273 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Panda]

Hello again,

 

Throughout the course of the multiplayer, many guns have been buffed (like the arc pistol), nerfed (like the krysae), or left to shill in their own mediocrity (like the avenger).

 

First, let us consider what is overpowered.

 

Is something overpowered if it can be used to achieve great, perhaps insurmountable, feats when controlled by a skilled player (like the venom)?

Is something overpowered if it has a low skill requirement to use effectively (i.e. easy to use like the venom)?

Is something overpowered if it functions as a crutch to compensate for a player's lack of skill? (i.e. allowing them to perform at a higher level than otherwise possible like the venom).

 

To properly understand overpoweredness and trace its origins, we must consider the state that all overpowered weapons function in. That is, killing all the things or being so effective that they are a good answer to everything.

 

Second, let us focus on balance.

 

Since phantom DR is a feature and not a bug just like reload canceling, we must assume that since certain weapons are effective against them and not others, that some weapons do better against some enemies than others. Therefore, it stands to reason that not every gun should be effective in every situation.

 

If a weapon in the game is so overpowered, as has been said; if it absolutely dominates and guareentees an experience of victory, also known as the acquisition of even more credits and score, why would one use anything else?

 

When discussing how strong something is, you have to compare it to peers. Some weapons/classes/items will be stronger than others, some will be better suited for specific purposes. But if you have something that outperforms all its counterparts across the board--to the extent that you will always be better off taking that--then it's overpowered.

 

In the next part of the discussion, a comparison of the Harrier to other weapons should be made. In this, the term weapon refers solely to assault rifles as the post would be a great deal longer if it elaborated on any of the other weapon classes.

 

Of course, it is necessary to consider the nature of other weapons in the game. Compared against common weapons, the Harrier is far more effective and rightly so. It is randomly more difficult to upgrade than any common weapon, which in this case is solely just the M-8 avenger, a weapon deadly on full auto only against swarmers that probably wrote the damn weapon description.

 

It is also necessary to consider the nature of other weapons in the game. Compared against uncommon weapons, the Harrier is far more effective and rightly so. It is randomly more difficult to upgrade than any uncommon weapon.

 

Against the vindicator, we can see right off the bat that the Harrier is a better gun in stability, damage, accuracy, and is fairly even in ammo supply. The phaeston itself isn't so trashy, but it pales compared to an ultra-rare weapon as well. The mattock comes close, but is ultimately relegated to being the poor man's version of the Harrier.

 

Next, we turn our eyes to the center ring! In one conrner, we have the Harrier, glorious leader of overpowered rifles. Praise be. In the other corner, we have an entire entourage. I give you, the rare assault rifles! Woohoo!

 

First, we have the Geth Pulse Rifle. What a piece of crap that needs to be used on a Geth that gets headshots to be a decent damage dealer. Sure, it's light, and sure, its shots look neat. Not my fault it looks terrible, though considering Geth aren't fashionable, it'll get a pass. Second, we have the adas, which to some sounds like a robot masturbating. However, it's a very good gun for ammo applications, with quite a bit of popularity on consoles with the N7 Destroyer. Third, we have the falcon, lawnmower and death incarnate turned stagger stick and ammo applier. It's also popular on consoles with the N7 Destroyer. Fourth, is the striker, the thing that you want to find a use for other than staggering enemies to death on the TGI from cloak while feeling good they can't shooot back unless they're Geth in which case you're already lying on the ground bleeding out after getting staggered, and shot several times in the time frame of  milliseconds.

 

Let's talk about the more respectable assault rifles now. FIrst, we have the Argus, which honestly isn't too bad asides from the need for some stability. The refire keeps it from being top tier, which is unfortunate to say the least. Still, an okay gun. Nothing nearly as good as the Harrier, praise be, but enough to try to kill an enemy with. Next is the collector rifle. It's really not a bad gun. It's accurate, can get good clip size, is fast, and isn't heavy, but its damage is not good enough to keep the space crabs away. Finally, there's the revenant, a good gun, that is if it could hit at range. Other than that, it's okay and quite workable as a gun, capable of shredding all the things with ease. If I had only one gun, it'd be the revenant. Though Harrier is still better in terms of how dead you make the enemy in a given amount of time.

 

That brings us to the realm of ultra-rare assault rifles.First, we have the spitfire. Who cares about the spitfire? The typhoon is a great gun that allows for great damage, but you must be exposed for the ramp-up. Next, we have the Valkyrie, which while a decent gun that is unique with 2 shot bursts, is not a gun that is as simple and user friendly as the Harrier, which kills everything. Next is the Saber, which, while great, is not as easy to use as the Harrier. You actually have to aim. instead of spraying and letting your shots eventually reach center of head anyway with the constant firing. Next is the Lancer, which is a pretty good niche with an infinite ammo weapon that looks good and is great for power dependent classes. The PPR fills part of this niche, but is more weapon master focused. All of these have a niche, a certain thing they excel in. The harrier does not. The harrier does all of things: accuracy, laying down deadly gunfire, stability out of cover, and is easy to use on top of that.

 

The Harrier doesn't play by the book like the other guns. It takes all of the books, pees on them to show dominance, and sets the fragile balance of the game on fire. Irrefutably, the Harrier is overpowered.

[Deerber]

[TheNightSlasher]

Tell that to reegar.

[megabeast37215]

OP never makes mention that the Harrier has crap for spare ammo.. it's main balancing factor. This is why it is just 'good' when pugs use it.. because they can't make their shots count, don't know how to round the map making ammo pit stops, refuse to use thermal clips bc they need gels and rockets from their PSPs since they refuse to buy jumbos, and their aim sucks.

In the hands of a good player.. yes it dominates.. so does everything else.

The PPR is still better though.. seriously.

[DexSD]

Tell that to reegar.

reegar has no range and will suck on large maps

[DexSD]

OP never makes mention that the Harrier has crap for spare ammo.. it's main balancing factor. This is why it is just 'good' when pugs use it.. because they can't make their shots count, don't know how to round the map making ammo pit stops, refuse to use thermal clips bc they need gels and rockets from their PSPs since they refuse to buy jumbos, and their aim sucks.

In the hands of a good player.. yes it dominates.. so does everything else.

The PPR is still better though.. seriously.

LoL PPR isn't better than the harrier, that stupid windup is crappy against stunlock enemies. Also that waiting to recharge, instead of a quick reload like the harrier can do, has better chance of doing a lot of damage in a smaller amount of time

[Argent Xero]

I agree, that's why I only use it on my fitness-less Demolisher along with the Venom.

Also, I didn't read the thread. Ain't nobody got time fo dat. I wonder how long it took to come up with the topic, nice effort.

[Zjarcal]

That is one big ass post.

[MGW7]

The harrier is a niche gun in all respects, it just has a large niche that allows it to do one of the more important jobs extremely well when used as such,

 

It kills a group of enemies fast, that's it's one thing it does well, it just happens that the most common job in this game is killing a group of enemies fast, it doesn't keep on pressure, it isn't a stagger stick, it's not a super ammo applicator, it doesn't serve as a long term back up, it doesn't grind away bosses, it kills a group of enemies fast.

 

Is it op, no. It has it's problems, it just does an important job well and it's problems can be compensated for with proper usage.

[Pheabus2009]

I think it's okay, not OP, maybe that's because I hardly use it when not Platinum, cuz ammo is scarce on Plat.

[Red Panda]

The harrier is a niche gun in all respects, it just has a large niche that allows it to do one of the more important jobs extremely well when used as such,

 

It kills a group of enemies fast, that's it's one thing it does well, it just happens that the most common job in this game is killing a group of enemies fast, it doesn't keep on pressure, it isn't a stagger stick, it's not a super ammo applicator, it doesn't serve as a long term back up, it doesn't grind away bosses, it kills a group of enemies fast.

 

Is it op, no. It has it's problems, it just does an important job well and it's problems can be compensated for with proper usage.

 

OP never makes mention that the Harrier has crap for spare ammo.. it's main balancing factor. This is why it is just 'good' when pugs use it.. because they can't make their shots count, don't know how to round the map making ammo pit stops, refuse to use thermal clips bc they need gels and rockets from their PSPs since they refuse to buy jumbos, and their aim sucks.

In the hands of a good player.. yes it dominates.. so does everything else.

The PPR is still better though.. seriously.

 

I would say that since one can keep grenades stocked on plat then the harrier can be kept stocked too.

 

It eats through any enemy with alarming rate, unequaled by any other, as it's almost risk free since there are no drawbacks other than going to an ammo box or clipping it.

[DexSD]

I would say that since one can keep grenades stocked on plat then the harrier can be kept stocked too.

 

It eats through any enemy with alarming rate, unequaled by any other, as it's almost risk free since there are no drawbacks other than going to an ammo box or clipping it.

yup

 

it's obviously the best weapon in the game hands down

[chcknwng]

reegar has no range and will suck on large maps

That's because you are a console peasant and will never witness Reegar at its full glory.

[q5tyhj]

The PPR is still better though.. seriously.

[megabeast37215]

I would say that since one can keep grenades stocked on plat then the harrier can be kept stocked too.
 
It eats through any enemy with alarming rate, unequaled by any other, as it's almost risk free since there are no drawbacks other than going to an ammo box or clipping it.

Yeah but the point I'm trying to make is that crappy players can't do that effectively.. especially on Plat bc of the ammo boxes. I also said that pugs won't use thermals. Did you even read the post?

It doesn't exactly eat through plat bosses either before a trip to the ammo box on non-infiltrators/damage boosting classes.. more like 1-2 bosses. You're grossly overexaggerating.

[Computron2000]

Harrier's ease of use, good damage and relatively good CD at X makes it a good weapon but not the best in any category. Its a jack of all trades, master of none. Its great for U/U though precisely because its generalised nature

[Deerber]

Its a jack of all trades, master of none.

 

Well, I'd say it's a jack of all trades, master of quite a bit.

 

Still, I agree.

[capn233]

I disagree.  I wouldn't even rank it in the top 5.  So unless you have some sort of special name for those weapons.

 

Comparisons with the rest of the AR class aren't going to be all that useful, IMO.  The AR class as a whole started out pretty poor damage to weight wise.

 

The thing with the Harrier is that while people say it is good on every class, there are a variety of weapons that are essentially excellent on every class.  As an aside, I don't even find the Harrier all that enjoyable except on maybe a handful of classes, but that is a different discussion.

 

Basically if I was going to bother to do some list of overpowered weapons, I would look at the damage (mainly TTK since that allows one-shot weapons to be judged fairly vs automatics with higher stat DPS), encumbrance, what niche it is supposed to occupy and how well it does across a variety of classes.

 

If you look at something like the Reegar, the issues should become obvious within that framework.  It is nominally a close range shield stripper, but base damage is too high and so with a bit of piercing it has top shelf armor DPS.  And since this game is biased to close range, it works on practically any class and can replace their powers through brute force.  The only classes it does not work well on is ones with big ROF bonuses since that can screw with the actual damage output.  You would think that since it is the highest damage weapon in the game it would be heavy, but in fact it weighs only 1.25 at X which is fairly light.  If your thinking its power is an artifact of the incendiary ammo glitch, you would be mistaken.  Caratinoid made a fix for incendiary ammo stacking and even with it patched the Reegar is still absurd (it is just that IA falls more in line with WA and AP ammo on it).

 

For absurd one or two shot potential v humanoid targets on high difficulty across classes, you have to think of the Arc Pistol.  When a passiveless Adept can oneshot the vast majority of humanoid targets on Gold, there is probably something wrong, at least if the weapon is only going to weigh 0.6.  So you can have top tier weapon damage and spam powers all day.

 

Next up, consider the Acolyte.  It is also nominally an anti-shield sidearm.  But for some unknown reason it can stagger humanoid targets, and it applies ammo well due to the low rate of fire.  It might as well be weightless at X.  It completely alters the metagame for a variety of "casters."  Only a handful of weapons can compete with it in shield damage.  The nearest competitor would be the Talon, but it is three times as heavy, doesn't really stagger, and will only do competing shield damage if scoring a headshot on a humanoid target.

 

Speaking of the Talon, it is one of the better guns in the game precisely because of its shield multiplier.  Which allows it nice TTK's vs humanoid targets, even protected ones, if you can get close enough (Vanguard), or have some accuracy bonuses.  It isn't nearly as overpowered as the above, but in damage to weight it is top tier.

 

You can throw the Venom onto a list like this because it does too many things well at the same time.  It has good damage, creates CC out of thin air, and can prime multiple targets with ammo.  Again, what it does is essentially alters the metagame.  The closest competitor is probably the Falcon or Scorpion, but both of those are trickier to use and neither does competing damage.  The weight of the Venom isn't particularly high either at 1.4.

 

Wraith, like Arc Pistol, was probably the recipient of a bit too many buffs, although not quite to the extreme.  It has enough damage to one shot a variety of targets, and has an encumbrance of a whole 0.7.  It does in fact work well on basically every single character in the game.

 

Harrier has good stat DPS, and has good practical accuracy (at least out of cover), but the ammo is somewhat limited.  Sure, you can use it on anything, but you have to get headshots to make it ammo efficient, and it is really better if you have some innate weapon damage bonuses to further boost the ammo efficiency.  Typically it won't be a better choice than any of the above on any power class, IMO.  It will work, but that is true for a lot of weapons.  Limiting to other AR's, Saber is probably better for most biotic or tech characters, the PPR is better on a few of them, and the Lancer is largely better for them on Platinum.

[Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3]

Slap that baby on a Quarian or Turian soldier paired with Marksman and it's magic.

[Pint]

Slap that baby on a Quarian or Turian soldier paired with Marksman and it's magic.

 

my ammo is magically disappearing, it's like it's expending itself on it's own.

[capn233]

I can't stand the Harrier w/ Marksman or Devastator Mode.  Don't care for it under Hunter Mode all that much either.

[Baby Quarian]

I don't use it. 

[valsharess24]

Hodor

[megabeast37215]

I can't stand the Harrier w/ Marksman or Devastator Mode.  Don't care for it under Hunter Mode all that much either.

It's a badass sidearm on the Marksman classes when going with a light weapon.. could never be a primary though.

I adore the Harrier on the GI.. but not the other Geth kits.

[cronshaw]

the OP reads like an 8th grade composition paper.

I'm not an 8th grade comp teacher so I didn't finish reading it.