116 réponses à ce sujet

[DisturbedJim83]

If that was true, then what would be the point of making the Warden's race determinant in Origins, rather than being a set character like say, Shepard or Hawke? Or having the ability to make decisions (especially in Origins, not so much in DA2) that affect the state of the game-world? Or taking the type to create a Keep to allow us to build the type of world based on the decisions we wish to import over?

 

Regardless of our "fanon", Bioware has repeatedly told us that our choices do matter and ignoring the previous games to force us to use a cookie-cutter Warden/Hawke would be a colossal disaster all around. Bioware's own canon from the comics and novels is just their take on their universe, which is no less valid than ours.

 

The casual retcon of some minor events/deaths to serve the overall story, like Leliana and (possibly) Anders in DA2 are fine, but major events like Alistair becoming King, which is true in the novels and comics, won't be in DAI unless you put him there or use a default, pre-built history where that happened.

 

Because it's their Intellectual property meaning that they can if they so choose to bring back a Character if they decide its integral to their story even if it violates your cannon because since as it's their IP they are not beholden to the fans demands.

 

Leliana was a case in point I remember well when DA2 came out there was many "how dare you bring back Leilana BW its violates my story because she died in my cannon"threads.

Yes we are given choices to determine things such as whether The Warden was Human,Elf,Dwarf etc however for example if Bioware were to decide for the purpose of the story that The Warden was a Male Human Noble then any Warden I created that did not match that ie Female Dhalish Elf is not "Cannon" it is fannon/Fanfic, BW is under no obligation to provide options in DAI that reflect my choices in DAO.

 

And most of the against argument is "BW should not bring back Warden/Hawke because its conflicts with "my headcannon" thereby implying that their headcannon should take precedence when that can never be so, the most we are and i hate to use the word "entitled" to is the option to have our previous choices reflected to some extent in game, however it is not mandatory that BW provide that.

 

We should be grateful for the choices we do get rather than readily complaining/demanding or delude ourselves into thinking that it's our right to tell BW how to write their story because in the end we don't "own"  DragonAge BW do we are merely readers nothing more.

[Solas]

That's exactly why I don't want the Warden or Hawke's story to be continued. They may be BioWare's protagonists, but they were given to us to shape and mold as we see fit. I'd rather the vanished storylines.

 

(Or who knows, maybe they were killed in the Fade Tear blast). That would certainly wrap things up.

Lol imagine the uproar if the start of the game is the future inquisitor walking around a peace conference and talking to people and hearing ambient dialogues and exposition a la Ostagar, hearing things like "they say the hero of ferelden is camped on the other side of that hill", "I heard the champion of Kirkwall is in attendance, ser!" only for the fade explosion to go boom and they're dead just like that, never seen, never heard from, just dead

[AresKeith]

That's exactly why I don't want the Warden or Hawke's story to be continued. They may be BioWare's protagonists, but they were given to us to shape and mold as we see fit. I'd rather the vanished storylines.

 

(Or who knows, maybe they were killed in the Fade Tear blast). That would certainly wrap things up.

 

Keep in mind that Revan and the Exile were Star Wars/LucasArts characters more than Bioware & Obsidian, and they always design a canon for their product

 

So the Warden and/or Hawke could turn out different from that but will probably follow a certain path

[Sifr]

 

 

Because it's their Intellectual property meaning that they can if they so choose to bring back a Character if they decide its integral to their story even if it violates your cannon because since as it's their IP they are not beholden to the fans demands.

Leliana was a case in point I remember well when DA2 came out there was many "how dare you bring back Leilana BW its violates my story because she died in my cannon"threads.

Yes we are given choices to determine things such as whether The Warden was Human,Elf,Dwarf etc however for example if Bioware were to decide for the purpose of the story that The Warden was a Male Human Noble then any Warden I created that did not match that ie Female Dhalish Elf is not "Cannon" it is fannon/Fanfic, BW is under no obligation to provide options in DAI that reflect my choices in DAO.

 

And most of the against argument is "BW should not bring back Warden/Hawke because its conflicts with "my headcannon" thereby implying that their headcannon should take precedence when that can never be so, the most we are and i hate to use the word "entitled" to is the option to have our previous choices reflected to some extent in game, however it is not mandatory that BW provide that.

 

We should be grateful for the choices we do get rather than readily complaining/demanding or delude ourselves into thinking that it's our right to tell BW how to write their story because in the end we don't "own"  DragonAge BW do we are merely readers nothing more.

 

No-one is saying that they are being forced to write the story in the way that the fans want, nor believing that their own fanon is more important than Bioware's own canonical take on their universe. Bioware's willingness to take the time to craft extra content for the fans and provide us with the chance to experience the result of our decisions is a wonderful gesture on their part and something that no other company that I know bothers to do.

 

We're not saying that we want "our" characters to not come back. What we're saying that we'd rather not have the characters we previously played as and have come to know and love, be shoe-horned in when they aren't needed, as it's a disservice to them and the story.

 

Having my Warden or Hawke, your Warden or Hawke and even Bioware's "canon" Warden and Hawke simply show up to pat the Inquisitor on the back for doing a good job, be killed or do something meaningless like drop off their laundry, would be a waste of that character, regardless of "who" that character belongs to.

[DisturbedJim83]

No-one is saying that they are being forced to write the story in the way that the fans want, nor believing that their own fanon is more important than Bioware's own canonical take on their universe. Bioware's willingness to take the time to craft extra content for the fans and provide us with the chance to experience the result of our decisions is a wonderful gesture on their part and something that no other company that I know bothers to do.

 

We're not saying that we want "our" characters to not come back. What we're saying that we'd rather not have the characters we previously played as and have come to know and love, be shoe-horned in when they aren't needed, as it's a disservice to them and the story.

 

Having my Warden or Hawke, your Warden or Hawke and even Bioware's "canon" Warden and Hawke simply show up to pat the Inquisitor on the back for doing a good job, be killed or do something meaningless like drop off their laundry, would be a waste of that character, regardless of "who" that character belongs to.

 

My point is that "what we'd like" or whether we consider a particular use of a previous protagonist a waste is not relevant as its not our call to make it's Bioware's so its pointless saying I'd rather The Warden not return because "My Warden" is dead/went through the mirror with Morrigan/left the Grey Wardens/is raising the OGB etc. Whatever choices we make in our playthroughs are not cannon and therefore irrelevant as a reason why The Warden/Hawke should not return.appear.

 

Valid reason ares fine, however every reason I have seen is based mostly on "it does not fit with/violates my Headcannon because my Hawke/Warden......." these are not valid reasons for either Hawke/Warden to not make an appearance A Valid reason would be if say a appearance contradicted pre established BW Cannon ie Hawke making a appearance in Orlais on the same date DA2 established Hawke was at Chateau Haine as he/she can not be in 2 places at once unless he/she somehow managed to duplicate Flemeth's trick or segregating her soul as per the DA2 intro.

 

I'm not saying don't object I'm saying if your going to object use a valid reason not one based on some sense of "ownership" over Hawke/Warden.

[ADeadDiehard]

I think an easy way to avoid disappointing 'Headcanoneers' would be to give the PC option to not enter the same room as them, or if there's a quest that's something along the lines of 'Seek out The Warden/Champion', you could just say "Nah, I'll let an agent handle this one."

[SnakeCode]

I think if they are in the game at all then it will be early on. At the peace treaty thing perhaps, where they both promptly get offed by the huge explosion/fade tear just as the Warden is about to make his/her speech (thus they are able to keep the Warden silent.  ) 

[ADeadDiehard]

I think if they are in the game at all then it will be early on. At the peace treaty thing perhaps, where they both promptly get offed by the huge explosion/fade tear just as the Warden is about to make his/her speech (thus they are able to keep the Warden silent.  ) 

I don't have the Sten "No." pic handy sooo...
**** that noise.

[Sifr]

My point is that "what we'd like" or whether we consider a particular use of a previous protagonist a waste is not relevant as its not our call to make it's Bioware's so its pointless saying I'd rather The Warden not return because "My Warden" is dead/went through the mirror with Morrigan/left the Grey Wardens/is raising the OGB etc. Whatever choices we make in our playthroughs are not cannon and therefore irrelevant as a reason why The Warden/Hawke should not return.appear.

 

Valid reason ares fine, however every reason I have seen is based mostly on "it does not fit with/violates my Headcannon because my Hawke/Warden......." these are not valid reasons for either Hawke/Warden to not make an appearance A Valid reason would be if say a appearance contradicted pre established BW Cannon ie Hawke making a appearance in Orlais on the same date DA2 established Hawke was at Chateau Haine as he/she can not be in 2 places at once unless he/she somehow managed to duplicate Flemeth's trick or segregating her soul as per the DA2 intro.

 

I'm not saying don't object I'm saying if your going to object use a valid reason not one based on some sense of "ownership" over Hawke/Warden.

 

But no-one is claiming ownership of the character of the Warden and Hawke, just that we have an attachment to the characters of the Warden and Hawke that we played and guided through the story, defining their personality and history as we went through the game.

 

If Bioware wanted to include a default Warden and Hawke in Inquisition, with their own personality and background, that would be fine. We can make the disconnect and enjoy the game on it's own merits. I played DA2 for the first couple times without importing any saves over from Origins and I enjoyed the default history options available for their own merits.

 

But we're talking about trying to replicate the person that you played in the previous game, only this time outside of your control. Most people don't want to see them return as Bioware could not do those characters justice, as hard as they tried. It'd be impossible to pull off. Revan proved that much in SWTOR, as well as the disaster that befell the creators of Prototype when they utterly screwed the character of Alex Mercer in the second game, making him act wildly out of character.

 

Not wanting to see the characters return because you don't want to see them acting wildly out of character is a perfectly valid reason, it has nothing to do with people believing that they own anything?

 

This even applies to companions. Take Anders and Zevran in DA2 and the masses of people who didn't like how Anders was different than in Awakening, as well as the bug that had Zevran fail to recognise if he was still in a relationship with the Warden, leading him to "cheat" on them with Isabela and/or Hawke?

 

Bioware having their own canon is not being disputed, but if they didn't want the fans to have their own, they'd have created a game with no choice, a set personality, backstory and we'd be railroaded through every single decision.

 

It's a roleplaying game, are you seriously saying that we're no longer allowed to roleplay?

 

[Shelondias]

While it would definitely be cool to see your Warden and Hawke make a cameo, i'm afraid that the risk of their appearances not showing correctly is too big, what with all the mods people have been using over the years. 

It isn't bioware's job to keep track and take into account mods people used.
If someone's heavily modded heterochromic, scarred, yellow haired elf hawke doesn't look like she did then that's the user's problem.

[DisturbedJim83]

But no-one is claiming ownership of the character of the Warden and Hawke, just that we have an attachment to the characters of the Warden and Hawke that we played and guided through the story, defining their personality and history as we went through the game.

 

If Bioware wanted to include a default Warden and Hawke in Inquisition, with their own personality and background, that would be fine. We can make the disconnect and enjoy the game on it's own merits. I played DA2 for the first couple times without importing any saves over from Origins and I enjoyed the default history options available for their own merits.

 

But we're talking about trying to replicate the person that you played in the previous game, only this time outside of your control. Most people don't want to see them return as Bioware could not do those characters justice, as hard as they tried. It'd be impossible to pull off. Revan proved that much in SWTOR, as well as the disaster that befell the creators of Prototype when they utterly screwed the character of Alex Mercer in the second game, making him act wildly out of character.

 

Not wanting to see the characters return because you don't want to see them acting wildly out of character is a perfectly valid reason, it has nothing to do with people believing that they own anything?

 

This even applies to companions. Take Anders and Zevran in DA2 and the masses of people who didn't like how Anders was different than in Awakening, as well as the bug that had Zevran fail to recognise if he was still in a relationship with the Warden, leading him to "cheat" on them with Isabela and/or Hawke?

 

Bioware having their own canon is not being disputed, but if they didn't want the fans to have their own, they'd have created a game with no choice, a set personality, backstory and we'd be railroaded through every single decision.

 

It's a roleplaying game, are you seriously saying that we're no longer allowed to roleplay?

 

 

Roleplaying Hawke inside DA2 and The Warden in DAO is fine, However outside of that particular game, the only time that Character is "Yours" is inside your Headcannon if that Character makes a appearance inside a sequel even when that based on a imported save its no longer "Your Warden" even though the name is the same its what The Warden would be if he/she made the same choices as "Your Warden" that they share the same name is not relevant as unless they are a selectable member of your party they are now a NPC not the PC,

making the Roleplaying argument invalid really since you are now roleplaying the Inquisitor not Hawke/The Warden

[TheKomandorShepard]

Roleplaying Hawke inside DA2 and The Warden in DAO is fine, However outside of that particular game, the only time that Character is "Yours" is inside your Headcannon if that Character makes a appearance inside a sequel even when that based on a imported save its no longer "Your Warden" even though the name is the same its what The Warden would be if he/she made the same choices as "Your Warden" that they share the same name is not relevant as unless they are a selectable member of your party they are now a NPC not the PC,

making the Roleplaying argument invalid really since you are now roleplaying the Inquisitor not Hawke/The Warden

 

They are mine characters in fact perhaps not by law as it is bioware game however views and behavior let's say personality it created by player same for appearance bioware don't know what character i created or same for other players.It isn't headcanon it was everything in game and that 1 second after ending my warden turn into completely another person is stupid.Can they do that yes should they turn them into npc and destroy character that players created no many devs know that and don't bring blank state that warden is because in fact besides that player will create the warden don't have any personality traits.    

[warden6788]

They are mine characters in fact perhaps not by law as it is bioware game however views and behavior let's say personality it created by player same for appearance bioware don't know what character i created or same for other players.It isn't headcanon it was everything in game and that 1 second after ending my warden turn into completely another person is stupid.Can they do that yes should they turn them into npc and destroy character that players created no many devs know that and don't bring blank state that warden is because in fact besides that player will create the warden don't have any personality traits.    

I see what your saying but honestly to the whole discussion of the warden or hawke coming back the only way we'll ever get them back properly will be through maybe da 4 starring one or the other

[Jawzzus]

I think if they are in the game at all then it will be early on. At the peace treaty thing perhaps, where they both promptly get offed by the huge explosion/fade tear just as the Warden is about to make his/her speech (thus they are able to keep the Warden silent.  ) 

 

Or maybe it happens and they survive, but the blast injured the Warden's vocal chords, thus he can't talk during the game.

 

 

I'd still like it if they did like I mentioned before, all through conversation with other people or dispatches/letters

[Shark17676]

 

If that was true, then what would be the point of making the Warden's race determinant in Origins, rather than being a set character like say, Shepard or Hawke? Or having the ability to make decisions (especially in Origins, not so much in DA2) that affect the state of the game-world? Or taking the type to create a Keep to allow us to build the type of world based on the decisions we wish to import over?

 

Regardless of our "fanon", Bioware has repeatedly told us that our choices do matter and ignoring the previous games to force us to use a cookie-cutter Warden/Hawke would be a colossal disaster all around. Bioware's own canon from the comics and novels is just their take on their universe, which is no less valid than ours.

 

The casual retcon of some minor events/deaths to serve the overall story, like Leliana and (possibly) Anders in DA2 are fine, but major events like Alistair becoming King, which is true in the novels and comics, won't be in DAI unless you put him there or use a default, pre-built history where that happened.

 

Because it's their Intellectual property meaning that they can if they so choose to bring back a Character if they decide its integral to their story even if it violates your cannon because since as it's their IP they are not beholden to the fans demands.

 

Leliana was a case in point I remember well when DA2 came out there was many "how dare you bring back Leilana BW its violates my story because she died in my cannon"threads.

Yes we are given choices to determine things such as whether The Warden was Human,Elf,Dwarf etc however for example if Bioware were to decide for the purpose of the story that The Warden was a Male Human Noble then any Warden I created that did not match that ie Female Dhalish Elf is not "Cannon" it is fannon/Fanfic, BW is under no obligation to provide options in DAI that reflect my choices in DAO.

 

And most of the against argument is "BW should not bring back Warden/Hawke because its conflicts with "my headcannon" thereby implying that their headcannon should take precedence when that can never be so, the most we are and i hate to use the word "entitled" to is the option to have our previous choices reflected to some extent in game, however it is not mandatory that BW provide that.

 

We should be grateful for the choices we do get rather than readily complaining/demanding or delude ourselves into thinking that it's our right to tell BW how to write their story because in the end we don't "own"  DragonAge BW do we are merely readers nothing more.

 

 

First off: Please learn how to properly use the quoting system, man.  Your posts are awfully hard to read and pick apart what's yours and what's someone else's.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's at all fair to downplay the importance of maintaining player canon.  Suddenly giving us an "official" Warden and Hawke across the board will really break immersion.

[DisturbedJim83]

First off: Please learn how to properly use the quoting system, man.  Your posts are awfully hard to read and pick apart what's yours and what's someone else's.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's at all fair to downplay the importance of maintaining player canon.  Suddenly giving us an "official" Warden and Hawke across the board will really break immersion.

Apologies its different to the ones I'm used to the point I was making is that in DAI we are not roleplaying Warden/Hawke we are roleplaying The Inquisitor, attempting to roleplay both the Inquisitor and a Silent Warden already breaks immersion since The Inquisitor can't be expected to hear what the Warden is thinking making the immersion breaking argument Invalid.

 

Importing your save state from DAO/DA2 does not make The Hawke/Warden "yours" as they never were "yours" they were merely one possible outcome for BW's Character within the confines of the choices they permitted you to make. The old dungeons and dragons books had multiple paths with multiple endings the main character might survive to the end or die a nasty death before the end, however having these choices does not make that character "yours" it is and always will be "the writers" character.

 

Most of the reasons I have seen for objecting to Warden/Hawke returning are not based within the confines of choices/decisions available in the game,they are based on scenario's that are neither implied or explicitly stated.

[DavoRaydn]

The Warden's problem was the Blight. The Blight is over.

 

Hawke's problem was what went on in Kirkwall. As far as I know Hawke's far, far away from Kirkwall.

 

The Inquisitor's problem is the Fade and the threat to Thedas.

 

I'd rather the Warden and Hawke's arc just be finished lest they Revan-ize them.

 

This for me too

[Pateu]

Why? Wardens jobs are to end the blight and otherwise fight darkspawn. That isn't what your inquisitor is doing, so they wouldn't have a reason to seek out the warden.

 

 

Job or not, The Warden is probably the strongest humanoid in Thedas.

 

He also has firsthand experience with dealing with Fade Tears ( Warden's Keep, Broken Circle ) and demons.

[warden6788]

Apologies its different to the ones I'm used to the point I was making is that in DAI we are not roleplaying Warden/Hawke we are roleplaying The Inquisitor, attempting to roleplay both the Inquisitor and a Silent Warden already breaks immersion since The Inquisitor can't be expected to hear what the Warden is thinking making the immersion breaking argument Invalid.

 

Importing your save state from DAO/DA2 does not make The Hawke/Warden "yours" as they never were "yours" they were merely one possible outcome for BW's Character within the confines of the choices they permitted you to make. The old dungeons and dragons books had multiple paths with multiple endings the main character might survive to the end or die a nasty death before the end, however having these choices does not make that character "yours" it is and always will be "the writers" character.

 

Most of the reasons I have seen for objecting to Warden/Hawke returning are not based within the confines of choices/decisions available in the game,they are based on scenario's that are neither implied or explicitly stated.

I still feel the warden and hawke need to return for those players who got the they both just vanished ending. Not everyone can be pleased like that so will bioware just be like the inquisitor vanished the next pc vanished and so on. This will be a  major problem with the way they operate there's always a new protagonist system in  dragon age games. I remember seeing somewhere they were gonna try to pick a new protagonist every game but that doesn't work as well if you link the previous game with a save import and a mention the previous character doing something sometimes players really get attached to their pc's and want to finish their story before continuing. The plot holes will pile up like I said.

[DontWakeTheBear]

It'll turn out that both the Warden and Hawk will have been abducted and held prisoner by the big bad and you'll have to rescue them. When you release both of them you'll ask if they're ok, but the Warden will just kind of look at you, Hawk will reveal that the torture the Warden's gone through has made him/her mute. Problem solved. 

[HiroVoid]

It'll turn out that both the Warden and Hawk will have been abducted and held prisoner by the big bad and you'll have to rescue them. When you release both of them you'll ask if they're ok, but the Warden will just kind of look at you, Hawk will reveal that the torture the Warden's gone through has made him/her mute. Problem solved. 

It also made it, so that Hawke's every other line makes him sound diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggresive.

[DontWakeTheBear]

It also made it, so that Hawke's every other line makes him sound diplomatic, sarcastic, or aggresive.

Actually that's pathetically easy to set in the Keep, all it needs is for the Keep to ask you Gender/Class/Personality and you've basically got your Hawk. Looks might be the only thing people get snippy about.

[Uirebhiril]

So... is there some reason they couldn't/wouldn't just have someone do the voice for the Warden if it came down to it? Sure, they were silent in Origins, but is anyone really going to care if suddenly they have a voice? Seems it'd be the easiest thing to take care of if/when the Warden returns.

 

Bonus if those that are dead speak with an otherworldly beyond-the-grave echo....

[Jawzzus]

So... is there some reason they couldn't/wouldn't just have someone do the voice for the Warden if it came down to it? Sure, they were silent in Origins, but is anyone really going to care if suddenly they have a voice? Seems it'd be the easiest thing to take care of if/when the Warden returns.

 

Bonus if those that are dead speak with an otherworldly beyond-the-grave echo....

 

People would complain that the voice they picked doesn't sound like the voice thats in their head for their Warden