216 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

You were talking about their inherent barbarism; the change to the N7 mission would be a demonstration of that kind of aggression, giving players a reason to question just how much they can be trusted as allies. By fighting Krogan, we'd see both how tough they are (why they'd be a valuable allied force), and why people like the Dalatrass are worried about a Krogan population explosion in the event that they turn that aggression on others. In the wake of that mission, I'd think it appropriate to question Wrex on whether curing the Krogan all at once is actually a good idea - by doing so, he's empowering his enemies at the same time and undermining the power base he built by gathering fertile females to his banner.

The change to the Tuchanka Bomb plot would be another side of that. They think the Turians are there to cover up the bomb. In truth, they are, and we're helping them do it. It makes Shepard's actions a bit questionable, leaving grounds for tension regardless of the outcome of the Tuchanka arc, showing both how the Krogan have been exploited and cause to believe they'd want revenge.

 

That makes sense. I'm not sure it would solve all the problems (I'm still worried about drawing potential connections to scientific racism, but I certainly understand if others don't share those concerns); still, it's a definite improvement. There's no doubt that subtlety was not one of the strong points of ME3.

[AlanC9]

I am pro-cure, but I think the ones who don't want it to be cured should be allowed to make it in an ethical way. You don't want to cure it? Then you should be allowed to come straight at the krogan's leader face and say you are not giving them what they want. .

So, just go right to losing krogan support? Tough sell with Victus.

[DeinonSlayer]

That makes sense. I'm not sure it would solve all the problems (I'm still worried about drawing potential connections to scientific racism, but I certainly understand if others don't share those concerns); still, it's a definite improvement. There's no doubt that subtlety was not one of the strong points of ME3.

Tuchanka: Bomb could have ended with a potentially interesting moral choice. Kill the last Krogan witnesses to keep the bomb under wraps (if they don't know about it, they won't be mad about it after the war), or let them go, allowing the Krogan to recover the disarmed bomb before the Turians can do so and possibly planting the seeds of future Krogan/Turian animosity?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

So, just go right to losing krogan support? Tough sell with Victus.

 

Only if he gets nothing in the case of a straight up cure rejection, which I dont think is the case with the suggestion. It would be a bit nice to see more salarian support though in some form that would still be of significant aid to the Turians.

[KaiserShep]

Problem is that the salarians don't have the raw strength to give the turians the support they require. They can do sabotage and use advanced weapons, but infantry is a no go.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

As is wont to happen on these threads, we're getting further off topic, so I won't address all your points. Anyways, the idea that the collective is an individual is problematic on a number of levels. First, just because the collective has a certain property, it doesn't follow that members of the collective have it too; to suppose otherwise would be a straightforward instance of a compositional fallacy. In some cases it might increase the likelihood that I have a certain characteristic, but that's an epistemological point, and the concept of collective guilt is not an epistemological concept.

 

Secondly, there's a generality problem lurking here: I'm a member of lots of collectives; I'm an American, I'm a teacher, I'm a member of a family, etc. These collectives can have conflicting general characteristics. For instance, most Americans are religious, but most philosophy teachers are not. Which collective 'counts,' for moral purposes?

 

As far as the David comparison, the point was not to explicitly compare you to David7204 but to simply point out that it's not generally possible to know whether or not a person will ever change based on a few personal encounters. Seeing as you've on multiple occasions suggested that people like myself have less of a right to exist, simply by virtue of not having the same occupation as you, I'd say it's an exceedingly minor offense.

 

I don't see how it doesn't follow that an aspect of a collective can't be applied to the people that constitute it. Does every person have the trait? No. But in my opinion, that's not the relevant issue. The issue is that the trait exists. If it's on a large scale, then I see it as a trait that is worthy of being placed on the whole. 

[Jorji Costava]

Tuchanka: Bomb could have ended with a potentially interesting moral choice. Kill the last Krogan witnesses to keep the bomb under wraps (if they don't know about it, they won't be mad about it after the war), or let them go, allowing the Krogan to recover the disarmed bomb before the Turians can do so and possibly planting the seeds of future Krogan/Turian animosity?

 

Interesting. Sometimes I think it would have been better if the games had consisted more of precisely these somewhat smaller-scale decisions, as opposed to the much larger scale ones (i.e. "Decide if the genophage gets cured or not!" "Decide which race goes extinct!", etc.).

 

I don't see how it doesn't follow that an aspect of a collective can't be applied to the people that constitute it. Does every person have the trait? No. But in my opinion, that's not the relevant issue. The issue is that the trait exists. If it's on a large scale, then I see it as a trait that is worthy of being placed on the whole. 

 

I don't see how it can fail to be relevant. To say that the trait exists is simply to say that there is a large number of individuals within a social group who have the trait. Ultimately, it's individuals who have to bear the consequences of the judgment of collective guilt. If there were some entity called "the collective" that somehow existed "in addition to" the individuals who comprise it, and if it were possible to render judgment on this collective without simultaneously rendering judgment on the individuals, I could better understand your position. But I don't think there exists any such entity.

[DeinonSlayer]

Interesting. Sometimes I think it would have been better if the games had consisted more of precisely these somewhat smaller-scale decisions, as opposed to the much larger scale ones (i.e. "Decide if the genophage gets cured or not!" "Decide which race goes extinct!", etc.).

Yeah. I think it'd be interesting if the big ones (which race goes extinct, how they relate to each other after the war) happened as a cumulative result of actions taken up to that point, as opposed to dropping a Big Choice in front of the player. Shepard had far too much of a Messiah vibe, particularly in ME3.

 

Don't drop the hammer. Don't make galaxy-altering events. Influence the circumstances which lead to them. It'd be subtle, but it'd require more attention and thought on the part of the player.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

I don't see how it can fail to be relevant. To say that the trait exists is simply to say that there is a large number of individuals within a social group who have the trait. Ultimately, it's individuals who have to bear the consequences of the judgment of collective guilt. If there were some entity called "the collective" that somehow existed "in addition to" the individuals who comprise it, and if it were possible to render judgment on this collective without simultaneously rendering judgment on the individuals, I could better understand your position. But I don't think there exists any such entity.

 

I don't make such a distinction between the individuals and the social group. To me (and this is my view) the individuals are like red blood cells in the body of the collective group. Judgement on one is judgement on the other. I suppose that might be a sufficiently alien perspective on my part compared to others. No such entity truly exists beyond a military setting, in which a semi/pseudo-version of it exists; for example (and I know you grow irritated by my personal accounts, but I do feel they are entirely valid to my discussions for the most part) any problem a Soldier has is seen as a failure of his or her leadership and his unit. A Soldier has a problem such as not being able to shoot straight and fails to qualify? Then everyone in the Company has the problem since we aren't all up to standard. One of us not being up to standard is everyone not being up to standard collectively. All of us are judged to have failed since, as Soldiers, we are judged to have failed one of our own with his or her problem, thus failing as a Company to perform a necessary task of being a Soldier. What does this mean for us? Those kinds of problems are put into the Company record held by the higher unit, placed in writing on the evaluation for each Officer with a command within the unit (and with the unit, since Officers aren't part of units) and NCO in the unit. Each Soldier also has documentation that they were in a unit that underperformed while they were a member. If the Soldier chooses to continue his or her career, this can (and will, from personal experience) be brought up at each annual evaluation and any promotion boards and special training selection, and it can hinder your career development. I've seen Soldiers denied slots to Ranger or Special Forces school because they were in a unit where several Soldiers didn't pass the PT Test. And honestly, I believe it should be like this. If one Soldier is failing in PT or on the Range, then everyone is failing because they didn't prevent that Soldier from failing.

[wolfhowwl]

Interesting. Sometimes I think it would have been better if the games had consisted more of precisely these somewhat smaller-scale decisions, as opposed to the much larger scale ones (i.e. "Decide if the genophage gets cured or not!" "Decide which race goes extinct!", etc.).

 

Well Mass Effect 3 is the final game, we may as well burn down the house. BioWare doesn't have to worry about delivering the consequences for a galaxy that may or may not have Quarians, Geth, Hanar, and so on.

 

For the earlier games, this absolutely would have been preferable. Significant choices created an expectation of significant consequences that completely clashes with BioWare's design philosophy of creating core content that everyone experiences. If that is the approach that BioWare wants to have with their games then they need to match the scale of their choices with the consequences they can provide. The focus should have been on the player customizing the narrative instead of offering these epic choices that don't work with how they make games and only serve to make a hot mess for them to work around (i.e. Council, Collector Base, Suicide Mission).

[wolfhowwl]

Yeah. I think it'd be interesting if the big ones (which race goes extinct, how they relate to each other after the war) happened as a cumulative result of actions taken up to that point, as opposed to dropping a Big Choice in front of the player. Shepard had far too much of a Messiah vibe, particularly in ME3.

 

Don't drop the hammer. Don't make galaxy-altering events. Influence the circumstances which lead to them. It'd be subtle, but it'd require more attention and thought on the part of the player.

 

That could be good. I remember seeing someone suggest that instead of having a glorified CIA agent get to choose who would represent humanity in the most powerful organization in the galaxy, the player would instead be presented with opportunities to aid either Udina or Anderson throughout the game. The character that was helped would have their career furthered and then be voted in by the Alliance Parliament as a result. 

[Iakus]

Now that makes less sense than the "180 degree turn" Mordin makes about the genophage in the first place.

Then again, the entire series is based quite heavily on Shepard's powers of persuasion and leadership, so I understand why they did it.

 

To be fair, the only way Mordin agrees to this is if Wrex and Eve are both dead.  At that point Wreav rules the krogan alone, and is quite obvious that he's going to look for some payback after the Reapers are dealt with

[Iakus]

I have a conscious too. I couldn't sleep with myself at night knowing I let a race of psychotic reptiles that love causing carnage loose on the galaxy. 

 

Let them loose on the galaxy?  They're completely demilitarized!

 

They have to hitch a ride to get to Palaven!

 

 I hope they at east chipped in for gas 

 

If Wreav or whoever gets uppity, smack them down again.  There's a lot more spacefaring races out there now then there were during the Krogan Rebellions.  If they let the krogan become a major galactic threat again, they deserve what they get

[KaiserShep]

And unless some shady volus shipyard in the future was willing to build the krogan a new fleet on a heavy discount and very discretely, it's not likely that they'll be able to amass a force that can tear across the galaxy anytime soon either. All it would take is a few spy shots from a salarian or turian reconnaissance team to get the ball rolling to put the krogan down harder than before.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Problem is that the salarians don't have the raw strength to give the turians the support they require. They can do sabotage and use advanced weapons, but infantry is a no go.

*Ahem*



Kirrahe would like to have a word with you. 

[Big Bad]

I'm sure there are a few other things that might annoy some folks, but the one that really gets me is the one defining point that explains Mordin's 180 isnt available unless you wait till the last moment to make up your mind about the cure. That one line pretty much explains it all and instead of having it be something that could come up at any other point in that arc, its at a point that most people wont see, especially for those that are completely transparent in their intentions for the Krogan.

 

Ok, so I pretty much play the Genophage arc the same way every time, so I'm not even sure I've experienced the quote you're referring to in any of my playthroughs.  Can you elaborate and/or link to a video?

[KaiserShep]

*Ahem*



Kirrahe would like to have a word with you. 

 

Lol, hey that works well enough when the plan is to infiltrate a facility and then nuke it with a makeshift explosive, but battling swarms of reaper monsters is a different story.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Lol, hey that works well enough when the plan is to infiltrate a facility and then nuke it with a makeshift explosive, but battling swarms of reaper monsters is a different story.

Actually... that sounds like an effective strategy against the Reapers. Sneak in to one, set a bomb, run away and watch it go boom. 

Which is actually what the Krogan did. 

[congokong]

I think most players knew Mordin's real reason for his 180 on the genophage. It wasn't solely the "reaper invasion." He's too prideful to admit it until he was forced to come clean when you try to sabotage the cure. His emotions compromising the galaxy and his falsehood on his 180 annoyed me so I didn't mind shooting him. If the default krogan birth rate was 1,000,000 eggs a year people would still be making the same anti-genophage arguments. The game creators purposely gave an outrageous and horrifying number at 1,000 to see just how far people would take idealism. Apparently for some it has no limits; including Mordin.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I think most players knew Mordin's real reason for his 180 on the genophage. It wasn't solely the "reaper invasion." He's too prideful to admit it until he was forced to come clean when you try to sabotage the cure. His emotions compromising the galaxy and his falsehood on his 180 annoyed me so I didn't mind shooting him. I swear. If the default krogan birth rate was 1,000,000 eggs a year people would still be making the same anti-genophage arguments. The game creators purposely gave an outrageous and horrifying number at 1,000 to see just how far people would take idealism. Apparently for some it has no limits; including Mordin.

I agree. But still, the Reapers are an existential threat, and with Wrex in charge, it would be unwise to run the risk of the Krogan withdrawing their support, possibly even attacking the soldiers of the other races after they find out. 
 

Any problem can be dealt with after the extinction event has gone. Idealism isn't necessary to want to cure the Genophage. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Ok, so I pretty much play the Genophage arc the same way every time, so I'm not even sure I've experienced the quote you're referring to in any of my playthroughs.  Can you elaborate and/or link to a video?

 

To get that line you have to keep the Sabotage offer to yourself and you cant reveal it in the truck when Eve pokes at you about it. Once you are at the tower, choose to delay him to get that particular line. Its pretty much the only time you are going to see him let raw emotion take over to a point he raises his voice at you, or ever I think. You could possibly stretch it out from there to make it more dramatic before he goes up, but I didnt test my luck there because I dont remember how the trees play out since its been forever since I did my halfway run just for Kaidan's bonus powers.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem is that Bioware delivered us a broken species. Tuchanka has 3.2 billion Krogan. Now the population is stable with the genophage. Wrex said it isn't the genophage that is killing the Krogan. It's the Krogan. When was the last time you saw a Krogan scientist? Krogan would rather be off fighting for credits than improving Tuchanka. 998 stillborn in a clutch of 1000 per year per female. If half of the population is female then in 1 year you could multiply the population by OMG. The species is broken. I don't cure the genophage.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem is that Bioware delivered us a broken species. Tuchanka has 3.2 billion Krogan. Now the population is stable with the genophage. Wrex said it isn't the genophage that is killing the Krogan. It's the Krogan. When was the last time you saw a Krogan scientist? Krogan would rather be off fighting for credits than improving Tuchanka. 998 stillborn in a clutch of 1000 per year per female. If half of the population is female then in 1 year you could multiply the population by OMG. The species is broken. I don't cure the genophage.

 

Which is why I would have liked a neutral option where the Genophage isn't cured but the Krogan by themselves triumph over it -- which is where I was expecting it to end ever since hearing Wrex's opinion on the matter. I think it would have made for a better conclusion for the Krogan; unfortunately, it does take away Mordin's moment.

[SporkFu]

Which is why I would have liked a neutral option where the Genophage isn't cured but the Krogan by themselves triumph over it -- which is where I was expecting it to end ever since hearing Wrex's opinion on the matter. I think it would have made for a better conclusion for the Krogan; unfortunately, it does take away Mordin's moment.

Just out of curiosity, what method would you pick to have them triumph over the genophage? 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Just out of curiosity, what method would you pick to have them triumph over the genophage? 

 

The Krogan could have more people adopt Grunt's mindset. "**** the Genophage." *Insert Grunt laugh here*