarmour arent necessities. Usually the only pieces worn underneath as a regular shirt maybe padding for comfort. And how exactly do you know it's light gauge?

 

Because heat on large amounts of leather has that effect if it isnt tied down or stretched out. Nothing to say about the other points on why its impractical?

 

I understand that she's a duelist but armor is not that cumbersome in fact tests show people performing at the same speed in large amounts of armor, let alone practical pieces of light armor that rogues usually have. She's wearing nothing below the girdle except thigh high boots that would more than hinder her performance. Notice she's the only rogue that dresses like that. It would be passable if she was a ranged fighter but someone with boots that would slow her down and no armor, has no business being a melee fighter

 

Because most reproduction plate is light gauge since its no longer required to stop real weapons. It's either prop armour, or reinactment armour. 

 

Why would she wear untreated leather ? 

 

Like I said a lot people doing those tests are not wearing combat armour.Full armour plays havoc with your endurance although full chain feels heavier because of weight distribution , plate is exhausting to wear.Shes the only rogue who fights on a ship on a regular basis too.  Hang on you just said people can wear plate leggings and not be slowed ,but leather thigh boots slow you down ? Not seeing your logic,sorry.

 

While it might not be your first choice outfit for dragonslaying,there is still a lot to be said for getting out of the way of something rather than relying on your armour to take the impact. 

[SerCambria358]

Because most reproduction plate is light gauge since its no longer required to stop real weapons. It's either prop armour, or reinactment armour. 

 

Why would she wear untreated leather ? 

 

Like I said a lot people doing those tests are not wearing combat armour.Full armour plays havoc with your endurance although full chain feels heavier because of weight distribution , plate is exhausting to wear.Shes the only rogue who fights on a ship on a regular basis too.  Hang on you just said people can wear plate leggings and not be slowed ,but leather thigh boots slow you down ? Not seeing your logic,sorry.

 

While it might not be your first choice outfit for dragonslaying,there is still a lot to be said for getting out of the way of something rather than relying on your armour to take the impact. 

Thats just making an assumption and concluding it to be fact.

 

Doesnt need to be treated, i guess you're just going to ignore everything else i said about the impracticality of those boots.

 

Again you're making the assumption that the tests im referring to arent legitimate then passing that guess off as fact. I didnt recall ever seeing her on her ship though, Kirkwall isnt a ship. Thigh high leather boots hinder you because they tighten and stick with sweat, plus its not a stretchy material, armor leggings is built around the person wearing it, it wouldnt restrict movement in the legs as much if at all. I'd expect someone with a suit of armor to know the difference between the two.

 

That would make sense if the boots werent in the equation. Trying to justify thigh high leather boots as practical in combat is like justifying skin tight leather jackets for sports

[Vilegrim]

Because most reproduction plate is light gauge since its no longer required to stop real weapons. It's either prop armour, or reinactment armour. 

 

Why would she wear untreated leather ? 

 

Like I said a lot people doing those tests are not wearing combat armour.Full armour plays havoc with your endurance although full chain feels heavier because of weight distribution , plate is exhausting to wear.Shes the only rogue who fights on a ship on a regular basis too.  Hang on you just said people can wear plate leggings and not be slowed ,but leather thigh boots slow you down ? Not seeing your logic,sorry.

 

While it might not be your first choice outfit for dragonslaying,there is still a lot to be said for getting out of the way of something rather than relying on your armour to take the impact. 

 

 

Re-enactment armour tends to be thicker than historical plate armour because it is not properly tempered to keep costs down, seriously look at the statistics of museum examples of Milanese and Greenwich plate pieces that survive they are surprisingly thin.

 

 

Claude Blair: European Armour Circa 1066-circa 1700 says:

 

 Field armour, Italian, c. 1450: 57 lbs.
Field armour, German, c. 1525: 41 lbs. 13.5 oz.
Field armour, Italian, c. 1550-60: 45 lbs. 13.5 oz.
Field armour, Greenwich, c. 1590: 71 lbs. 14 oz.
Cuirassier armour, Augsburg, c. 1620-30: 69 lbs. 5 oz.
Armour for the joust, Augsburg, c. 1500: 90 lbs. 1.5 oz.
(The later field armour and cuirasser armour were probably "pistol proof", with heavier breastplates than earlier harness. Also, armour for the joust was often much heavier than that for the field.)

Haubergeon, probably Italian, 14th. century: 31 lbs.
Haubergeon, German, 15th. century: 20 lbs. 11 oz.
Brigandine, probably German, early 16th. century: 19lbs. 9 oz.

 

 

Cuirassier and Joust armours (And the later Field Armour )are the super heavies of the armour world, pure heavy cavalry gear, and 'pistol proof' yet still in the load range of a modern combat soldier.

 

realistic armour is pleasing to the eye... i groan everytime i see dragons or some other crap embossed on plates. uncovered belly? why? to have a better chance to hit unarmoured flesh? spikes on shoulders? to make it easier for the enemy to grab by it or just to limit vision? i'd love if they worked on armour stats more - like chainmail has nice piercing resistances, plate armour sucks when enemy is using crossbow, leather armour doesn't affect the speed and dodge chance. if one chooses to wear ceremonial plate - make sure it's heavy, awkward but has +10 to righteous glow or something and/or ladies dig it...

 

Chainmail sucks against piercing, it is the reason arming swords are so needle sharp, to go straight through the stuff.

Embossed details as long as they aren't to overwhelming get a semi pass as acid etch/engraved details probably wouldn't show up in most games as they would be resource hogs.

[Wulfram]

I don't mind Isabela so much from a realism PoV because it's not really pretending to be armour.  Though the asymmetry seems odd in a dual wielder.

 

There can be a tasteful combination of the two. I think The Witcher had some of my favourite armor. It's not only practical looking (no weak spots or cleavage squares) but it is attractive and eye-catching (as well as unique.) 

 

Though TW1 Triss makes Isabela look tasteful

[Stiler]

It's not combat armour though so the video proves nothing at all. 

 

Boots would take the place of pants when walking through brush and the like. Your vitals are lower down the girdle covers her vitals. It's always difficult to armour a woman with a large chest whatever she is wearing. 

 

This example from ME. If you increase her chest size it just looks silly. But thats a whole other issue. 

 

http://madartlab.wpe.../12/femshep.jpg

 

The thing is, armor doesn't need "boob plates."

 

Regular women could EASILY wear normal armor, it has room enough for everything.

 

Plenty of women who wore armor throughout history didn't need such things, it has mainly shown up in fantasy artwork and things to "enhance' the feminine aspect that the artist is painting rather then actually being historically accurate or true to life.

[Klystron]

...

Chainmail sucks against piercing, it is the reason arming swords are so needle sharp, to go straight through the stuff.

...

Perhaps he/she misspoke and meant maille was good against slashing attacks?

[Vilegrim]

Perhaps he/she misspoke and meant maille was good against slashing attacks?

 

That would have been correct..and yea, maybe I should have assumed it was a typo.

[Han Shot First]

I was *mostly* okay with how Isabela dressed because she is a pirate. Pirates wouldn't be heavily armored because they are sailors, and in the age of sail that involved lots of hard work that armor would interfere with. At most maybe she should have been wearing pants or leggings and if any armor at all, nothing heavier than a light leather jerkin.,

[AresKeith]

On the topic of Spike armor, I guess I wasn't entirely annoyed by it in DA2 because I headcanon'd that the Free Marches uses that style for some of they're armor sets

 

I do like to see different styles in armor based on the Country/Culture 

[CrazyRah]

I'd prefer if it was both, something can after all be very realistic and look quite pleasing to the eye. But since i'll be looking at the armor for quite some time i suppose i value the look of it a slight bit above the practicality of it

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Boob armour is the stupidest thing since sliced bread was dropped as a baby. It's like molding someone's bumcrack into the armour, except breasts are even softer and change shape and move a lot more. O bai sternum

 

 

Why are people still bringing up the pirate thing? Pirates can't change clothes? Do you think divers go home and simulate seal sex in their wetsuits?

 

 

There can be a tasteful combination of the two. I think The Witcher had some of my favourite armor. It's not only practical looking (no weak spots or cleavage squares) but it is attractive and eye-catching (as well as unique.) 

 

 

 

One thing I loved in DA2 was how the PC got their own unique armor, just like the other companions. I'd like that to come back. It was a little impractical, I suppose, but it looks very nice so I ain't complaining. 

How did you get geralt in such nice armour? Everything I could find in game were mostly just thick clothes.

[Das Tentakel]

Boob armour is the stupidest thing since sliced bread was dropped as a baby. It's like molding someone's bumcrack into the armour, except breasts are even softer and change shape and move a lot more. O bai sternum

It's several steps up from the chainmail bikini, though. That a boobplate might be a health risk is not immediately obvious to most people (everybody gets it that a chainmail bikini is merely there to titillate and has zero protective value), and it does clearly mark out the wearer as female. In a generic fantasy game that isn't particularly well-grounded in (historical) reality, like Dragon Age,  I think it's acceptable. It would be a different thing in, say, The Witcher, Game of Thrones or Artesia (when you do find dumb armour design in those settings, they immediately stand out. Cha, marketing and the power of the boob).

 

The boobplate also has an old and venerable tradition behind it, though the older depictions are often relatively understated - just enough to indicate (together with long hair) the sex of the wearer. 

 

 

I think there's also a place for it in 'realistic' settings, provided it's in the form of stylized engraving or silvering, rather than actual physical form.

 

 

Regarding pirates, well, Isabella looks the way she looks most probably because marketing needed boobs. DA:O had Boobs the Witch, sorry, Morrigan, and DA2 had Boobs the Pirate, aka Isabella. It's not as if their fascinating personalities were a major part of the respective marketing campaigns.

Boobs, of course, exists across many videogames (and other media). Her marketing appeal is enduring and warps Reality and Reason.