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[Excella Gionne]

The Genophage causes an imbalance to evolution of life just as much as Council uplifting. Council uplifting is unethical. Only by curing the Genophage can balance be restored to every life form that lives on that galaxy. If a species were to go extinct, let it be a natural cause, and not a synthetic disease. But because Reapers exist, they control how things really go.....

[SporkFu]

I'm not one to read codex entries, but is it described anywhere other ways that the salarians uplifted the krogan, I mean besides the shroud and new and better ways to kill things? 

[Excella Gionne]

I'm not one to read codex entries, but is it described anywhere other ways that the salarians uplifted the krogan, I mean besides the shroud and new and better ways to kill things? 

The Shroud was used to gain Krogan support 2,000 years ago during the Rachni War. There were more than one tower, but they were all eventually destroyed, and the remaining tower became known as The Shroud. The towers were built to stabilize Tuchanka's climate due to the Krogan's winter nuclear war. It doesn't really specify other than what we can assume such as Mass Effect technology. I had to recorrect myself on my other post.... :-/

[SporkFu]

Mordin feels responsible for the still born babies that result from his work on the Genophage. Understandable, but not reason to cure the Genophage. People who champion the cure either ignore the reason the Genophage was created and ultimately used. The Krogan population exploded due to their refusal to institute population controls and began raiding other occupied worlds for resources. The Genophage was used to halt their galaxy wide slaughter.

 

This was not something that was done by some distant ancestors. This is just one generation out from the Krogan of ME3. Modern Krogan culture has not changed from those days. If anything, they are more aggressive. The risks are too great for blind optimism and the guilty conscience of one old Salarian to sway the decision of curing the Genophage.

 

As a race, the Krogan have shown no remorse for the actions of their fathers and mothers in the Rebellions. The "piles of children that never lived" is the punishment for the pile of victims their parents left in their wake on every world they attacked. It may have been a long time ago by Human, Turian, and Salarian standards, but not so long by Asari and Krogan standards.

 

it has been said by many that the Krogan race is going extinct due to the Genophage, but as I have said several times they are dying out because they are killing each other. The number one cause of Krogan deaths on Tuchanka is by gunshot from another Krogan. If they would focus on rebuilding their world rather that routinely attacking each other, their populations would be stable if not growing.

Isn't it possible that the reasons why the krogan culture hasn't changed since the rebellions, and why they are possibly more aggressive than they used to be, are rooted in the genophage itself? It's all tied in together. I think it depends on who is in charge after the cure too; if it's Wreav then that could be disastrous. if it's Wrex and Bakara, they'll make sure the culture changes. 

 

And Mordin should feel responsible, because he led the team on Tuchanka that released the Modified Genophage. Everything he said about "evolution" is crap, because he just contradicted himself. It would have taken hundreds or thousands of years for the Krogan to fully adapt out of the Genophage, but yet again, Salarians boot them with another Genophage.

 

There is an origin to a mistake, and that origin originated from the Salarians. Uplifting a race that hasn't even evolved to the point of Mass Effect Technology will come back to bite you in the ***! Yes, the Genophage was used to ensure the Krogans couldn't populate at extreme numbers and to minimize the rate in which they can replace lost Krogans within the Krogan rebellions. Eventually, the generation of Krogans during the Krogan rebellions died, obviously. But their problem eventually becomes their children's problems, and so on and so forth. Your children pay for your mistakes, and eventually they will blame those who have made their lives miserable as well. That is why Krogans don't show remorse to those that have been killed during their fathers' and mothers' days. Within every generation of the Genophage being in effect, there are less Krogans to replace the older Krogans, and yes, eventually they do go extinct from natural causes. Killing your own kind is a natural response by nature, and I am pretty sure that is apparent even to humans. When one goes desperately hungry, they kill another person who has food. Same thing applies to the Krogans, but in a different manner but same concept, they kill each other for survival and for resources because of their nuclear wars.

 

 

Tuchanka's resources aren't enough to fully stabilize situations on Tuchanka for long, they will eventually need to inhabit another world due to their world being strained of resources and consisting of bare wastelands due to Nuclear War. If they wanted to rebuild they need off-world resources.

 

No species is perfect in their own right, but Humans are the most diverse aliens because every individual is vastly different from one another than individuals from another species. For Krogans, they are naturally aggressive, yes, and they have yet to evolve out of it because of their long lifespans that equal Asari lifespans. Their uplifting has skipped many generations of evolution, and all of that is due to the Salarianss uplifting of the Krogan. The uplifting was the main problem, everything else is a casualty of that problem...

Well said. 

The Shroud was used to gain Krogan support 2,000 years ago during the Rachni War. There were more than one tower, but they were all eventually destroyed, and the remaining tower became known as The Shroud. The towers were built to stabilize Tuchanka's climate due to the Krogan's winter nuclear war. It doesn't really specify other than what we can assume such as Mass Effect technology. I had to recorrect myself on my other post.... :-/

Okay, thank you. 

[Excella Gionne]

Isn't it possible that the reasons why the krogan culture hasn't changed since the rebellions, and why they are possibly more aggressive than they used to be, are rooted in the genophage itself? It's all tied in together. I think it depends on who is in charge after the cure too; if it's Wreav then that could be disastrous. if it's Wrex and Bakara, they'll make sure the culture changes. 

Wrex and Bakara are determined to restore glory to their race and they choose to preserve the old ways of the ancient Krogan when they were still a proud race, but because of Nuclear advancements the krogans started to fight one another. This applies directly to Humans as well in the manner of nuclear war. 

 

The uplifting + the genophage only made things worse...that is why Bakara says that they become wandering killers and hiring themselves out as mercenaries which is basically what Wrex said as well back in ME1. Their species have become imbalanced, no thanks to Salarians. 

[Farangbaa]

Don't get me started on Krogan longevity...

 

It makes absolutely no sense for a species that is under constant threat of death for as long as they live to achieve a lifespan in the centuries. Their sole evolutionary focus should be on reproduction: i.e. large clutch size (which they have) and attaining maturity fast (I have no idea if this is true for the Krogan). Longevity is absolutely useless for a species that more often than not gets killed prematurely. (that is, before dying of senescense).

 

'Oh but Psychevore, what about the turtles?!'

 

Well, my son, they are only under constant threat of death when leaving their eggs and moving from the beach to the sea.. and possibly while they are younglings in the sea. If a turtle reaches maturity, it will keep living for a long time and most likely die of senescense. Their large clutch size is only because most of them don't make it to maturity. Those that do won't die anytime soon. It makes sense for Turtles to develop longevity because this increases their fitness (ability to pass on genes to the next generation) by being able to procuce more clutches in a lifetime. This is costly though, because resources need to be allocated to increasing the lifespan.. resources that can't be used on reproduction.

 

With the Krogan though, chances that a mature Krogan dies are always present. Both prior to being uplifted and after. Hell, even before they invented gunpowder this was the case. (death by predator... just imagine those predators o.O). There's no evolutionary pressure for them to develop longevity. It takes resources to increase one's lifespan, resources that in the Krogan's case are best used to produce offspring fast before they die, if they even reach the stage of being able to produce offspring to begin with.

 

If anything, given the environment on Tuchanka.. they should have the lifespan of the Vorcha, not the Asari.

[Excella Gionne]

Don't get me started on Krogan longevity...

 

It makes absolutely no sense for a species that is under constant threat of death for as long as they live to achieve a lifespan in the centuries. Their sole evolutionary focus should be on reproduction: i.e. large clutch size (which they have) and attaining maturity fast (I have no idea if this is true for the Krogan). Longevity is absolutely useless for a species that more often than not gets killed prematurely. (that is, before dying of senescense).

 

'Oh but Psychevore, what about the turtles?!'

 

Well, my son, they are only under constant threat of death of when just leaving their eggs and moving from the beach to the sea.. and possibly while they are younglings in the sea. If a turtle reaches maturity, it will keep living for a long time and most likely die of senescense. Their large clutch size is only because most of them don't make it to maturity. Those that do won't die anytime soon.

 

With the Krogan though, chances that a mature Krogan dies are always present. Both prior to being uplifted and after. Hell, even before they invented gunpowder this was the case. (death by predator... just imagine those predators o.O). There's no evolutionary pressure for them to develop longevity. 

 

If anything, given the environment on Tuchanka.. they should have the lifespan of the Vorcha, not the Asari.

Everything that eff'd up their planet was post-genophage. The only thing that actually did damage their planet pre-uplifting was the self-induced nuclear winter.... Humans are already screwing up Earth anyways....

[SporkFu]

Wrex and Bakara are determined to restore glory to their race and they choose to preserve the old ways of the ancient Krogan when they were still a proud race, but because of Nuclear advancements the krogans started to fight one another. This applies directly to Humans as well in the manner of nuclear war. 

 

The uplifting + the genophage only made things worse...that is why Bakara says that they become wandering killers and hiring themselves out as mercenaries which is basically what Wrex said as well back in ME1. Their species have become imbalanced, no thanks to Salarians. 

That's kinda what I was getting at. If Wrex and Bakara are in charge, they'll make the krogan a proud race again. This is Bakara's email to shep after the cure:

 

From: Urdnot Bakara

 

Commander.

 

I'm writing you from the Kelphic Valley on Tuchanka. I wish you were here to see this. I'm watching krogan pour in from across our entire planet, so many of them that I've lost count. They've all heard the news. We are finally free. The age of suffering is over. Never again will krogan be afraid to give birth. Never again will they fear the pain and heartache it might bring.

 

While I don't know what fate ultimately has in store for my people, I can promise you your decision to believe in us will not be in vain. We will fight the Reapers for more than glory. We will fight them because we know there is a future for us after victory. The rest of my life will be devoted to traveling Tuchanka and speaking aloud the words no krogan has heard for nearly 2,000 years: There is reason to hope. This, I owe to you, Commander. This, I will never forget.

 

This is why I think her influence on the krogan people will become almost religious in nature. She'll gain many converts to her way of thinking there in the Kelphic Valley, and she'll make sure the positive vibe isn't wasted. 

[Farangbaa]

Everything that eff'd up their planet was post-genophage. The only thing that actually did damage their planet pre-uplifting was the self-induced nuclear winter.... Humans are already screwing up Earth anyways....

 

Read the codex entries for the Krogan. Pre-gunpowder the leading case of death was 'eaten by predator'. Post-gunpowder this was replaced by 'death by gunshot'.

 

This means two things: predators on Tuchanka are F'ING SCARY (and were most likely killed by the Krogan after inventing gunpowder), and the Krogan life history has never known a period in which they were not under constant pressure of death, whether that pressure came from outside of the Krogan or from within.

 

Tuchanka was already a shitty place to live before the uplifting, it just got shittier afterwards.

[Excella Gionne]

 

That's kinda what I was getting at. If Wrex and Bakara are in charge, they'll make the krogan a proud race again. This is Bakara's email to shep after the cure:

 

From: Urdnot Bakara

 

Commander.

 

I'm writing you from the Kelphic Valley on Tuchanka. I wish you were here to see this. I'm watching krogan pour in from across our entire planet, so many of them that I've lost count. They've all heard the news. We are finally free. The age of suffering is over. Never again will krogan be afraid to give birth. Never again will they fear the pain and heartache it might bring.

 

While I don't know what fate ultimately has in store for my people, I can promise you your decision to believe in us will not be in vain. We will fight the Reapers for more than glory. We will fight them because we know there is a future for us after victory. The rest of my life will be devoted to traveling Tuchanka and speaking aloud the words no krogan has heard for nearly 2,000 years: There is reason to hope. This, I owe to you, Commander. This, I will never forget.

 

This is why I think her influence on the krogan people will become almost religious in nature. She'll gain many converts to her way of thinking there in the Kelphic Valley, and she'll make sure the positive vibe isn't wasted. 

 

"Yeah, but our women have so many of them...so sometimes I pretend to listen, and...well, let's just say krogan females have tempers too."

 

Wrex is technically sharing his power with Eve, and they are basically heroes. The more I talk about this...the more I start to agree that curing the Genophage will bring back the balance of Krogan life even if it can't be completely perfect....

[Excella Gionne]

Read the codex entries for the Krogan. Pre-gunpowder the leading case of death was 'eaten by predator'. Post-gunpowder this was replaced by 'death by gunshot'.

 

This means two things: predators on Tuchanka are F'ING SCARY (and were most likely killed by the Krogan after inventing gunpowder), and the Krogan life history has never known a period in which they were not under constant pressure of death, whether that pressure came from outside of the Krogan or from within.

 

Tuchanka was already a shitty place to live before the uplifting, it just got shittier afterwards.

Yes, Krogans have evolved to adapt to that. Which explains their head shape and where their eyes are. They have evolved as predators giving them 180 degrees view of vision.

[Farangbaa]

Yes, Krogans have evolved to adapt to that. Which explains their head shape and where their eyes are. They have evolved as predators giving them 180 degrees view of vision.

 

Yes, and adapting to that means fast maturity and large clutch size. Not a lifespan in the centuries. All those resources allocated to maintaining a lifespan in the centuries is wasted on all those Krogan dying before they even reach the age of 20 (or whatever their age of maturity is). 

 

There is simply no environment which allows for and a large clutchsize and longevity while under constant pressure of death from the moment you are born till the moment you die. 

[SporkFu]

"Yeah, but our women have so many of them...so sometimes I pretend to listen, and...well, let's just say krogan females have tempers too."

 

Wrex is technically sharing his power with Eve, and they are basically heroes. The more I talk about this...the more I start to agree that curing the Genophage will bring back the balance of Krogan life even if it can't be completely perfect....

If the genophage had been a naturally occurring plague, like a flu epidemic or a zombie apocalypse (heh), and it was something the krogan asked for help in curing, then I could understand a debate... but since it was forced on them by the council races -- can't hold the asari blameless in this either -- then it should be cured on that basis alone. As shep said, the krogan have suffered enough. 

[Excella Gionne]

If the genophage had been a naturally occurring plague, like a flu epidemic or a zombie apocalypse (heh), and it was something the krogan asked for help in curing, then I could understand a debate... but since it was forced on them by the council races -- can't hold the asari blameless in this either -- then it should be cured on that basis alone. As shep said, the krogan have suffered enough. 

Council uplifting is just unethical, therefore, I blame the council as a whole...let evolution take its course....And yes, the Krogans have suffered enough, and they have to live with that suffering longer than most races. You don't know their suffering until it is inflicted up on you as well.

[Excella Gionne]

Yes, and adapting to that means fast maturity and large clutch size. Not a lifespan in the centuries. All those resources allocated to maintaining a lifespan in the centuries is wasted on all those Krogan dying before they even reach the age of 20 (or whatever their age of maturity is). 

 

There is simply no environment which allows for and a large clutchsize and longevity while under constant pressure of death from the moment you are born till the moment you die. 

Krogans have redundant systems. Because of their biology and their regenerative abilities, that gives them long lifespans. The environment of Tuchanka has taught Krogans how to survive as well. And about the whole "clutch" thing, that is entirely debatable....

[SporkFu]

Council uplifting is just unethical, therefore, I blame the council as a whole...let evolution take its course....And yes, the Krogans have suffered enough, and they have to live with that suffering longer than most races. You don't know their suffering until it is inflicted up on you as well.

Well, uplifting is one thing. The council had a good -- or at least desperate -- reason for uplifting the krogan. But they could have done a better job of not letting it go so far as a rebellion after the rachni wars. 

[Farangbaa]

Krogans have redundant systems. Because of their biology and their regenerative abilities, that gives them long lifespans. The environment of Tuchanka has taught Krogans how to survive as well. And about the whole "clutch" thing, that is entirely debatable....

 

Yeah and that's where it gets truely ridiculous.

 

All those resources allocated to extra organs while most Krogan still die prematurely in spite of those extra organs... it just doesn't happen in evolution. 

[KaiserShep]

I wish there was some depiction of the rachni war, because it seems like the rachni would've been a really freaky menace to deal with at the height of their power. I wonder if the turians tried nuking the rachni before the salarians uplifted the krogan.

[Excella Gionne]

Well, uplifting is one thing. The council had a good -- or at least desperate -- reason for uplifting the krogan. But they could have done a better job of not letting it go so far as a rebellion after the rachni wars. 

I still have no clue if the Rachni were indoctrinated or not, because that was 2,000 years before 50,000 years passed, and the Harvest was not initiated yet. But back stabbing a race after they help you doesn't really show great hospitality. That would have been wisest thing to do to the Krogans if they did not want a Krogan Rebellion. They would have set the Krogans back on their planet, retrieve all of their advanced tech, and leave. Leaving the Krogans with no award....

[SporkFu]

I wish there was some depiction of the rachni war, because it seems like the rachni would've been a really freaky menace to deal with at the height of their power. I wonder if the turians tried nuking the rachni before the salarians uplifted the krogan.

I looked this up on the wiki:

"Attempts by the Citadel races to negotiate were futile, as it was impossible to make contact with the hive queens that guided the race from beneath the inhospitable surface of their homeworld. It was assumed that the rachni were irredeemably hostile and could only be stopped through warfare, but the rachni had the upper hand and overwhelmed defenses with their sheer numbers." 

 

From that description it almost makes me think no one could get close enough to their planet to even nuke it from orbit. 

[Excella Gionne]

Yeah and that's where it gets truely ridiculous.

 

All those resources allocated to extra organs while most Krogan still die prematurely in spite of those extra organs... it just doesn't happen in evolution. 

Well, you can still die from being premature or whatever natural causes that should be inflicted upon you. The 'Clutch" thing, I personally don't think they give birth like Monotremes or Ovoviparous, but Viviparous which is live births.....

[Excella Gionne]

I wish there was some depiction of the rachni war, because it seems like the rachni would've been a really freaky menace to deal with at the height of their power. I wonder if the turians tried nuking the rachni before the salarians uplifted the krogan.

It's a messy story...even I don't believe that uplifting the Krogan was like their last resort....

[SporkFu]

I still have no clue if the Rachni were indoctrinated or not, because that was 2,000 years before 50,000 years passed, and the Harvest was on initiated yet. But back stabbing a race after they help you doesn't really show great hospitality. That would have been wisest thing to do to the Krogans if they did not want a Krogan Rebellion. They would have set the Krogans back on their planet, retrieve all of their advanced tech, and leave. Leaving the Krogans with no award....

Javik tells you a little about the rachni after the mission on Utukku. I dunno it word-for-word, but he says the protheans bred them to be biological weapons, that they served their purpose and then had to be dealt with before they rebelled. The protheans thought they were extinct by the time the reapers showed up in that cycle. 

[KaiserShep]

I looked this up on the wiki:

"Attempts by the Citadel races to negotiate were futile, as it was impossible to make contact with the hive queens that guided the race from beneath the inhospitable surface of their homeworld. It was assumed that the rachni were irredeemably hostile and could only be stopped through warfare, but the rachni had the upper hand and overwhelmed defenses with their sheer numbers." 

 

From that description it almost makes me think no one could get close enough to their planet to even nuke it from orbit. 

 

It makes me wonder how advanced their technology was at the time. They presumably had already started developing mass effect technology, since they were using the relays. If only they had a weapon like the Klendagon cannon. It would've torn a hole right in the rachni homeworld, and they could've done it from far away.

 

Javik tells you a little about the rachni after the mission on Utukku. I dunno it word-for-word, but he says the protheans bred them to be biological weapons, that they served their purpose and then had to be dealt with before they rebelled. The protheans thought they were extinct by the time the reapers showed up in that cycle. 

 

Mass Effect 2 also throws a hint out there that the reapers, or something else, may have also influenced them as well. But then comes Leviathan, tossing that around again.

[Excella Gionne]

Javik tells you a little about the rachni after the mission on Utukku. I dunno it word-for-word, but he says the protheans bred them to be biological weapons, that they served their purpose and then had to be dealt with before they rebelled. The protheans thought they were extinct by the time the reapers showed up in that cycle. 

I've never taken him there. I've only recruited him pre-Menae ONCE! And I don't take him with me everywhere often.