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[Big Bad]

Did you stop and think that most Krogan thought like that because they never believed they would have a future because of the Genophage?

 

I think this is an important point.  The genophage itself probably had an important role in shaping the current cultural evolution (or lack thereof) of the Krogan.  If I recall correctly, Eve describes just how devastating the genophage is on a personal level.  I cannot imagine that it is anything but devastating on a cultural level as well.  That's not to say that the Krogan are not at all complicit in their current fate, but there are other factors at play here as well.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

So they just sit around feeling sorry for themselves instead of doing anything about it? Is that what you would do?

 

Krogan living their lives to the fullest extent they believe possible is feeling sorry for themselves? ****, I'll just point to Okeer considering he made Grunt to send the message of '**** the Genophage.'

[Mrs_Stick]

So they just sit around feeling sorry for themselves instead of doing anything about it? Is that what you would do?

What Krogan Scientist exist that would be able to create a crue? Even Mordin laughs at that idea. They are what they just because they are not like the human race does not mean they should not get a chance.

[themikefest]

What Krogan Scientist exist that would be able to create a crue? Even Mordin laughs at that idea. They are what they just because they are not like the human race does not mean they should not get a chance.

I don't know? What Krogan scientist could cure the genophage?

 

I was talking about them rebuilding their planet making life easier for themselves so that maybe in the future the council might give them a cure or at least consider it instead of the Krogan always wanting to kill everything in sight. 

[Mrs_Stick]

I don't know? What Krogan scientist could cure the genophage?

I was talking about them rebuilding their planet making life easier for themselves so that maybe in the future the council might give them a cure or at least consider it instead of the Krogan always wanting to kill everything in sight.

I view that more in the fact that they are barbarians. I will never fully understand their ways. With out the ability to have a viable population (1 in 1000) what hope do they really have. I can see having back up plans in case but I see no harm giving them a sliver of hope and a reason to rebuild their world.

Also I doubt any of the council races would agree to undo the genophage even if the Krogan had a united government.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Talk to the Krogan "scientist" with Wrex in charge in ME2. He's complaining about having to work on developing stuff like agriculture and how to feed people instead of working on "real science." He was working on a real ground pounder.

 

Talk to him under Wreav and he's happy.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I view that more in the fact that they are barbarians. I will never fully understand their ways. With out the ability to have a viable population (1 in 1000) what hope do they really have. I can see having back up plans in case but I see no harm giving them a sliver of hope and a reason to rebuild their world.

Also I doubt any of the council races would agree to undo the genophage even if the Krogan had a united government.

 

That is 1 in 1000 per year per female and Krogan live for 1000 years or longer. Figure 50 years before they start producing eggs and they produce a clutch of eggs every year for 600 years. Now imagine 1000 live births per year per female. They don't even have basic agriculture.

[Mrs_Stick]

That is 1 in 1000 per year per female and Krogan live for 1000 years or longer. Figure 50 years before they start producing eggs and they produce a clutch of eggs every year for 600 years. Now imagine 1000 live births per year per female. They don't even have basic agriculture.

Dangnabbit Julia!! I didn't want to do math today.

Okay so yes that is a lot. But with their already violent nature it would not be that many. Also not every female can have a child no matter how many eggs she lays. And even then most die in still birth so subtract those from your 1 in 1000. Makes the numbers a lot less.

[Obadiah]

Well, its not just that their population is forcibly "stabalized"; its been stabalized on a wasteland, while most other races are able to expand to new colonies. Unless the Krogan hire themselves offworld, they're pretty much reduced to living in hell, while witnessing an ongoing mass slaughter of their children by a bioweapon.

They're basically an institutionally oppressed species.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dangnabbit Julia!! I didn't want to do math today.

Okay so yes that is a lot. But with their already violent nature it would not be that many. Also not every female can have a child no matter how many eggs she lays. And even then most die in still birth so subtract those from your 1 in 1000. Makes the numbers a lot less.

 

Actually the number was two in 1000. I just played the scene with Wrex. He said he gave up on the Krogan a long time ago. The genophage isn't what's killing them. It's the fact that if given the choice between making their world a better place or running off in the galaxy killing for credits, a Krogan will take killing for credits every time. 

[Mrs_Stick]

Actually the number was two in 1000. I just played the scene with Wrex. He said he gave up on the Krogan a long time ago. The genophage isn't what's killing them. It's the fact that if given the choice between making their world a better place or running off in the galaxy killing for credits, a Krogan will take killing for credits every time.

I played Mordins LM last night he tells you 1 in 1000. Okay so maybe 2 in 1000 was them adapting to the genophage?

And yes they will choose fighting every time because that's who they are.

[Sundance31us]

Mordin's behavior in ME3 isn't unusual as long as you remember that he's an old man in a hurry.

From the medbay dialogue:

Shepard: Nothing else? No personal stake here?
Mordin: Getting old, Shepard. Not many years left. But still best candidate for project.
Mordin: Few salarian scientists interested in genophage. Non with my expertise. Had to be me.
Shepard: Someone else might have gotten it wrong?
Mordin: Possibly. Stakes to high for inexperience. But not about them.
Mordin: My work. My job to put it right. To prove I can.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Mordin's behavior in ME3 isn't unusual as long as you remember that he's an old man in a hurry.

From the medbay dialogue:

Shepard: Nothing else? No personal stake here?
Mordin: Getting old, Shepard. Not many years left. But still best candidate for project.
Mordin: Few salarian scientists interested in genophage. Non with my expertise. Had to be me.
Shepard: Someone else might have gotten it wrong?
Mordin: Possibly. Stakes to high for inexperience. But not about them.
Mordin: My work. My job to put it right. To prove I can.

 

And that is Mordin rationalizing, as he ALWAYS has done.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I played Mordins LM last night he tells you 1 in 1000. Okay so maybe 2 in 1000 was them adapting to the genophage?

And yes they will choose fighting every time because that's who they are.

 

It varies from game to game, from book to book, from codex to game. From writer to writer. And now "No one ever meets the Shadow Broker face to face...." to Zaeed has a face to face with the Yahg in Foundation 11. See the last line in my signature. It's true. It's true. It's damned true.

[DeinonSlayer]

And that is Mordin rationalizing, as he ALWAYS has done.

He made a good case for the genophage in ME2. Seems like his "big picture made of little pictures" bit is him (very understandably) succumbing to emotion.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

He made a good case for the genophage in ME2. Seems like his "big picture made of little pictures" bit is him (very understandably) succumbing to emotion.

 

That scene IS Mordin finally letting his emotions show. The outburst itself is probably the first real emotion we have seen in the character itself.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Is it so much trouble to quarantine them that extermination is the only option on the table? I agree that they're predisposed to violence, unlikely to play well with others, but also demilitarized and incapable of spreading - i.e. not a viable threat. If they're destined to destroy themselves, let them do it in isolation. If on the off-chance their civilization stabilizes, leave the door open for gradual integration into galactic society.

 

I can get behind this; practically, it is easier to leave them to their fate, but under no circumstances are they ever welcome to reintegration into society.

[Iakus]

"Forever" is an awfully long time...

[Vigilant111]

This is so wrong that I couldnt ignore it. It is a 180. Mordin justified his work on the Genophage modification all the way to the very end until you call him on it at the Shroud Tower. Just because he recognized the moral and ethical dilemmas involved in his work, doesnt mean that he'd stop justifying it.

 

Okay, I admittedly mistakened the subject of your original post, I apologize for that

 

Anyway, I assume you meant to comment that Mordin's justifications for the Genophage and its cure are contradictory? but Mordin had always been a pragmatic person, it is the purpose of his projects which drives him, the need for a desperate measure overrules all other considerations. During ME2, no matter how you probe Mordin about his personal feelings about what he has done, he always seem to evade the questions, so you kind of get the idea that his morality or justifications are not very relevant (of course there is also a chance that he fully acknowledges the moral wrongs of the Genophage but just didn't want to admit it).

 

Also, Mordin is also quite flexible and adaptive to changing environments, in ME3 he have said that he helped with the cure because the political situation required such...apparently he had left the philosophical and moral debates to the politicians. Sure it would seem a big shift from administering a virus to developing a cure but these are actions which are consistent to Mordin's justifications, in ME3, a plausible justification for the cure would be the reapers are killing off people quicker than they can reproduce (not a very good one but there it is, afterall, population control tends to have time lags)

 

All in all, Mordin is just there to deliver the means, whatever Shepard or the council does with it is their business, Mordin's justifications weren't strikingly contradictory as he is purpose-driven unless you say oh Mordin harboured harsh feelings toward the krogan before and now he is all benevolent to them out of kindness

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Okay, I admittedly mistakened the subject of your original post, I apologize for that

 

Anyway, I assume you meant to comment that Mordin's justifications for the Genophage and its cure are contradictory? but Mordin had always been a pragmatic person, it is the purpose of his projects which drives him, the need for a desperate measure overrules all other considerations. During ME2, no matter how you probe Mordin about his personal feelings about what he has done, he always seem to evade the questions, so you kind of get the idea that his morality or justifications are not very relevant (of course there is also a chance that he fully acknowledge the moral wrongs of the Genophage but just don't want to admit it).

 

Also, Mordin is also quite flexible and adaptive to changing environments, in ME3 he have said that he helped with the cure because the political situation required such...apparently he had left the philosophical and moral debates to the politicians. Sure it would seem a big shift from administering a virus to developing a cure but these are actions which are consistent to Mordin's justifications, in ME3, a plausible justification for the cure would be the reapers are killing off people quicker than they can reproduce (not a very good one but there it is, afterall, population control tends to have time lags)

 

All in all, Mordin is just there to deliver the means, whatever Shepard or the council does with it is their business, Mordin's justifications weren't strikingly contradictory as he is purpose-driven unless you say oh Mordin harboured harsh feelings toward the krogan before and now he is all benevolent to them out of kindness

 

Mordin really was a dodgy mofo in ME2 when that subject came up even with all the pressure Shep was putting down to force more than a pragmatic and systematic wave of justifications for what he did. In ME3 he was still a bit dodgy in his responses, but the justifications just felt a bit more empty even if they were still sound.

 

As someone else has already brought up, its very likely that seeing the actual results of the Genophage first hand and the levels of desperation the Krogan were resorting to have something more than the doomed lives they already had probably made something snap inside of him. Just on his own after the modification project, Mordin did have some trouble dealing with all of the issues that came up as a result of his work, to a point where he had a crisis of faith as Shep put it during the LM. That said, just because Mordin justified why he did the 180 in the first place in the Normandy, still doesnt explain why he felt he had to do it. The timing and means of getting the explanation just felt a bit poor to me considering that he shouldnt have had his arm twisted just to make him come out about his guilt and the need he felt to make up for what he had done. Might just be me, but admitting to that with a bit of prodding, either in private or maybe in front of Eve and Wrex might have done something to bring a general change of opinion in the Krogan people to hear that a Salarian helped them because he wanted to and not because he had to or was being forced to.

[Aimi]

He made a good case for the genophage in ME2. Seems like his "big picture made of little pictures" bit is him (very understandably) succumbing to emotion.

Maybe. I bring it back to what he said at the end of his loyalty mission. He justified the genophage with the STG threat projections and analysis early on, but during the course of the conversation Shepard can push him toward the belief that those threat projections were flawed. Then, once Maelon is dealt with, he calls up the cure data: "...still valuable, though. Could cure the genophage. Don't know. Effects on krogan, effects on galaxy - too many variables! Too many variables!" It's a recognition that one of the moral underpinnings of the genophage modification project was not all that sound after all.

One might argue that Mordin never "succumbed" to emotion in the first place. His initial justification for the genophage project was just as emotional: a belief that the end of the genophage meant war and the ultimate extinction of the krogan. His justification for curing the genophage came from a similar place: a belief that leaving the krogan as they were, not curing the genophage, would be the certain path toward extinction, and that curing it offered the possibility of survival.

[Dean_the_Young]

Maybe. I bring it back to what he said at the end of his loyalty mission. He justified the genophage with the STG threat projections and analysis early on, but during the course of the conversation Shepard can push him toward the belief that those threat projections were flawed. Then, once Maelon is dealt with, he calls up the cure data: "...still valuable, though. Could cure the genophage. Don't know. Effects on krogan, effects on galaxy - too many variables! Too many variables!" It's a recognition that one of the moral underpinnings of the genophage modification project was not all that sound after all.

One might argue that Mordin never "succumbed" to emotion in the first place. His initial justification for the genophage project was just as emotional: a belief that the end of the genophage meant war and the ultimate extinction of the krogan. His justification for curing the genophage came from a similar place: a belief that leaving the krogan as they were, not curing the genophage, would be the certain path toward extinction, and that curing it offered the possibility of survival.

 

I think guilt and emotion had something to do with it as well (based off his comments if you persuade him in a no Wrex/no Eve scenario), but I broadly agree that he was thinking in utilitarian-morality terms both times. He was never indifferent: detached, perhaps, but aware of the ethical implications. That it went from abstract to personal, I think, was a good character point for him.

 

Honestly, Mordin and his genophage delimma are my favorite parts of the ME trilogy. On multiple levels I think they were the strongest and most ambiguous topics explored, and the least blatant about any 'best' solution (until the EC slides). Mordin in particular is great as an actor with a conscience and doubts: whether you agree with him or not at any point, he approaches his ethics with a great deal of thought and maturity.

[Bardox9]

Mordin feels responsible for the still born babies that result from his work on the Genophage. Understandable, but not reason to cure the Genophage. People who champion the cure either ignore the reason the Genophage was created and ultimately used. The Krogan population exploded due to their refusal to institute population controls and began raiding other occupied worlds for resources. The Genophage was used to halt their galaxy wide slaughter.

 

This was not something that was done by some distant ancestors. This is just one generation out from the Krogan of ME3. Modern Krogan culture has not changed from those days. If anything, they are more aggressive. The risks are too great for blind optimism and the guilty conscience of one old Salarian to sway the decision of curing the Genophage.

 

As a race, the Krogan have shown no remorse for the actions of their fathers and mothers in the Rebellions. The "piles of children that never lived" is the punishment for the pile of victims their parents left in their wake on every world they attacked. It may have been a long time ago by Human, Turian, and Salarian standards, but not so long by Asari and Krogan standards.

 

it has been said by many that the Krogan race is going extinct due to the Genophage, but as I have said several times they are dying out because they are killing each other. The number one cause of Krogan deaths on Tuchanka is by gunshot from another Krogan. If they would focus on rebuilding their world rather that routinely attacking each other, their populations would be stable if not growing.

[KaiserShep]

I can get behind this; practically, it is easier to leave them to their fate, but under no circumstances are they ever welcome to reintegration into society.

 

Permanent quarantine is not really a feasible option, because it depends largely on the general mindset of people way off in the future, and there's no way to make people stand by the perpetuity of such a law unless the conditions never change or change for the worse. If the krogan were to avoid destroying themselves, and find some kind of equilibrium within their society, the incentive to maintain this quarantine will start to deteriorate, and in time, the people who were most adamant about it may very well be dead. Hell, the salarians would have gone through several generations within a single krogan lifetime.

 

it has been said by many that the Krogan race is going extinct due to the Genophage, but as I have said several times they are dying out because they are killing each other. The number one cause of Krogan deaths on Tuchanka is by gunshot from another Krogan. If they would focus on rebuilding their world rather that routinely attacking each other, their populations would be stable if not growing.

 

Well, this is pretty much what we learn from Wrex, but in ME2, they were slowly working on a solution that could get around the genophage. But none of it matters in the end, because any opportunity to really adjust to life with the genophage was taken away by the reapers.

[Excella Gionne]

Mordin feels responsible for the still born babies that result from his work on the Genophage. Understandable, but not reason to cure the Genophage. People who champion the cure either ignore the reason the Genophage was created and ultimately used. The Krogan population exploded due to their refusal to institute population controls and began raiding other occupied worlds for resources. The Genophage was used to halt their galaxy wide slaughter.

 

This was not something that was done by some distant ancestors. This is just one generation out from the Krogan of ME3. Modern Krogan culture has not changed from those days. If anything, they are more aggressive. The risks are too great for blind optimism and the guilty conscience of one old Salarian to sway the decision of curing the Genophage.

 

As a race, the Krogan have shown no remorse for the actions of their fathers and mothers in the Rebellions. The "piles of children that never lived" is the punishment for the pile of victims their parents left in their wake on every world they attacked. It may have been a long time ago by Human, Turian, and Salarian standards, but not so long by Asari and Krogan standards.

 

it has been said by many that the Krogan race is going extinct due to the Genophage, but as I have said several times they are dying out because they are killing each other. The number one cause of Krogan deaths on Tuchanka is by gunshot from another Krogan. If they would focus on rebuilding their world rather that routinely attacking each other, their populations would be stable if not growing.

And Mordin should feel responsible, because he led the team on Tuchanka that released the Modified Genophage. Everything he said about "evolution" is crap, because he just contradicted himself. It would have taken hundreds or thousands of years for the Krogan to fully adapt out of the Genophage, but yet again, Salarians boot them with another Genophage.

 

There is an origin to a mistake, and that origin originated from the Salarians. Uplifting a race that hasn't even evolved to the point of Mass Effect Technology will come back to bite you in the ***! Yes, the Genophage was used to ensure the Krogans couldn't populate at extreme numbers and to minimize the rate in which they can replace lost Krogans within the Krogan rebellions. Eventually, the generation of Krogans during the Krogan rebellions died, obviously. But their problem eventually becomes their children's problems, and so on and so forth. Your children pay for your mistakes, and eventually they will blame those who have made their lives miserable as well. That is why Krogans don't show remorse to those that have been killed during their fathers' and mothers' days. Within every generation of the Genophage being in effect, there are less Krogans to replace the older Krogans, and yes, eventually they do go extinct from natural causes. Killing your own kind is a natural response by nature, and I am pretty sure that is apparent even to humans. When one goes desperately hungry, they kill another person who has food. Same thing applies to the Krogans, but in a different manner but same concept, they kill each other for survival and for resources because of their nuclear wars.

 

 

Tuchanka's resources aren't enough to fully stabilize situations on Tuchanka for long, they will eventually need to inhabit another world due to their world being strained of resources and consisting of bare wastelands due to Nuclear War. If they wanted to rebuild they need off-world resources.

 

No species is perfect in their own right, but Humans are the most diverse aliens because every individual is vastly different from one another than individuals from another species. For Krogans, they are naturally aggressive, yes, and they have yet to evolve out of it because of their long lifespans that equal Asari lifespans. Their uplifting has skipped many generations of evolution, and all of that is due to the Salarianss uplifting of the Krogan. The uplifting was the main problem, everything else is a casualty of that problem...