54 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

The question I always wondered is why the Catalyst put the harvested species inside a Reaper that was on the front lines and could be destroyed, instead of keeping it safe in dark space.

The narrative again and again states that the current cylce is an anamoly. Prievious cycles were unaware of the reapers existance, got totally surprised by their attack, lost there central government first and couldn't fly around to form massive inter species war fleets because the relay system was shut down. I doubt they had to worry about casualties back then.

If you think about it even this cycle does a horrible shop of killing any Reapers. You actually see like five of them die. And those are only the ,in comparison to Sovereign class, weak ass destroyers (And you only defeat them by hilariously obvious plot armor. Come on, if that Reaper on Rannoch had just fired that beam in a horizontal line Shepard would be toast. Also reaper beams troughout the trilogy can cut through warships like nothing. Yet when Shepard takes cover behind a rock on tuchanka s/he is totally save.) . The codexes mention killing some more destroyers, but I'm unsure if there was even a single capital Reaper destroyed. Except if you choose destroy of course.

[ArabianIGoggles]

The narrative again and again states that the current cylce is an anamoly. Prievious cycles were unaware of the reapers existance, got totally surprised by their attack, lost there central government first and couldn't fly around to form massive inter species war fleets because the relay system was shut down. I doubt they had to worry about casualties back then.

If you think about it even this cycle does a horrible shop of killing any Reapers. You actually see like five of them die. And those are only the ,in comparison to Sovereign class, weak ass destroyers (And you only defeat them by hilariously obvious plot armor. Come on, if that Reaper on Rannoch had just fired that beam in a horizontal line Shepard would be toast. Also reaper beams troughout the trilogy can cut through warships like nothing. Yet when Shepard takes cover behind a rock on tuchanka s/he is totally save.) . The codexes mention killing some more destroyers, but I'm unsure if there was even a single capital Reaper destroyed. Except if you choose destroy of course.

The Leviathans drop a capital ship with ease.  The sword fleet is shown blasting one apart as well.  Safe to assume that we took a few out.

[fhs33721]

The Leviathans drop a capital ship with ease.  The sword fleet is shown blasting one apart as well.  Safe to assume that we took a few out.

Right I forgot about the leviathan DLC there. Sorry my bad. 

But when do we see sword fleet blasting one apart? All I remember is one getting a single arm blown off, followed by him anihilating the ship that did it with his particle beam. Anyway I doubt the united MEU forces took out many Capital reapers. And that was a cycle that was at least somewhat prepared and had the ability to actually band together their soldiers and warships.

The prievious cycles had no such advantages, which makes it highly unlikely that the cataclyst had to worry about loosing too much his precious data uploaded to the Reapers.

[Eryri]

A thought just occurred to me. You know how they needed the keepers then later the geth and saren to open the citadel arms to open dark space to let all the reapers in the galaxy. How is it that the Reapers are able to come from dark space without the citadel opening dark space for them to come out of? Also why did the Reapers create the Citadel? What was the purpose in that? Also if the Reapers never needed the citadel to come into the milkyway galaxy then what was the point in ME1 dealing with sovereign and saren?

Good points OP. As others have pointed out, the issue is not so much the fact that the Reapers were able to get back to the galaxy - they would presumably have had to tow the partner relay to the Citadel out to its position in Darkspace using their own propulsion. A far more important issue, in my view, is why Sovereign behaved like such a suicidal idiot in blowing the Reaper's element of surprise by assaulting the Citadel with the relatively feeble forces of the Geth Heretics, when he could have simply waited 2 or 3 years until he had the entire Reaper armada at his back.

Ships can't be tracked while FTL, so they could have jumped in and surrounded the Citadel before obliterating the Council forces stationed there with ease. Saren could have been kept in reserve until then to keep the ward arms open long enough to gain access to the Citadel core and all it's records and the galactic government. Attacking early with such a relatively weak force just seems foolhardy. The only explanation I can head-canon is that Sovereign was ashamed of his embarrassing failure and wanted to avoid punishment from the other Reapers - though I don't find that terribly satisfying.

[themikefest]

Right I forgot about the leviathan DLC there. Sorry my bad. 

But when do we see sword fleet blasting one apart? All I remember is one getting a single arm blown off, followed by him anihilating the ship that did it with his particle beam. Anyway I doubt the united MEU forces took out many Capital reapers. And that was a cycle that was at least somewhat prepared and had the ability to actually band together their soldiers and warships.

The prievious cycles had no such advantages, which makes it highly unlikely that the cataclyst had to worry about loosing too much his precious data uploaded to the Reapers.

The ship blew two legs off the capital ship before it was blown up

 

One species was able to destroy a capital ship. The reaper we board for the  IFF mission in ME2

 

We have no idea how many reaper capital ships were destroyed in the previous cycles

 

During the Battle of Palaven, the turians were able to destroy several reaper capital ships

[AlanC9]

@ Eryri: Yeah, ME1 never really made much sense.

[fhs33721]

The ship blew two legs off the capital ship before it was blown up

 

One species was able to destroy a capital ship. The reaper we board for the  IFF mission in ME2

 

We have no idea how many, if any, the previous cycles destroyed any reaper capital ships

 

During the Battle of Palaven, the turians were able to destroy several reaper capital ships

Point is, the Reaper doesn't seem to be impaired by this and one shot kills the ship afterwards. I wouldn't  call that "blast apart" but mildly damage.

 

We even have a complete count of 2 delrelict Reapers. The one from ME2 and the one leviathan destroyed during some former cycle and that the Batarians found. But the Reapers apparently live exist since millions of years. So a body count of two isn't really high.

 

The fact that there is one capital Reaper is created every 50000 years and the fact that there ate at least hundreds of them flying around doesn't speak to highly of previous cycles Reaper killing abilities.

 

You are Right about the battle of Palaven. I shall hang my head in shame and admit that Shepards cycle doesn't suck completly at killing Reapers. They just suck mildly .

[Bardox9]

Sovereign's job was to monitor the current cycle and trigger the Relay when it was time to harvest. The light switch was flicked and nothing happened. Could have just waited, but instead began to triage the problem of "why wasn't the Citadel relay firing?" Don't understand why that required the heretic Geth or Sarren. Given the overwhelming power of a capital ship, Sovereign could have just jumped to the citadel like any other ship, attached itself to the tower, and opened the relay before a single ship with any real power had a chance to target Sovereign. BOOM! Reapers flood in and harvest begins. I don't get why it needed Sarren and the Geth. That fleet around the citadel at the end of ME1 is not normally there. the council called their ships in to defend from the Geth assault. Why did Sovereign need them??

 

Another thing I still don't understand. How does killing the Sarren zombie thing disable Sovereign. An ancient massive highly advanced warship that is disabled by shooting one of it's avatars? In Me2, Harbinger takes over a bunch of Collectors that you kill and Harbinger never had a systems crash like that. Lots of little things that just make no sense.

[Eryri]

@ Eryri: Yeah, ME1 never really made much sense.

Agreed, at least regarding it's central plot (other elements like the setting and characters more than compensated for me though). Unfortunately ME3 compounded the first game's error by making the travel time from Dark Space so short. If the Reapers had faced a long, tedious and energetically expensive journey of a century or longer, then Sovereign' actions might have made sense, or at least enough sense for it not to stand out too much as a plot hole. Though that would raise the question of why the Reapers put their base so unnecessarily far away... extreme paranoia? Plus we wouldn't have Shepard as the protagonist for the war, unless Project Lazarus had the side effect of extending his / her lifespan.

Modifié par Eryri, 18 mai 2014 - 09:08 .

[themikefest]

Point is, the Reaper doesn't seem to be impaired by this and one shot kills the ship afterwards. I wouldn't  call that "blast apart" but mildly damage.

 

I never said the reaper is blasted apart. I said its two legs were and that it destroyed the ship that blew its two legs off.

[fhs33721]

Sovereign's job was to monitor the current cycle and trigger the Relay when it was time to harvest. The light switch was flicked and nothing happened. Could have just waited, but instead began to triage the problem of "why wasn't the Citadel relay firing?" Don't understand why that required the heretic Geth or Sarren. Given the overwhelming power of a capital ship, Sovereign could have just jumped to the citadel like any other ship, attached itself to the tower, and opened the relay before a single ship with any real power had a chance to target Sovereign. BOOM! Reapers flood in and harvest begins. I don't get why it needed Sarren and the Geth. That fleet around the citadel at the end of ME1 is not normally there. the council called their ships in to defend from the Geth assault. Why did Sovereign need them??

 

Another thing I still don't understand. How does killing the Sarren zombie thing disable Sovereign. An ancient massive highly advanced warship that is disabled by shooting one of it's avatars? In Me2, Harbinger takes over a bunch of Collectors that you kill and Harbinger never had a systems crash like that. Lots of little things that just make no sense.

If he just attacked they could have closed the citadel before he could get docked. When closed the citadel is basically inpenetrable, so he needed Saren to open the arms from the inside. Also opening the relay seems to take some time since Separd has time to kick some Geth butt, kick Sarens butt, open the arms and kick Sarens posessed corpses butt before it even finished. I guess he might have needed the geth as a distraction in the meantime.

 

Sovereign uselessly flopping on his back like a dead spider after his Saren-husk is killed makes zero sense though. If that could happen why would Sovereign even engage in this pointless boss battle with Shepard in the first place. He should just have ignored Shep and continue to open that dammed relay.  Yep Shepard totally won due to villain stupidity there.

[fhs33721]

I never said the reaper is blasted apart. I said its two legs were and that it destroyed the ship that blew its two legs off.

 

No you indeed didn't.

ArabianlGoggles originally claimed that we see Sword fleet blast a Reaper apart. So that sentece was kind of still aimed at him.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

[ArabianIGoggles]

No you indeed didn't.

ArabianlGoggles originally claimed that we see Sword fleet blast a Reaper apart. So that sentece was kind of still aimed at him.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

 

I call getting your legs blown off well within the range of, "blasted apart".  That is also at the beginning of Sword's arrival.  You think that the rest of the fleet just let the mangled Reaper continue using its giant laser?  

[ImaginaryMatter]

If he just attacked they could have closed the citadel before he could get docked. When closed the citadel is basically inpenetrable, so he needed Saren to open the arms from the inside. Also opening the relay seems to take some time since Separd has time to kick some Geth butt, kick Sarens butt, open the arms and kick Sarens posessed corpses butt before it even finished. I guess he might have needed the geth as a distraction in the meantime.

 

Sovereign uselessly flopping on his back like a dead spider after his Saren-husk is killed makes zero sense though. If that could happen why would Sovereign even engage in this pointless boss battle with Shepard in the first place. He should just have ignored Shep and continue to open that dammed relay.  Yep Shepard totally won due to villain stupidity there.

 

It's very possible that due to Sovereign's shields running out from sustained fire and the delay caused by the Prothean program that Sovereign wouldn't have had enough time to open the Relay; so instead of facing absolute death at the barrels of the human fleet barring down on it, Sovereign took the chance to control Saren and remove the Prothean device from the console manually. I also don't think it was established until ME3 that there was some sort of negative feed back/overload that resulted from a controlled husk dying, until then it they were just adjacent events and Sovereign's collapse could be explained by it's energy reserves used to maintain it's shielding finally running out.

[Bardox9]

If he just attacked they could have closed the citadel before he could get docked. When closed the citadel is basically inpenetrable, so he needed Saren to open the arms from the inside. Also opening the relay seems to take some time since Separd has time to kick some Geth butt, kick Sarens butt, open the arms and kick Sarens posessed corpses butt before it even finished. I guess he might have needed the geth as a distraction in the meantime.

 

Sovereign uselessly flopping on his back like a dead spider after his Saren-husk is killed makes zero sense though. If that could happen why would Sovereign even engage in this pointless boss battle with Shepard in the first place. He should just have ignored Shep and continue to open that dammed relay.  Yep Shepard totally won due to villain stupidity there.

 

I didn't mean that Sovereign should have just attacked the Citadel, but rather just jump as close as possible and squeeze through the arms before they closed. IF they closed. Plus those arms are really damn slow. The Citadel doesn't have a fleet of warships surrounding it. It's got some random ships docked, the destiny ascension, and probably a few hundred mid level fighters. The Citadel, and space stations in general, primary defense is the stations shielding and turrets. None of which are a threat to a Reaper capitol ship.

 

If you wish to insert a nail into a piece of wood, you don't need to do anything fancy and complicated. Just hit the damn thing till it goes in. Once inside the arms, a few shots from Sovereigns main gun and anything that could be considered a threat is blown to space bits. Latch on to the tower, finish closing the arms, do the techno-jumbo to fix what was broken, open arms, detach, send signal to keepers, haul a^s out of there, relay opens, Reapers flood in, harvest begins. No need for Saren or the Geth.

 

And like I said. The destruction of the Saren zombie causes a full systems crash of a Reaper capitol ship is true Reaper nonsense of the ME1 variety.

[fhs33721]

It's very possible that due to Sovereign's shields running out from sustained fire and the delay caused by the Prothean program that Sovereign wouldn't have had enough time to open the Relay; so instead of facing absolute death at the barrels of the human fleet barring down on it, Sovereign took the chance to control Saren and remove the Prothean device from the console manually. I also don't think it was established until ME3 that there was some sort of negative feed back/overload that resulted from a controlled husk dying, until then it they were just adjacent events and Sovereign's collapse could be explained by it's energy reserves used to maintain it's shielding finally running out.

That's grade A headcanon right there. But nothing else really. Sovereigns shields don't just run out of power. All his systems competly fail, he flopps on his back like a dead Spider and starts sparking red lightening in the exact same second that Shepard kills the Saren-husk.

Seconds before he was kicking the alliances ass so hard the wanted to retreat already and were only stopped by Hacket. Also the Prothean device didn't seem to interrupt his relay opening plan at all. Shepard can still tell the fleet to concentrate on Sovereign before its to late.

That sentece wouldn't make any sense if Sovereigns plan would already have failed du to the prothean device. All the prothean device seems to do is help Shepard open the arms of the citadel without needing a password.

Which brings us back to the question of why the hell does Sovereign start a pointless bossbattle for no reason? Just so he can loose in the last minute? Sure looks like it.

 

I didn't mean that Sovereign should have just attacked the Citadel, but rather just jump as close as possible and squeeze through the arms before they closed. IF they closed. Plus those arms are really damn slow. The Citadel doesn't have a fleet of warships surrounding it. It's got some random ships docked, the destiny ascension, and probably a few hundred mid level fighters. The Citadel, and space stations in general, primary defense is the stations shielding and turrets. None of which are a threat to a Reaper capitol ship.

 

If you wish to insert a nail into a piece of wood, you don't need to do anything fancy and complicated. Just hit the damn thing till it goes in. Once inside the arms, a few shots from Sovereigns main gun and anything that could be considered a threat is blown to space bits. Latch on to the tower, finish closing the arms, do the techno-jumbo to fix what was broken, open arms, detach, send signal to keepers, haul a^s out of there, relay opens, Reapers flood in, harvest begins. No need for Saren or the Geth.

 

And like I said. The destruction of the Saren zombie causes a full systems crash of a Reaper capitol ship is true Reaper nonsense of the ME1 variety.

All the normal relays that lead to the citadel are guarded I think. He couldn't approch without being notied I think. On the other hand his plan still made ittle sense. But I guess if the Reapers acted as smart as they are supposed to be the game would be pretty short and end in a bad way for Shepard.

[fhs33721]

I call getting your legs blown off well within the range of, "blasted apart".  That is also at the beginning of Sword's arrival.  You think that the rest of the fleet just let the mangled Reaper continue using its giant laser?  

Fair point on the "blasted apart" thing. From a vocabulary point of view getting two legs blown off does count as balsted apart.

The Reaper was still perfectly capable of defending itself afterwards. All the other Reapers in the cutscene got hit multipe times without as much as slowing down, while even the injured Reaper one shot killed an ship. Again I doubt Sword fleet killed many Reapers.

[AlanC9]

 

Which brings us back to the question of why the hell does Sovereign start a pointless bossbattle for no reason? Just so he can loose in the last minute? Sure looks like it.

 

 

I've always figured we've just gotta headcanon that Sovereign's shield power was dropping fast enough for him to see that he'd run out of shields before Hackett ran out of ships.

[Farangbaa]

And another one of these topics.

[ImaginaryMatter]

That's grade A headcanon right there. But nothing else really. Sovereigns shields don't just run out of power. All his systems competly fail, he flopps on his back like a dead Spider and starts sparking red lightening in the exact same second that Shepard kills the Saren-husk.

Seconds before he was kicking the alliances ass so hard the wanted to retreat already and were only stopped by Hacket. Also the Prothean device didn't seem to interrupt his relay opening plan at all. Shepard can still tell the fleet to concentrate on Sovereign before its to late.

That sentece wouldn't make any sense if Sovereigns plan would already have failed du to the prothean device. All the prothean device seems to do is help Shepard open the arms of the citadel without needing a password.

Which brings us back to the question of why the hell does Sovereign start a pointless bossbattle for no reason? Just so he can loose in the last minute? Sure looks like it.

 

As far as ME1 is concerned Sovereign's downfall from the death of Saren hopper is also head-canon, all we know is that the events happened near each other, my theory is just one that explains Sovereign's actions.

 

As for the Prothean device, it is stated to, "corrupt the Citadel's security protocols and give temporary control over the station." What exactly this means I don't know but it doesn't seem like a stretch to conclude that it could include the Citadel's dark space Relay functions, in addition to controlling the Wards and the opening or locking down of the Relay network.

 

I'll specify what I meant by the energy reserves; perhaps Sovereign, like almost every ship in science fiction, can divert power from other systems to it's shields. If Sovereign was experiencing strain from the Alliance barrage, perhaps this is what it did. Perhaps, in it's final moments it diverted all power, including whatever was fueling it's locks onto the Citadel to it's shields -- or maybe it simply ran out of all power completely -- which is why it fell limply off the Citadel tower. Heck, maybe it was a rule-of-cool/cinematic moment and we shouldn't put any more thought into it than something like why the ships fight each other Star Wars style (it's certainly not the first).

[Eryri]

But I guess if the Reapers acted as smart as they are supposed to be the game would be pretty short and end in a bad way for Shepard.

Ain't that the truth? The example of this I find most personally annoying is their failure to shut down the relay network after retaking the Citadel. That should have been Game Over right there. They could have stranded the Crucible light years away and destroyed it at their leisure.

Apparently Mike Gamble has said that the Keepers somehow prevented the Reapers from accessing that part of the Citadel. This almost makes it worse, as the supposedly brilliant sentient starships are thwarted by some quasi- intelligent GM cockroaches. Even if this was the case, a far better way to defend the Citadel would be to send it through some obscure relay and then shut that relay down behind it. Either by deactivating it (which I would assume the Reapers would be able to do), or simply by towing the Citadel a safe distance away, and then lobbing an asteroid at the relay to blow it up a la Arrival. The Citadel would be safely out of the Sword Fleet's reach for decades. But then we wouldn't have had that lovely space battle cutscene above Earth... Or indeed an end to the game.

One possible explanation is the the Reapers deliberately wanted the Sword Fleet to come to Earth so they could destroy it in one decisive battle. That at least would be semi respectable as a mildly cunning plan.

[shodiswe]

Personaly, I think the Citadel is of Leviathan design and build, the "Inteligence" which we knows as the "Catalyst" lives there, as both the Leviathans and the Catalyst tells us. That's where it was created by a Leviathan research team, aboard an unarmed Leviathan sciencevessel.

It proved a convenient trap for evolving organic species that would come there and use it as a "Citadel" for thier spacefaring civilisations and theby provide intel on all their colinies and activities so that the Catalyst and Reapers will know where they are and how to best defeat their defences.

The Citadels abilities that commes from it's massive and hidden mass effect core was an effective way of providign expedient and effortless travel over long distances. While capabel to traveling from and to Darkspace over a time span of a few years, it was far preferable to hitch a ride with the Citadelrelay.
It also seems like the Citadel seems capable of performing it's own galactic FTL travel at record speeds.
It would seem like it just jumped to Earth pretty much immediately while Shepard was fighting on Chronos station.

As for the rest of it, I can't say I care much for the whole Reaper storyline... I'm hoping for something new in the next game. Something more down to earth. Bioware is pretty good at makign itneresting characters, now they need to learn how to create a truly compelling story. While I liked a lot of the story, I think it could have been a lot better. Still one of my favrite series, especialy with the ability to export/import your characters from one game to another.

[Excella Gionne]

What are you talking about? Everything after Eden Prime was a myth....Drells do not exist!

 

Reposted for truth:

[DoomsdayDevice]

^ "Choose Wisely", more like

[CptFalconPunch]

A thought just occurred to me. You know how they needed the keepers then later the geth and saren to open the citadel arms to open dark space to let all the reapers in the galaxy. How is it that the Reapers are able to come from dark space without the citadel opening dark space for them to come out of? Also why did the Reapers create the Citadel? What was the purpose in that? Also if the Reapers never needed the citadel to come into the milkyway galaxy then what was the point in ME1 dealing with sovereign and saren? Another thing why was it that the reapers or indoctrinated servants of the reapers tried creating a human reaper? They created all other reapers the same as harbinger so why change it up? Also Why didn't they create a different kind of reaper for each cycle? One last question, What was the point of the whole war between the geth and the quarians? It doesn't make sense to me period. Can someone help me out here?

 

 

How did the reapers come from dark space?

A. You can keep your momentum forever in space, until you hit another object. The reapers can travel from dark space but it takes years.

 

Why did the reapers create the citadel?

A. Quoting sovereign: "Your civilization is based on our technology, by using it, your society develops along the paths we desire". The Citadel was cleverly put there so that organic civilizations would make it their "home" and center of their civilization. Then, when the reapers came through, they could pretty much eliminate all communications and have files on every organic race, locations, order of command etc. In short element of surprise as vigil told you.

 

What was the point of dealing with saren and sovereign in ME1?

A. Because if they took control of it, they would have the element of surprise again. Every army will be at disarray just like what happened with the protheans and every civilization before them, as Vigil told you. Then its game over for organics. Even javik elaborates on this.

 

Why create the human reaper?

A. Dropped plot point from the dark energy plot. The human reaper, due to human genetic diversity (lol) would help the reapers stop the spread of dark energy, which was rampant. That is supposedly why they farmed civilizations, trying to look for the best. The protheans weren't it so the were turned to bugs. 

 

Why didn't they create a different reaper for each cycle?

A. Really, doesn't matter. Its like asking why darth vader wore a cape.

 

Point of war between GETH and Quarians?

A. Constructing self aware AI is forbidden by council law. In their last attempt to cover it up they started destroying the geth, hoping they would get dumber by decreasing their numbers.

Also they were afraid that they would revolt, just imagine waking up in a world where you're a slave, you want to free yourself. The quarians panicked and tried to shut them down before it was too late. Tali said all that in great detail if I remember correctly. Have you even spoke to her?

The question "Does this unit have a soul" is a representation that its becoming self aware.