216 réponses à ce sujet

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'm sure there are a few other things that might annoy some folks, but the one that really gets me is the one defining point that explains Mordin's 180 isnt available unless you wait till the last moment to make up your mind about the cure. That one line pretty much explains it all and instead of having it be something that could come up at any other point in that arc, its at a point that most people wont see, especially for those that are completely transparent in their intentions for the Krogan.

[Obadiah]

Agreed. There are a few pretty dramatic/enlightening comments in ME3 hidden behind a somewhat obscure dialog options.

[Ryriena]

I tend too agree that Mordin 180 is very jarring but that's the best arc in the entire game. The death of Mordin made me cry like a baby, but his guilt was in ME2. During the mission he starts to see the error of his ways, when he see the dead female.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Mordin's remorse for the genophage is obvious in ME2, so his support for the cure in ME3 was similarly obvious IMO -- he was eager to atone.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 Mordin's remorse for the genophage is obvious in ME2, so his support for the cure in ME3 was similarly obvious IMO -- he was eager to atone.

 

He felt bad about it (if you actually got the scene) but even then he still defended it. While I think him changing his mind about it is natural (again, only if you actually got the scene) they still should have addressed it.

[Daemul]

Mordin was in ME3? All I saw was some irrational dude who let his emotions cloud his judgement. The real Mordin was coping with his part in the Genophage just fine in ME2, especially with me constantly re-affirming his views, any regrets he had he was able to deal with. I even remember how back on the Normandy he was boasting about how he is able to process his emotional responses faster which stops him from becoming like Maelon, who due to his obsession with the genophage ended up making bad choices from grief, anger and guilt, and that Maelon couldn't accept these feelings, so he made the decision to do what he did.

Newsflash Mordin, you became exactly like Maelon in ME3, allowing your guilt to drive you as insane as it did Maelon. Don't even get me started on his garbage excuse for using Maelon's research data when he killed the guy for the experiments he did.

ME2:"Unacceptable experiments, unacceptable goals. Won't change, no choice, have to kill you"

ME3:"Will always be scientists willing to perform unethical tests, can't change that"



Mordin this is BS and you know it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He felt bad about it (if you actually got the scene) but even then he still defended it. While I think him changing his mind about it is natural (again, only if you actually got the scene) they still should have addressed it.

 

That's why he cites practical reasons to cure the genophage in ME3, he wants to atone without being inconsistent about the galaxy's best interest.

 

Thing is, his emotional side is overpowering the practical one and driving him to analyze the situation with confirmation-bias.

 

I don't see the problem with requiring the player to infer this, rather than clearly state it ala EDI's Captain Data observation about Legion's death scene.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I tend too agree that Mordin 180 is very jarring but that's the best arc in the entire game. The death of Mordin made me cry like a baby, but his guilt was in ME2. During the mission he starts to see the error of his ways, when he see the dead female.

 Mordin's remorse for the genophage is obvious in ME2, so his support for the cure in ME3 was similarly obvious IMO -- he was eager to atone.

 

Except that Mordin even with his guilt, still rationalized what he did. The man could rationalize just about anything so long as he could make sound logic for it. Thats why the 180 is so jarring. The entire time he is around in 3, he's rationalizing it and you dont get to call him out until its do or die for the cure? Thats a bit of **** and its hard to not call it for what it is.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ME2:"Unacceptable experiments, unacceptable goals. Won't change, no choice, have to kill you"

ME3:"Will always be scientists willing to perform unethical tests, can't change that"


Mordin this is BS and you know it.

 

Really? I thought it was a pretty sound argument (in response to the notion that using Maelon's work will "encourage" unethical science).

[Goneaviking]

Mordin was in ME3? All I saw was some irrational dude who let his emotions cloud his judgement. The real Mordin was coping with his part in the Genophage just fine in ME2, especially with me constantly re-affirming his views, any regrets he had he was able to deal with. I even remember how back on the Normandy he was boasting about how he is able to process his emotional responses faster which stops him from becoming like Maelon, who due to his obsession with the genophage ended up making bad choices from grief, anger and guilt, and that Maelon couldn't accept these feelings, so he made the decision to do what he did.

 

Apparently the games developers didn't feel that every character's attitudes and opinions should be determined by the player. Shouldn't really come as a surprise given that they didn't allow Shepard to be pro-Cerberus to the disappointment of Cerberus fans.

 

 

Newsflash Mordin, you became exactly like Maelon in ME3, allowing your guilt to drive you as insane as it did Maelon. Don't even get me started on his garbage excuse for using Maelon's research data when he killed the guy for the experiments he did.

 

And today we learned that reckless experimentation at the expense of previously healthy lives sponsored by an aggressive leader intent on destroying his rivals is exactly the same as ... using available information to benefit a population indiscriminately with the hope of giving a brutalized people a stake in the future.

[Iakus]

You can question Mordin about his change of heart on the Normandy.  He tells you working with Eve and the other test subjects changed his mind about the genophage, which in ME2 he already called "ethically difficult"

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Really? I thought it was a pretty sound argument (in response to the notion that using Maelon's work will "encourage" unethical science).

 

That's Mordin being his hyperrational self, and its really hard to not agree with him on that particular point. The only time he's really ever seen showing emotion is his loyalty mission and the moment before having to lock in on the cure.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You can question Mordin about his change of heart on the Normandy.  He tells you working with Eve and the other test subjects changed his mind about the genophage, which in ME2 he already called "ethically difficult"

 

Uh. No. He doesnt. He continues to rationalize his work on it pre-Reaper and his decision to work on a cure post-Reaper. He doesnt actually explain the why on the Normandy at all.

[Jorji Costava]

Mordin's 180 on the genophage was actually one of the things I minded least about ME3. The seeds of doubt were obvious in ME2; sometimes, the most vociferous proponents of a view are that way precisely because of the doubts they feel within their own mind, and their aggressive defense of their views is a way to deal with the resulting cognitive dissonance. And I was totally fine with the idea that Shepard wasn't the single most important influence on Mordin's life; it only makes sense that the character should have of a life of his own outside of his interactions with The Shepard, and that these experiences could potentially influence his beliefs every bit as much as, if not more than, his interactions with the PC.

[guigaccess]

Gotta agree with OP.

 

Mordin is my favorite character and I felt kinda sad that I lost that line in my playthrough since I told the truth about the genophage as soon as possible. That line is key to his development, it should be there as default. I only found out about it because I went yo YouTube to see the different outcomes of that scene!

 

As some said, in ME2 you can clearly see that Mordin is NOT ok with the genophage. Still, he tries to cover that with all kind of rational explanations to avoid facing the fact that he actually regrets what he did. Mordin is not stupid, he knows the genophage in technical terms is not as terrible as people made out, but it has psychologycal effects that would end the krogan still. He knew the implications, even though he was trying to keep everything as technical as possible, he was just running away from himself. I believe there is a moment when Shepard points that out, saying he will not be able to rationalize things forever.

 

In ME3, Mordin decides the genophage must be undone. You know by then that at some point he realized he was wrong. But, still, he can't admit it to the others. When questioned about it, he will insist that he never made any mistake and the reason he thinks differently now is because the circumstances are different. He did what was right back then and he is doing what is right now, even if one thing it the opposite of the other.

 

 

Only in that scene, when he comes out yelling "I WAS WRONG" he manages to be completely sincere. He manages to face honestly what he did. Everything that Mordin did in almost all of his interactions with Shepard was deny the exact feeling that was the root of his character inside the plot: guilt. And only in that scene, not in the Normandy, he finally reaches closure in that subject by not only seeing but speaking the truth. That's why I think that line shouldn't be so easy to miss.

[KaiserShep]

I always felt that Mordin's change in ME3 seemed natural. Otherwise, all his obvious doubts in ME2 were pointless.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And with the shroud destroyed... the radiation from the sun of Tuchanka will bake the terrain making life extremely difficult for the exploding Krogan population. The Krogan will no longer view every birth as precious. Krogan males will no longer leave the planet to fight in merc bands, but rather fight for their own clans. They will build real ground pounders and go to war over precious things like water and food since Tuchanka is a wasteland. And they'll blow it up again, making it fit only for the rachni to take it over. All to satisfy the demands of a warlord, and the guilt of a Salarian.

 

But wait! They'll get a new homeworld. Yet the Quarians got to float in space for 300 years without one. Such is the logic of the Mass Effect Universe.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I always felt that Mordin's change in ME3 seemed natural. Otherwise, all his obvious doubts in ME2 were pointless.

 

That is why alot of people feel like that his 180 does feel natural. He sees what needs to be done, and has a logical rationalization for why it must be done. Everyone is used to and familiar with his hyperrationality when it comes down to just about everything, some moments being exceptions for obvious reasons. When it comes down to his death, without that emotional admission from him, it just makes it look like just another thing he rationalized and alot of the meaning that went with his death effectively is lost.

 

With the line, the cure goes from something that had to be done for everyone, to something he needed to do to atone for the damage he did. It made his death more meaningful and have more of an impact that sticks with the player, and hopefully also shown to do the same through Shepard.

 

And with the shroud destroyed... the radiation from the sun of Tuchanka will bake the terrain making life extremely difficult for the exploding Krogan population. The Krogan will no longer view every birth as precious. Krogan males will no longer leave the planet to fight in merc bands, but rather fight for their own clans. They will build real ground pounders and go to war over precious things like water and food since Tuchanka is a wasteland. And they'll blow it up again, making it fit only for the rachni to take it over. All to satisfy the demands of a warlord, and the guilt of a Salarian.

 

But wait! They'll get a new homeworld. Yet the Quarians got to float in space for 300 years without one. Such is the logic of the Mass Effect Universe.

 

Shroud tower being destroyed != the Shroud itself being destroyed. I think it would be noticeable to see a massive orbiting structure in space falling back into the atmosphere and just how much brighter the sun would have gotten when that started.

[guigaccess]

And with the shroud destroyed... the radiation from the sun of Tuchanka will bake the terrain making life extremely difficult for the exploding Krogan population. The Krogan will no longer view every birth as precious. Krogan males will no longer leave the planet to fight in merc bands, but rather fight for their own clans. They will build real ground pounders and go to war over precious things like water and food since Tuchanka is a wasteland. And they'll blow it up again, making it fit only for the rachni to take it over. All to satisfy the demands of a warlord, and the guilt of a Salarian.

 

But wait! They'll get a new homeworld. Yet the Quarians got to float in space for 300 years without one. Such is the logic of the Mass Effect Universe.

Then kill them. Grow a quad and finish your job.

 

That's what the turian and salarian couldn't do. Everyone was fine with the rachni going extinct, so they shouldn't have a problem doing he same with the krogan.

 

If they couldn't defeat the krogan straight on and had to resort to the genophage to lower their numbers, no problem. But once the krogan were outnumbered and were defeated, if the others races really believe they have no ability to learn from their past mistakes and/or improve and will always be looking for a war if the chance is given, if they really thought the krogan couldn't do betterh, once the genophage turned the tables they should have eradicated the krogan once and for all.

 

You think they can learn from their defeat and peace out? Then lift the genophage and find ethical ways of keeping them under control (like limiting their amount of battleships and weaponry). You think they can't? Then don't halfass things, finish them off instead of punishing a whole race for eternity by keeping them alive and forcing them to see 99,9% of their babies be stillborn for generations after generations until they die out drowned in despair.

 

 

1,000 years is too much for a temporary action, if the council was not strong enough to step up and finish what they started, it was time to let it go.

[KaiserShep]

I agree. If the krogan are beyond saving, there's no point in keeping their species under the thumb of a bioweapon. It ensures that there's never any hope of any real relations with their world, or what's left of it, and it necessitates babysitting them with research teams and scientists to maintain that bioweapon with nothing in return except for coddling the collective consciences of government officials.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I tend too agree that Mordin 180 is very jarring but that's the best arc in the entire game. The death of Mordin made me cry like a baby, but his guilt was in ME2. During the mission he starts to see the error of his ways, when he see the dead female.

 

I personally find Mordin's guilt unfounded. I saw what the Krogan were throughout all 3 games and honestly feel that Mordin made no error with the Krogan. 

 

Or rather, he did; He didn't go far enough. The Krogan are undeserving of anything more than complete extinction. The galaxy will be a much better place with those barbarians gone forever. The only reason I needed the Krogan in ME3 was because they'd make useful fodder against the Reapers. 

[KaiserShep]

You have to remember that Mordin considered the eradication of the rachni as tragic, so that shows where his feelings are.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You have to remember that Mordin considered the eradication of the rachni as tragic, so that shows where his feelings are.

 

 

I honestly don't see what's tragic about the death/extinction/genocide of any particular race is to be honest.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Ther's nothing hypocritical or weird about it. Mordin was always plagued by ethical concerns about his work on the genophage, especially every time he saw it in person. He processed it quickly and was able to rationalize it all away quickly all the time, yes. But only afterwards, when no longer in contact with the results of his actions.

 

In Mass Effect 3, the friggin' galaxy is at stake. So yes, of course the rational course of action is doing whatever the krogan want in exchange for their badass legions on Palaven. Mordin is a consequentalist, an "ends justifies the means" type of guy. His work was justified because it adressed a necessity at the time. A resurgent krogan that would overcome the genophage our of nowhere would be a grave threat indeed.

In Mass Effect 3 the end is defeating the Reapers bu unifying the galaxy. One of the means to achieve this is the ending of the genophage. This ensures a resurgent krogan race, yes. But from the beginning this is in cooperation with the rest of the galaxy, as one of many species. Even many krogan will most likely see this, and be less inclined to start a new galactic war anytime soon. Especially with Wrex in power and a unified krogan planet within galactic civilization.

 

Betraying the krogan in Mass Effect 3 by sabotaging the genophage cure is pretty much unspeakably monstrous. Not surprising that Mordin wouldn't agree to it. Even from a purely consequentalist perspective, betraying the krogan would be stupid. It would merely lead to new wars once they find out later that the cure was not genuine, and this would lead to massive casualties on both sides. And most likely with the complete annihilation of the krogan species, once again something Mordin is heavily opposed to.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

I personally find Mordin's guilt unfounded. I saw what the Krogan were throughout all 3 games and honestly feel that Mordin made no error with the Krogan. 

 

Or rather, he did; He didn't go far enough. The Krogan are undeserving of anything more than complete extinction. The galaxy will be a much better place with those barbarians gone forever. The only reason I needed the Krogan in ME3 was because they'd make useful fodder against the Reapers. 

 

What a wonderful case of generalization. Replace "krogan" with "jews", "blacks", "latino's", ... It's really not more advanced than other racist rantings.