94 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

You mean Anti-Christ? Well, the Blights are pretty much the closest thing Thedas has to an apocalypse.

 

Also, you have it trademarked? 

 

Well, lawyers are evil, so.. 

[Vortex13]

There can't be an alliance, because once darkspawn are on the scene, the supposed threat they'd have to work together to combat isn't as severe as the existence of the darkspawn itself. Hell, if there were Awakened in enough numbers to threaten demons, then the people that you should ally with are the demons against the darkspawn. 

 

There can't be an enemy of my enemy scenario, because the darkspawn are the threat. 

 

 

Are you saying this in regards to a scenario where were are dealing with a huge force of Awakened (500 - 1,000) or a small force (10 - 20), or even just a handful; like say the Messenger and two buddies? I would agree that hundreds of Awakened would not work, but I don't see why you would need to field such a large quantity; or even if you could find that many Awakened with an empathetic mindset (like the Messenger).

 

The Taint is still an issue, but with a smaller number of Darkspawn in general it would become more manageable to avoid poisoning everything around them. Look at Amaranthie; it had Darkspawn crawling all over it, and yet if you purge the infestation it is able to make a complete recovery. Obviously, you wouldn't want the Awakened allies sharing a camp with the Non-Darkspawn forces, but having a small force present for one or two campaigns is not going to irrevocably destroy the land. If the Awakened gathered in sufficient numbers, and if they did nothing to try and midagate the spreading of the Taint, and if they remained in one location for an extended period of time, then yes the land would be Blighted.

 

The Taint is like radiation, or the 'disquiet' from Promethean - The Created (a World of Darkness supplement), it is dangerous and will poison the land if left unchecked in one particular area, but its not like having 9 or 10 Awakened helping in a battle will suddenly doom everyone and everything in Thedas.

[In Exile]

Are you saying this in regards to a scenario where were are dealing with a huge force of Awakened (500 - 1,000) or a small force (10 - 20), or even just a handful; like say the Messenger and two buddies? I would agree that hundreds of Awakened would not work, but I don't see why you would need to field such a large quantity; or even if you could find that many Awakened with an empathetic mindset (like the Messenger).

 

The Taint is still an issue, but with a smaller number of Darkspawn in general it would become more manageable to avoid poisoning everything around them. Look at Amaranthie; it had Darkspawn crawling all over it, and yet if you purge the infestation it is able to make a complete recovery. Obviously, you wouldn't want the Awakened allies sharing a camp with the Non-Darkspawn forces, but having a small force present for one or two campaigns is not going to irrevocably destroy the land. If the Awakened gathered in sufficient numbers, and if they did nothing to try and midagate the spreading of the Taint, and if they remained in one location for an extended period of time, then yes the land would be Blighted.

 

The Taint is like radiation, or the 'disquiet' from Promethean - The Created (a World of Darkness supplement), it is dangerous and will poison the land if left unchecked in one particular area, but its not like having 9 or 10 Awakened helping in a battle will suddenly doom everyone and everything in Thedas.

 

I am saying that any non-zero number of Awakened darkspawn are a threat. 500-1000 Awakened would amount to an actual budding apocalypse, and would most definitely be worse that anything that could happen in DA:I. A "small force" would be incredibly dangerous but the Inquisitor could presumably eliminate them alone. 

 

The Awakened aren't just a threat because of the taint. They're a threat because they can think. The darkspawn are simply, and full on, impossible to defeat. Not only could they think, meaning the only real advantage against archdemon-less darkspawn disappears (mindless), but there is no magic bullet to use against them if they turn bad. 

 

Having 9 or 10 Awakened won't suddenly doom Thedas, but it will doom it long term, because their very existence is an incredible existential threat. 

[Vortex13]

I am saying that any non-zero number of Awakened darkspawn are a threat. 500-1000 Awakened would amount to an actual budding apocalypse, and would most definitely be worse that anything that could happen in DA:I. A "small force" would be incredibly dangerous but the Inquisitor could presumably eliminate them alone. 

 

The Awakened aren't just a threat because of the taint. They're a threat because they can think. The darkspawn are simply, and full on, impossible to defeat. Not only could they think, meaning the only real advantage against archdemon-less darkspawn disappears (mindless), but there is no magic bullet to use against them if they turn bad. 

 

Having 9 or 10 Awakened won't suddenly doom Thedas, but it will doom it long term, because their very existence is an incredible existential threat. 

 

A 'small force' of Awakened is borderline, but really no more dangerous then siding with the Werewolves in DA:O; this is of course based on my previous post that the Awakened in question are similar to the Messenger and that they are trying to minimize their risk of spreading the Taint. 

 

And you are right to say that a bad Darkspawn that can think is extremely dangerous, but I would have to disagree with a kill on sight approach to any Awakened offering help. I would much rather have an intelligent Darkspawn that is on our side helping to fight bad Darkspawn then having to deal with it on our own; the whole fighting fire with fire notion.

 

The Grey Wardens employed that tactic when they created the Joining Ritual, they knew that not using the enemy's strengths against them was't working, so they used Darkspawn abilities (in that case the Taint) to fight Darkspawn. I know that long term consequences would be unpredictable, and potentially disastrous, but hunting down and trying to kill Awakened that would potentially offer help (the Messenger), is only going to push any surviving Awakened further towards evil, and you would have killed off any potential help that you might have had. 

 

Corypheus and the surviving Awakened from DA:A are out there still, no matter what you do in your particular play through, you can't kill every last one of them; its just part of the narrative. I am saying that I want all the help I can get to combat those threats which we know exist, instead of rejecting help for what may exist.

[fhs33721]

I am saying that any non-zero number of Awakened darkspawn are a threat. 500-1000 Awakened would amount to an actual budding apocalypse, and would most definitely be worse that anything that could happen in DA:I. A "small force" would be incredibly dangerous but the Inquisitor could presumably eliminate them alone. 

 

 500 awakened darkspawn bing worse than the sky ripping open and infinite hordes of immortal, malovelent spirits (some of which are powerful enough to singlehandedly slaughter entire batallions of soldiers)  invading thedas? Seems kind of exaggerated.

 

I'm not saying they would be harmless but still I'll argue that you shouldn't underestimate the demons that much. The darkspawn might have been the main antagonists in DAO and DAA but if you look at the enire franchise they don't play that big of a role.

Demons on the other hand have featured in almost every installment. Even in DAO three of the main questlines have you deal with demon/Spirit antagonists. In DAA the Blackmarshes were less about the Darkspawn than about the story of the Baroness. DA2 is all about the dangers of magic and demons vs mage-freedom while Darkspawn had almsot zero relevance to the plot. Demons also appear in all of the books.

So right now to me it seems as if demons are supposed to be the main antagonists of the Dragon Age series. That may change in the future though.

[Mr.House]

The only cure for darkspawn is a sword or firebolt.

[leaguer of one]

but they will still need brood mothers to breed, as well as food.... problematic, very problematic.

They don't need food. The taint sustains them.

[In Exile]

A 'small force' of Awakened is borderline, but really no more dangerous then siding with the Werewolves in DA:O; this is of course based on my previous post that the Awakened in question are similar to the Messenger and that they are trying to minimize their risk of spreading the Taint. 

 

And you are right to say that a bad Darkspawn that can think is extremely dangerous, but I would have to disagree with a kill on sight approach to any Awakened offering help. I would much rather have an intelligent Darkspawn that is on our side helping to fight bad Darkspawn then having to deal with it on our own; the whole fighting fire with fire notion.

 

The Grey Wardens employed that tactic when they created the Joining Ritual, they knew that not using the enemy's strengths against them was't working, so they used Darkspawn abilities (in that case the Taint) to fight Darkspawn. I know that long term consequences would be unpredictable, and potentially disastrous, but hunting down and trying to kill Awakened that would potentially offer help (the Messenger), is only going to push any surviving Awakened further towards evil, and you would have killed off any potential help that you might have had. 

 

Corypheus and the surviving Awakened from DA:A are out there still, no matter what you do in your particular play through, you can't kill every last one of them; its just part of the narrative. I am saying that I want all the help I can get to combat those threats which we know exist, instead of rejecting help for what may exist.

 

It doesn't matter whether the darkspawn want to control the taint. Their very existence, and their knowledge of the means of making more of themselves, is the apocalyptic danger. Remember that a blight isn't an archdemon rising - it's the mass invasion of the surface by darkspawn made possible by the awakening of the archdemon and the control it exerts over the horde. The Mother in DA:A showed us that a single brood mother with a small, dedicated number of Awakened - we say maybe 10 on her side the entire game - could lead such an invasion of darkspawn that it would seem like the equivalent of another Blight in the area. 

 

The existence of the Awakened darkspawn means an eternal and never-ending blight. That's why they all have to die, without exception. 

 

There is no threat that can compare with their existence. There might be threats that are on the same level, namely, the complete and utter eradication of every living thing in Thedas, but that just means you have two apocalypse level threats on the scene when the Awakened darkspawn appear. 

 

You're also wrong about the GWs. The Joining doesn't allow them to use any abilities related to the taint. Avernus researched that on his own, thousands of years after the order was founded. The GWs, initially, provided (i) a means of surviving the taint and (ii) a means of killing the archdemon. The GWs weaponized the taint by sacrificing themselves. 

 

The Messenger - who is such a paragon of morality that it chooses to allow you to execute it on sight - at best causes as much death as it prevents, by infecting people with the taint merely through interacting with them, and poisoning the land with the Blight. Every single other Awakened we've seen is evil. Even if we assume that their natural state is to be identical to humans, then their very existence is a threat. There's nothing to push away, because coexistence is impossible. There's no help to get. 

[In Exile]

 500 awakened darkspawn bing worse than the sky ripping open and infinite hordes of immortal, malovelent spirits (some of which are powerful enough to singlehandedly slaughter entire batallions of soldiers)  invading thedas? Seems kind of exaggerated.

 

I'm not saying they would be harmless but still I'll argue that you shouldn't underestimate the demons that much. The darkspawn might have been the main antagonists in DAO and DAA but if you look at the enire franchise they don't play that big of a role.

 

Demons on the other hand have featured in almost every installment. Even in DAO three of the main questlines have you deal with demon/Spirit antagonists. In DAA the Blackmarshes were less about the Darkspawn than about the story of the Baroness. DA2 is all about the dangers of magic and demons vs mage-freedom while Darkspawn had almsot zero relevance to the plot. Demons also appear in all of the books.

 

So right now to me it seems as if demons are supposed to be the main antagonists of the Dragon Age series. That may change in the future though.

 

I'm not underestimating the demons. But even this apocalypse level demon invasion just at the same level as a Blight, except for the fact that the demons don't poison the land by existing. The only way this demon invasion would be like a blight is if the Fade tears are destroying every living thing around them, and even then they're still not at the same level as the blight if they're staying the same size instead of expanding. The only way this demon invasion could be on the same level as a Blight is if it would inevitably end in the world and in the death of every single dwarf, human, qunari and elf. 

 

But, I'm sure you'll argue, a small band of Awakened darkspawn isn't the same thing as a blight. Except that DA:A shows us the exact opposite: the Mother and her followers were just a small band of Awakened darkspawn. And all it took was that small band to almost eradicate Amaranthine. Remember, the Warden didn't beat the darkspawn in a conventional battle - you didn't even have enough troops to do that. You beat the invasion of darkspawn in the same way you beat the Blight: killing the entity that was controlling them, in the DAA case the Mother and in DA:O the archdemon. 

 

The existence of a single Awakened darkspawn, and their knowledge to create more of themselves, is as great a threat as any Fade tear. If they show up, they have to be exterminate wholesale. Any small group of them could trigger a Blight. They're all walking apocalypses. 

[leaguer of one]

I'm not underestimating the demons. But even this apocalypse level demon invasion just at the same level as a Blight, except for the fact that the demons don't poison the land by existing. The only way this demon invasion would be like a blight is if the Fade tears are destroying every living thing around them, and even then they're still not at the same level as the blight if they're staying the same size instead of expanding. The only way this demon invasion could be on the same level as a Blight is if it would inevitably end in the world and in the death of every single dwarf, human, qunari and elf. 

 

But, I'm sure you'll argue, a small band of Awakened darkspawn isn't the same thing as a blight. Except that DA:A shows us the exact opposite: the Mother and her followers were just a small band of Awakened darkspawn. And all it took was that small band to almost eradicate Amaranthine. Remember, the Warden didn't beat the darkspawn in a conventional battle - you didn't even have enough troops to do that. You beat the invasion of darkspawn in the same way you beat the Blight: killing the entity that was controlling them, in the DAA case the Mother and in DA:O the archdemon. 

 

The existence of a single Awakened darkspawn, and their knowledge to create more of themselves, is as great a threat as any Fade tear. If they show up, they have to be exterminate wholesale. Any small group of them could trigger a Blight. They're all walking apocalypses. 

What are you taking about? Fade tears effect the environment as well. Hell it can turn the trees into walking abominations that kill you for just being. Add this Tear is effecting most of the world at once. A blight , as horrible as it is, expansion is limited and can be held at bay for some time. You can't do that with demons raining from the sky. With the power of sloth demons and pride demons, entire cities are engendered to be wiped out quickly. And the group in Amarathine was not a small band. 

[In Exile]

What are you taking about? Fade tears effect the environment as well. Hell it can turn the trees into walking abominations that kill you for just being. Add this Tear is effecting most of the world at once. A blight , as horrible as it is, expansion is limited and can be held at bay for some time. You can't do that with demons raining from the sky. With the power of sloth demons and pride demons, entire cities are engendered to be wiped out quickly. And the group in Amarathine was not a small band. 

 

Like I said: if the Fade tear does affect the environment, it's only as bad as the blight. Sylvans are no more or less dangerous than legions of blight wolves or bereskarns. The darkspawn horde also eradicated cities as much as Pride demons would - what we see in DA:O is just the opening salvo in a blight that never took off. 

 

So like I said: what we see in DA:O might be as bad as an actual Blight. But every Awakened is a walking potential eternal blight. Letting one of them live is never worth it, especially if you already have a non-darkspawn related way (i.e., magical Inquisitor fade tear closing powers) available to you to end the threat right now.

 

The Awakened will either exist in numbers too small to really affect the tide, or in numbers large enough that they're already as big a threat as the tears themselves.  

[leaguer of one]

Like I said: if the Fade tear does affect the environment, it's only as bad as the blight. Sylvans are no more or less dangerous than legions of blight wolves or bereskarns. The darkspawn horde also eradicated cities as much as Pride demons would - what we see in DA:O is just the opening salvo in a blight that never took off. 

 

So like I said: what we see in DA:O might be as bad as an actual Blight. But every Awakened is a walking potential eternal blight. Letting one of them live is never worth it, especially if you already have a non-darkspawn related way (i.e., magical Inquisitor fade tear closing powers) available to you to end the threat right now.

 

The Awakened will either exist in numbers too small to really affect the tide, or in numbers large enough that they're already as big a threat as the tears themselves.  

Sylvans are harder to kill and any tree can become them. Though blight wolves and bereskarns are dangerous they are in much lower numbers then Sylvans. Sure, darkspawn can eradicate cites but only as a horde and that takes time. They can be slowed down. That's not the same case with demons. One powerful demon  can cause the down fall of a city.

Their is no way you can say a blight is equal the fade tear. The fade tear is worse.

 

As for the darkspawn living or not, It's better to have them in a state to be manipulated then a mindless horde. You can use then to end the blight and get ready to backstab them afterwards.

[In Exile]

Sylvans are harder to kill and any tree can become them. Though blight wolves and bereskarns are dangerous they are in much lower numbers then Sylvans. Sure, darkspawn can eradicate cites but only as a horde and that takes time. They can be slowed down. That's not the same case with demons. One powerful demon  can cause the down fall of a city.

Their is no way you can say a blight is equal the fade tear. The fade tear is worse.

 

As for the darkspawn living or not, It's better to have them in a state to be manipulated then a mindless horde. You can use then to end the blight and get ready to backstab them afterwards.

 

The darkspawn are much more dangerous when they can think, because they can use real tactics and have a significant strategic advantage in numbers, morale, and resources. When mindless, non-darkspawn at least have the advantage of tactics. With Awakened darkspawn, that goes away.

 

There's no evidence a powerful demon, alone, can cause any sort of damage on that scale. We just have no idea what the lore relationship is, because of gameplay/story segregation.  

[leaguer of one]

The darkspawn are much more dangerous when they can think, because they can use real tactics and have a significant strategic advantage in numbers, morale, and resources. When mindless, non-darkspawn at least have the advantage of tactics. With Awakened darkspawn, that goes away.

 

There's no evidence a powerful demon, alone, can cause any sort of damage on that scale. We just have no idea what the lore relationship is, because of gameplay/story segregation.  

And Demons already are intelligent and can use tactics as well. I'm not saying an intelligent darkspawn can't use tactics. Equally an intelligent darkspawn can be manipulated.

 

And yes their is evidence, the one in asuder and the one Merril was dealing with.Added the sloth demon in the circle tower.

[Vortex13]

Like I said: if the Fade tear does affect the environment, it's only as bad as the blight. Sylvans are no more or less dangerous than legions of blight wolves or bereskarns. The darkspawn horde also eradicated cities as much as Pride demons would - what we see in DA:O is just the opening salvo in a blight that never took off. 

 

So like I said: what we see in DA:O might be as bad as an actual Blight. But every Awakened is a walking potential eternal blight. Letting one of them live is never worth it, especially if you already have a non-darkspawn related way (i.e., magical Inquisitor fade tear closing powers) available to you to end the threat right now.

 

The Awakened will either exist in numbers too small to really affect the tide, or in numbers large enough that they're already as big a threat as the tears themselves.  

 

 

I would have to disagree about the numbers too small part. Three of the biggest assets that the Darkspawn have against Fade entities is:

 

• They have no souls, so Spirt Magic has no effect on them (at least according to the lore), therefore eliminating a good portion of the powers demons would be able to use in combat against them.

 

• The Taint is (IMO) a much better version of Blood Magic, as it doesn't require Blood, pain or suffering to fuel its powers, and since Darkspawn have no souls there is no possibility to become abominations. Being able to bypass the limitations of Lyrium without drawing on blood and death (thereby weakening the Veil further) Darkspawn would have a serious advantage compared to standard mages.

 

• Darkspawn don't have to eat, drink or sleep, so while regular human/elf/quanari mages will have to stop their spells and incantations rest and recharge, a Darkspawn can maintain their powers countering the Spirits and Demons that don't need to eat, drink or sleep either.

 

Even if we only had two or three Awakened helping, they would be worth more (combating demons) then an entire delegation of mages, without the risk of demonic possession. 

 

 

In regards to the discussion about the Fade affecting the physical world, I would say that both it and the Taint are equally threatening, but in different ways. The Taint is localized to the Darkspawn, but the Veil can be thinned or broken anywhere there is strong (negative) emotion or death. Also the Fade does affect the landscape where it seeps through the Veil; Blackwater Marsh, the Undead Bogs shown in DA:I concept art are the results of the land being warped by the Fade.

 

Also consider the common tactic that more powerful demons use when they breach the Veil; they will attempt of widen the breach and bring more demons across, thereby further weakening the Veil, and then letting even more demons come through. And speaking of the supernatural creatures, a good portion of them are the result of demonic/spirit activity. Undead are demon possessed corpses, Sylvans are demon possessed trees, were-creatures are demon possessed animals, abominations are demon possessed people, etc.  

 

Essentially, the Taint is only an issue when you are in close proximity to Darkspawn for prolonged periods of time, while the Fade and the demons that inhabit it are an issue that affects all of Thedas.

[Solas]

hinata how much are the darkspawn paying you

[fhs33721]

I'm not underestimating the demons. But even this apocalypse level demon invasion just at the same level as a Blight, except for the fact that the demons don't poison the land by existing. The only way this demon invasion would be like a blight is if the Fade tears are destroying every living thing around them, and even then they're still not at the same level as the blight if they're staying the same size instead of expanding. The only way this demon invasion could be on the same level as a Blight is if it would inevitably end in the world and in the death of every single dwarf, human, qunari and elf. 

 

But, I'm sure you'll argue, a small band of Awakened darkspawn isn't the same thing as a blight. Except that DA:A shows us the exact opposite: the Mother and her followers were just a small band of Awakened darkspawn. And all it took was that small band to almost eradicate Amaranthine. Remember, the Warden didn't beat the darkspawn in a conventional battle - you didn't even have enough troops to do that. You beat the invasion of darkspawn in the same way you beat the Blight: killing the entity that was controlling them, in the DAA case the Mother and in DA:O the archdemon. 

 

The existence of a single Awakened darkspawn, and their knowledge to create more of themselves, is as great a threat as any Fade tear. If they show up, they have to be exterminate wholesale. Any small group of them could trigger a Blight. They're all walking apocalypses. 

As others have said, the demons themselves may not poison the land, but places with a thin veil are generally uninhabitable by anyone because there will be Syvains, giant spiders, walking corpses, shades and all sort of weird things that make it impossible for anyone to live there. Examples: Blackmarshes, the Brecilian forest and Wardens keep.

 

The Mother and her followers weren't even close to a blight. They only threatened one region of some backwater country (I like Ferelden but in the greater politics it is quite unimportant) that is just recovering from a blight and a civil war. That isn't much of an acomplishment.

Furthermore you do beat them conventionally. You defeat their forces either in the Vigil or in Amaranthine. If you defend Amaranthine and have upgraded your keep fully the epilogue states that the Darkspawn was completly unable to breach the defences. Just afer you beat one of their armies you kill the mother.

 

Do normal awakened eve know how to awake others? It seemed to me that only the Architect knew how to do it. Also the same could be argued for demons. Once one posesses a mage he can summon more of his kind into unwilling victims to create more abominations.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hinata how much are the darkspawn paying you

Are you referring to my posts in general or a specific one?

[Captain_Harkness]

My overall plan: Kill the Darkspawn

1.Kill any awakened that remain so the darkspawn cannot organize

2. KILL. EVERY. SINGLE. DARKSPAWN.

 

By thier very existence they are a disease and a threat to all life. I don't care if some can become friendly or make a peaceful commune. A single darkspawn can create a broodmother and that means in time a single darkspawn can become a horde. Therefore not a single darkspawn can be left alive. I would preserve the wardens in small numbers until we are postive that the darkspawn are dead and the taint is gone so that no one can ever be made a broodmother again.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My overall plan: Kill the Darkspawn

1.Kill any awakened that remain so the darkspawn cannot organize

2. KILL. EVERY. SINGLE. DARKSPAWN.

 

By thier very existence they are a disease and a threat to all life. I don't care if some can become friendly or make a peaceful commune. A single darkspawn can create a broodmother and that means in time a single darkspawn can become a horde. Therefore not a single darkspawn can be left alive. I would preserve the wardens in small numbers until we are postive that the darkspawn are dead and the taint is gone so that no one can ever be made a broodmother again.

And you know this how? We don't know how many Darkspawn are needed for the Broodmother ritual.