So how come you mentioned Sauron? He not only couldn't be defeated without magic, he wasn't.
While true, Sauron was defeated by not using the Space Magic, and by in fact destroying it. An unconventional strategy, since it never occurred to him that his enemies would willingly reject such power.
So how come you mentioned Sauron? He not only couldn't be defeated without magic, he wasn't.
Oh come on. Space magic =/= magic. Hell, I thought "space magic" was a term coined during the ending uproar especially for the endings.
Oh come on. Space magic =/= magic. Hell, I thought "space magic" was a term coined during the ending uproar especially for the endings.
I'd bet the term existed at least around the time of Farscape's popularity.
At far too high a price, for many. But there's enough threads about that
Sure. Just wanted to be sure you were talking about that again. It's a separate topic from the conventional victory thing we're doing in the rest of the thread.
Oh come on. Space magic =/= magic. Hell, I thought "space magic" was a term coined during the ending uproar especially for the endings.
But what you actually said was:
What would LotR be like if Sauron was impossible to defeat?
And of course, Sauron really was impossible to defeat except by magic.
It's your example. What were you trying to say?
While true, Sauron was defeated by not using the Space Magic, and by in fact destroying it. An unconventional strategy, since it never occurred to him that his enemies would willingly reject such power.
Hmm... instead of conventional victory, perhaps we should use the term "military victory." More accurate.
But what you actually said was:
And of course, Sauron really was impossible to defeat except by magic.
It's your example. What were you trying to say?
In LotR magic was part of the universe and the way Sauron was defeated was consistent with the rest of the story. "Space magic" is a term I use for the failed "ME3" ending. I hope it's more clear now.
Overloading synthetics and harnessing control of synthetics over long ranges are both part of the universe. (shrug)
You lose me at Synthesis.
In LotR magic was part of the universe and the way Sauron was defeated was consistent with the rest of the story. "Space magic" is a term I use for the failed "ME3" ending. I hope it's more clear now.
So when you said "what if Sauron were impossible to defeat" it was utterly meaningless. Sauron was impossible to defeat, but you like that sort of thing in universes with "magic." OK, that kind of works. It never made much sense as written because Sauron was possible to defeat.
Personally, when I've got a busted metaphor, I stop using it.
Shepard just needed a flying eagle.
So when you said "what if Sauron were impossible to defeat" it was utterly meaningless. Sauron was impossible to defeat, but you like that sort of thing in universes with "magic." OK, that kind of works. It never made much sense as written because Sauron was possible to defeat.
Personally, when I've got a busted metaphor, I stop using it.
Now you're just picking my words apart. Maybe the Sauron example wasn't very fortunate. Scratch it and the Star Wars example instead. You know perfectly well what I meant.
The Empire is millions of years old?
The Empire is millions of years old?
No, the Empire is a powerful, intimidating villain in a Space Opera. But you wouldn't want to defeat villains, it seems. The Rebel Alliance wouldn't have defeated the Empire if they all just put their heads in the sand and cry that the Empire is too powerful and impossible to defeat.
EDIT: How does being millions of years old make something better, anyway?
Now you're just picking my words apart. Maybe the Sauron example wasn't very fortunate. Scratch it and the Star Wars example instead. You know perfectly well what I meant.
Mostly, anyway. It's still not clear when military victory is required for a series.
Come to think of it, was Star Wars even a win? I mean, Emperor dead with no clear successor, yeah, DS 2 blown up, but what are the relative fleet strengths after the Battle of Endor? IIRC the EU has the war dragging on for a long time, but my understanding is that all that stuff is now in question.
No, the Empire is a powerful, intimidating villain in a Space Opera. But you wouldn't want to defeat villains, it seems. The Rebel Alliance wouldn't have defeated the Empire if they all just put their heads in the sand and cry that the Empire is too powerful and impossible to defeat.
Thankfully, the Death Star was a man-made, man-navigated, recently-built construct with blueprints just lying around that point at a structural flaw.
The Reapers ... ? Not so much. I'm all for defeating villains (nice try!), but I'm also not into the idea of silly, lazy, explosive solutions just so the player can pump their fists.
Hmm... instead of conventional victory, perhaps we should use the term "military victory." More accurate.
Perhaps. Given that everyone seems to mistake "conventional victory" with "throw our ships at the Reapers and hope we win" it would avoid more confusion.
Conventional victory and military victory are pretty interchangeable, though.
It still implies normal tactics that any cycle could've employed and/or developed.
Conventional victory and military victory are pretty interchangeable, though.
It still implies normal tactics...
So far so good...
... that any cycle could've employed and/or developed.
Nope. Under the assumption that no cycle before got the chance to fight the Reapers head on without them using the Citadel trap, and that no cycle had access to data on the Reapers the current one has, no other cycle could have developed the necessary tactics.
Mostly, anyway. It's still not clear when military victory is required for a series.
Come to think of it, was Star Wars even a win? I mean, Emperor dead with no clear successor, yeah, DS 2 blown up, but what are the relative fleet strengths after the Battle of Endor? IIRC the EU has the war dragging on for a long time, but my understanding is that all that stuff is now in question.
If you see the trilogy as a closed story, then it's definitely a win; in the EU, including Timothy Zahn's books which I absolutely adore, the Imperial Remnant went on causing major trouble for the New Republic for a long time. I really recommend Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy books if you missed them - they are excellent.
Under the assumption that no cycle before got the chance to fight the Reapers head on without them using the Citadel trap, and that no cycle had access to data on the Reapers the current one has, no other cycle could have developed the necessary tactics.
Assuming this is the case is pretty poor writing, given how advanced previous cycles have been.
Assuming this is the case is pretty poor writing, given how advanced previous cycles have been.
I'd argue it's actually good writing because it takes the player's emotions into consideration. The player has no emotional stake in any previous cycles apart from the Protheans; and this assumption is based on the sacrifice of the Protheans and the conclusion of the story of the first game.
I'd argue it's actually good writing because it takes the player's emotions into consideration. The player has no emotional stake in any previous cycles apart from the Protheans; and this assumption is based on the sacrifice of the Protheans and the conclusion of the story of the first game.
And I'd disagree, because it operates under the assumption that all previous cycles were inept and that humanity's cycle is conveniently "special".
Conventional victory and military victory are pretty interchangeable, though.
It still implies normal tactics that any cycle could've employed and/or developed.
Define "normal tactics"
And I'd disagree, because it operates under the assumption that all previous cycles were inept and that humanity's cycle is conveniently "special".
Special, or lucky?
It was the Protheans that gave them the chance, after all
Define "normal tactics"
Strategic flanks and diversions with thanix cannons strapped to every ship, for one.
And I'd disagree, because it operates under the assumption that all previous cycles were inept and that humanity's cycle is conveniently "special".
And if they find a "Reaper off" button, how is that better? And more to the point, how is it that this "all previous cycles were inept" assumption no longer applies?
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