38 réponses à ce sujet

[Orikon]

In the ending,the Catalyst clearly says he controls the Reapers,however,he also says that the Citadel is his home. Even in Mass Effect 1,you can learn the Citadel houses an inaccessible AI in its inner core.

 

So here's a question for you:

 

Do you think that the Catalyst would be weakened or destroyed if the fleets were ordered to destroy the Citadel in the final battle,thus weakening the Catalyst's connection to the Reapers or even removing its connection to the Reapers entirely?

And if not,why?

 

Cheers!

 

Edit

 

Just to make it clear,this is not "another topic about the endings".

I'm asking this purely for research to see what the community thinks,as the option to do the above is something I'm considering for the Extended Refusal mod I'm working on,and nothing else.

[AlanC9]

I imagine the Catalyst would have been destroyed. He's physical like anything else.

 

Whether destroying him does any good is another matter. Probably nothing changes at all, except that now you can't use the Crucible and the Reapers win. The Reapers keep doing what they were doing because that's what they're made to do. Worst case is that the Reapers suddenly realize that the cycles don't serve any useful purpose for themselves. Then they take the kid gloves off and rule the galaxy forever, never letting organics develop advanced technology again.

[DrBlingzle]

Interesting idea.

I imagine that the catalyst will be destroyed if the citadel was. However I think the reapers would continue doing what they're doing because that's what they've been programmed to do. Destroying the catalyst would probably only stop the reapers from getting any new orders.

[SporkFu]

Doesn't the codex entry about the citadel in ME1 state something like, if the citadel arms are closed it's virtually indestructible, like the relays? So until shep gets the arms open, the fleets couldn't do much damage to it anyway... and once the arms are open, well, then the fleets still have the reapers to deal with first. I think if the fleets concentrated on the citadel, the reapers' job would have been that much easier. 

 

Also, throughout the entire game we're told by everyone that there is no way to defeat the reapers conventionally. Everyone was pinning their hopes on using the crucible to win. In order for the crucible to work at all, the citadel is needed, so why destroy it? 

[Orikon]

Doesn't the codex entry about the citadel in ME1 state something like, if the citadel arms are closed it's virtually indestructible, like the relays? So until shep gets the arms open, the fleets couldn't do much damage to it anyway... and once the arms are open, well, then the fleets still have the reapers to deal with first. I think if the fleets concentrated on the citadel, the reapers' job would have been that much easier. 

 

Also, throughout the entire game we're told by everyone that there is no way to defeat the reapers conventionally. Everyone was pinning their hopes on using the crucible to win. In order for the crucible to work at all, the citadel is needed, so why destroy it? 

 

Yes,the Citadel is needed to use the Crucible.

But as I said,if Shepard refuses to use the Crucible (the player picks the Refusal Ending),and the player has high enough EMS (i.e. the Reapers don't have such a high advantage over the allied fleets),destroying the Citadel while its arms are still open could potentially result in the Reapers losing their connection to the Catalyst.

 

[Orikon]

Interesting idea.

I imagine that the catalyst will be destroyed if the citadel was. However I think the reapers would continue doing what they're doing because that's what they've been programmed to do. Destroying the catalyst would probably only stop the reapers from getting any new orders.

Possible,however the Catalyst clearly says he controls the Reapers. And you can see what that means if the player picks the Control ending;Shepard replaces the Catalyst,and does with the Reapers whatever he wants.

That indicates that the Reapers could potentially be confused if the Catalyst itself is removed.

 

But you are right. After all that's why I opened the thread.

[AlanC9]

Look, we all see where you're trying to go with this. You want someone to say that this would somehow weaken the Reapers and make them less effective in combat, to the point where the allied fleets could somehow beat them. 

 

It's the same move the IT guys always try to pull, typically because they know that everybody hates their ideas.

[DrBlingzle]

Possible,however the Catalyst clearly says he controls the Reapers. And you can see what that means if the player picks the Control ending;Shepard replaces the Catalyst,and does with the Reapers whatever he wants.

That indicates that the Reapers could potentially be confused if the Catalyst itself is removed.

 

But you are right. After all that's why I opened the thread.

What I think is that the reapers only respond to a direct order from the citadel otherwise they continue their normal roles and are able to do this without manual oversight because they are fully functional AI capable of making small tactical decisions by themselves. If Shepard replaces the catalyst then he sends out new orders directly from the citadel and the reapers don't see the orders any differently than when they are sent from the catalyst because they all com from the same source. Or at least that's what I took from it, of course I could be completely wrong.

[Orikon]

Look, we all see where you're trying to go with this. You want someone to say that this would somehow weaken the Reapers and make them less effective in combat, to the point where the allied fleets could somehow beat them. 

 

It's the same move the IT guys always try to pull, typically because they know that everybody hates their ideas.

I'm looking for feedback on the subject,and nothing else.

But yes,that is the idea.

After all,I wouldn't have opened a thread about it if I didn't want to hear other people's opinions. Its simply a thought about what could potentially happen if the player has high enough EMS.

[themikefest]

Would you have to destroy the whole Citadel? Or could you just destroy the area where the crucible hooks up? I would say destroying the Citadel tower would be enough to shut off the catalyst.

 

If the connection is severed, would the reapers just turn around and leave? When the reapers leave for dark space at the end of each cycle, all the husks die having no purpose, so maybe that's what might happen to the reapers.

 

I don't know.

[JasonShepard]

Damaging the Citadel would be a feat in and of itself... But yeah, you could probably destroy the Catalyst that way.

 

Of course, that does leave you with a fleet of angry Reapers to deal with, since I suspect that the Reapers are indoctrinated to the Catalyst's views, and wouldn't immediately change sides upon its destruction. Also - Arrival sized explosion? Only, you know, BIGGER?

[Orikon]

 Also - Arrival sized explosion? Only, you know, BIGGER?

Possibly. While the Arrival explosion was due to an overload,the Relays would probably be damaged destroy ending-style since the Citadel is the source of control for the Relays.

[AlanC9]

Possibly. While the Arrival explosion was due to an overload,the Relays would probably be damaged destroy ending-style since the Citadel is the source of control for the Relays.

 

The point is that the Citadel itself is a relay, so Earth and 98% of the human race go boom when it does. Whether the Reapers and the allied fleets go boom with it is another matter. Theoretically anyone who wants to run away can run before the nova happens, since you're safe the monent you enter FTL.

[AlanC9]

Possible,however the Catalyst clearly says he controls the Reapers. And you can see what that means if the player picks the Control ending;Shepard replaces the Catalyst,and does with the Reapers whatever he wants.

That indicates that the Reapers could potentially be confused if the Catalyst itself is removed.

 

 

Actually, this undermines your point. Control isn't just a matter of installing Shepard's personality as the new Catalyst; it also requires beaming an energy wave to all of the Reapers. This wouldn't be necessary if real-time control was a normal function of being the Catalyst.

[Han Shot First]

Destroying the Citadel might not necessarily destroy the Catalyst. Destroy an individual Geth platform for example and they can potentially upload their software to servers and *survive* the encounter. Given that the Reapers also are some sort of hive mind, it is possible that the Catalyst's identity would just transfer to one of the Reapers.

[AlanC9]

Destroying the Citadel might not necessarily destroy the Catalyst. Destroy an individual Geth platform for example and they can potentially upload their software to servers and *survive* the encounter. Given that the Reapers also are some sort of hive mind, it is possible that the Catalyst's identity would just transfer to one of the Reapers.

 

Heh. Like the DAO Archdemon, eh?

[Han Shot First]

Heh. Like the DAO Archdemon, eh?

 

I hadn't thought of that. 

 

But yeah, that comparison works. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I hadn't thought of that. 

 

But yeah, that comparison works. 

 

Well if a similar synthetic/organic construct (or Xen's unborn baby) is nearby, couldn't it absorb the essence of the Catalyst?

[themikefest]

I hadn't thought of that. 

 

But yeah, that comparison works. 

Call it the Reaper Chronicles

[Excella Gionne]

Lol, if you saved the Collector base and you have a super low EMS, he won't let you pick Destroy... Thanks for nothing, Crucible!

[KaiserShep]

Lol, if you saved the Collector base and you have a super low EMS, he won't let you pick Destroy... Thanks for nothing, Crucible!

 

Catalyst: "Your path is set. Now hop to it, meatbag."

 

Shepard: "Wait, why can't I destroy you?"

Catalyst: "Are you serious? You can't just blow through this war and expect to get everything you want."

 

Shepard: "Well..but...what if I shot that thing over there from here?"

Catalyst: "What thing?"

 

Shepard: "THAT! Look, that big glass tube thing. It looks important. Can I shoot it? I'm gonna shoot it."

 

*fires*

 

Catalyst: You motherf...*derezz*

[Excella Gionne]

Catalyst: "Your path is set. Now hop to it, meatbag."

 

Shepard: "Wait, why can't I destroy you?"

Catalyst: "Are you serious? You can't just blow through this war and expect to get everything you want."

 

Shepard: "Well..but...what if I shot that thing over there from here?"

Catalyst: "What thing?"

 

Shepard: "THAT! Look, that big glass tube thing. It looks important. Can I shoot it? I'm gonna shoot it."

 

*fires*

 

Catalyst: You motherf...*derezz*

Lol! That's one thing I'll never figure out! BioWare quality!

[Kabooooom]

The Citadel is made from virtually impenetrable material when closed, and one can deduce from that it would be extremely hard to damage substantially with conventional weaponry even while open. Even the massive destructive power of the Crucible doesn't destroy the whole thing.

Which reminds me of an idea that I had once. Apparently the Citadel can be transported through the relays, despite the size of it. This makes sense, as we know the relays work by signaling them, and they calibrate to the mass of the incoming object.

So, lets say you knew the Catalyst was housed in the Citadel and you wanted to destroy it. Only one way to be sure. Take that ****** to the Omega-4 relay and drop his ass straight into a black hole.

I'm joking, as presumably no one would be able to control the movement of the Citadel except the Reapers. But still, it would be funny.

[AlexMBrennan]

I'd imagine that the Catalyst might indeed be destroyed if the Citadel was destroyed, however there are to big problems
1) the citadel is a tough station expected to survive weeks of bombardment, so destroying it is not possible unless we can take out the Reaper fleets first, in which case destroying Catalyst is no longer necessary

2) there are roughly three ways in which the catalyst could be controlling the reapers:
A) Catalyst is remotely controlling all reaper forces, in which destroying him will render all reaper forces inactive - you win
Catalyst is mind-controlling individually sentient reapers to follow orders, in which case destroying him will leave you with an enemy just as strong who may or may not try to kill you
C) Catalyst issued standing orders, in which destroying him merely makes it impossible to call off the Reaper fleets - you lose. Also, this is how robots work today (e.g. those used in assembly lines to weld cars).

We don't know how Catalyst interacts with the Reapers exactly, but A) at least doesn't fit well with established Reaper activity (e.g. if all Reapers are controlled by one entity, then Shepard should get swarmed by the horde any time he shoots a single husk). As such, a plan to defeat the Reapers by destroying the Citadel would require two counts of incredible stupidity on part of the Reapers to work.

[AlanC9]

Case B might also make things far worse. Like I said upthread, Reapers without the Catalyst enforcing the cycles would have no reason to let organics ever develop technology again.