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if the story made you kill either hawke or the warden who would you fight.


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#126
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I've thought about this for a while. It would be... interesting... for me, because I intentionally tried to make my Hawkes have different personalities and viewpoints than the Wardens they imported.

 

The only time I took exception to this was when I imported the Amell mage. She was alright, but hated the Chantry for taking her from her mother and siblings and took Kolrim's offer. Drinking dragon's blood (Blood Mage) made her crazier and her personality kind of spiraled afterwards. Same with this import's Hawke becoming a Reaver after killing his first dragon. I figured since they were cousins that dragon blood called to both of them. I like to RP those two as having Tevinter lineage through the Amell line.



#127
Dean_the_Young

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I guess the difference is that the Warden can avoid the crooked deeds, while Hawke has no choice but to join smugglers or mercenaries to get his/her family into the city, and harbor apostates while possibly being an apostate him/herself. That said, I don't really consider this to be really corrupt anyway, and it seems to me that Kirkwall is entirely corrupt itself. To even get into this place, you have to bribe the guards.

 

That just means Hawke is a another cog in the corruption, not that Hawke isn't corrupt. You see similar rationalizations for corruption in, say, Afghanistan, where bribes and kickbacks and patronage networks are the established way of doing business.

 

When you get down to it, pretty much every member of Hawke's crew has at best a casual acquaintenship with the concept of rule of law. I'm not just talking how Isabella is a pirate with a not so distant criminal past or how Varric blackmails and bribes with the best of them, or even that Anders is a dissident to an established authority and is helping a subversive network of dissidents: we're talking about a group in which even the captain of the city guard and a Chantry boy is amiable to going around and participating in break ins, burglary, and outright murder with little more than a tisk tisk. A group led by a person who is a nouveau rich patron, who effectively purchases nobility status and who's influence is used as shelter and protection by the companion crew of accomplices for their own ends. A person whose closest thing to a legitimate business is cooperation with foreign financial interests paying the local mafia.

 

 

If we weren't the ones playing them, Hawke and co would be the kind of enemies we'd be expecting. A metoric ascent from nobody to nightmare via a good deal of  self-interested timely violence? The corrupt and complicit city guard captain who looks the other way for all his activities, when she's not taking part? The fem-fatale pirate and past slaver who's moving to other sorts of crime? The 1% business partner and spymaster who buys friends and influence? The underground revolutionary? An enhanced bruiser who has no job or skill set past being the muscle? The foreign magi who was exiled for continuing down a path of mad magic-science? A complicit churchman?

 

It's quite telling that the people who most consistently fought against corruption, and even then primarily in her own sphere of concern, were the primary antagonists.

 

 

Dragon Age 2: Corruption is Cool.


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#128
Silcron

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That just means Hawke is a another cog in the corruption, not that Hawke isn't corrupt. You see similar rationalizations for corruption in, say, Afghanistan, where bribes and kickbacks and patronage networks are the established way of doing business.
 
When you get down to it, pretty much every member of Hawke's crew has at best a casual acquaintenship with the concept of rule of law. I'm not just talking how Isabella is a pirate with a not so distant criminal past or how Varric blackmails and bribes with the best of them, or even that Anders is a dissident to an established authority and is helping a subversive network of dissidents: we're talking about a group in which even the captain of the city guard and a Chantry boy is amiable to going around and participating in break ins, burglary, and outright murder with little more than a tisk tisk. A group led by a person who is a nouveau rich patron, who effectively purchases nobility status and who's influence is used as shelter and protection by the companion crew of accomplices for their own ends. A person whose closest thing to a legitimate business is cooperation with foreign financial interests paying the local mafia.
 
 
If we weren't the ones playing them, Hawke and co would be the kind of enemies we'd be expecting. A metoric ascent from nobody to nightmare via a good deal of timely violence? The corrupt and complicit city guard captain who looks the other way for all his activities, when she's not taking part? The fem-fatale pirate and past slaver who's moving to other sorts of crime? The 1% business partner and spymaster who buys friends and influence? The underground revolutionary? An enhanced bruiser who has no job or skill set past being the muscle? The foreign magi who was exiled for continuing down a path of mad magic-science? A complicit churchman?
 
It's quite telling that the people who most consistently fought against corruption, and even then primarily in her own sphere of concern, were the primary antagonists.
 
 
Dragon Age 2: Corruption is Cool.


But Dean, you are forgetting something. Hawke was by chance in a position to kick the qunari out of kirkwall in front of the nobles, and thus be named Champion. People cheer for Hawke, thus making him the hero. Because if people see you as a hero then you must be one.

It's just like Man of Steel. Yeah a couple of buildings fell here and there while Superman was fighting Zod, but everyone cheers for Superman, so he's the hero.

Who cares about not following the law to the letter, or a couple of "accidents" here and there, or a tinsy bit of corruption?

 

Edit: though now that I think about it the marketing was about "Becoming the Champion of Kirkwall" and "rising to power", they never said anything about being the hero.



#129
Uccio

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That would be as lame as it gets. Who says I want to kill either of my previous character? If the game is a RPG I would walk away, if I would be forced to choose I would get royally pissed.



#130
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Dean the Young's not a fan of video game buffoonery, I see. Ah well.

 

I won't tell anyone what to enjoy, but I don't think it's a good idea to take Dragon Age too seriously.

 

Personally, I think it could've been even more corrupt. Like GTA4 or somethig. That also was a story about a violent immigrant. I wouldn't want it to be as bad, but more Act 1 missions living in the muck of Lowtown would've been funny.



#131
Gtdef

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That just means Hawke is a another cog in the corruption, not that Hawke isn't corrupt. You see similar rationalizations for corruption in, say, Afghanistan, where bribes and kickbacks and patronage networks are the established way of doing business.

 

When you get down to it, pretty much every member of Hawke's crew has at best a casual acquaintenship with the concept of rule of law. I'm not just talking how Isabella is a pirate with a not so distant criminal past or how Varric blackmails and bribes with the best of them, or even that Anders is a dissident to an established authority and is helping a subversive network of dissidents: we're talking about a group in which even the captain of the city guard and a Chantry boy is amiable to going around and participating in break ins, burglary, and outright murder with little more than a tisk tisk. A group led by a person who is a nouveau rich patron, who effectively purchases nobility status and who's influence is used as shelter and protection by the companion crew of accomplices for their own ends. A person whose closest thing to a legitimate business is cooperation with foreign financial interests paying the local mafia.

 

 

If we weren't the ones playing them, Hawke and co would be the kind of enemies we'd be expecting. A metoric ascent from nobody to nightmare via a good deal of timely violence? The corrupt and complicit city guard captain who looks the other way for all his activities, when she's not taking part? The fem-fatale pirate and past slaver who's moving to other sorts of crime? The 1% business partner and spymaster who buys friends and influence? The underground revolutionary? An enhanced bruiser who has no job or skill set past being the muscle? The foreign magi who was exiled for continuing down a path of mad magic-science? A complicit churchman?

 

It's quite telling that the people who most consistently fought against corruption, and even then primarily in her own sphere of concern, were the primary antagonists.

 

 

Dragon Age 2: Corruption is Cool.

 

Yea sure, lets be totally inaccurate about a man's history and only see that he is a rich guy with the captain of the guard in his pocket. And of course the system is always right with no margin for error and laws in medieval times were fullproof and totally fair.

 

Go and check every individual quest in the game, and other than working for outlaws to enter the city and fighting the Templars in 2 instances, if he chooses to, everyone else he kills is either in self defense, slaver, bounty, or an abomination. Sometimes he operates outside the law but killing slavers in Hightown is hardly "corrupt".

 

He gets meddled in politics because the Viscount himself asks him to in act 2 and in act 3 there isn't even an established power in Kirkwall, just the military rule of a madwoman that most highborns don't accept her. She is effectively is an usurper.

 

Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is hardly "corrupt'. He even accepts responsibility for the actions of his friends when he really can do nothing to prevent the events that occur short to kill them on the spot (and that's mostly Anders).

 

Even if you play the game as a total thug, taking in face value his actions, he does more good than bad. He certainly is not a saint and he can be a pretty glib killer and a really bad person if the player chooses but if I needed someone to blame for the misfortunes of the world, I don't think that would be Hawke although politics would make him a great target cause that's what politics are for.

 

That said, he should answer for his trespasses but ultimately I believe he is a hero.

 

PS. Of course I understand that this is a game and has huge plot holes, but that's the story.



#132
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Both, neither of them have a place in the future of the DA series, IMO.



#133
Dean_the_Young

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Dean the Young's not a fan of video game buffoonery, I see. Ah well.

 

I won't tell anyone what to enjoy, but I don't think it's a good idea to take Dragon Age too seriously.

 

Personally, I think it could've been even more corrupt. Like GTA4 or somethig. That also was a story about a violent immigrant. I wouldn't want it to be as bad, but more Act 1 missions living in the muck of Lowtown would've been funny.

 

Hm? I'm quite the fan- in fact, I probably enjoyed DA2 despite it's flaws more than quite a few people I vaguely remember about the forums. I just got enjoyment out of it on a different level than a lot of people.

 

Hawke and Co are corrupt as sin, but they aren't malevolent. For a lot of people (particularly westerners), corruption is a concept tied hand-in-hand with sinister malevolence. If it's not evil or simply greedy, if it can be said to be for a good cause or what not, it can't be corruption because corruption is bad and whatever Hawke and Co are doing isn't bad. That's the sort of rationalization people like gtdef start to cling to- the idea that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons somehow makes it stop being corruption. Corruption is bad, Hawke and Co aren't bad, ergo it isn't corruption.

 

That corruption can (and frequently is) 'doing the wrong thing for the right reasons' because it can be rationalized as being for the best rarely comes up. Corruption in practice, after all, is frequently based in utilitarian ethical terms and for subjects of emotional investment: for this cause, or that person, or the greater good. In underdeveloped places like Afghanistan, for example, it's frequently justified by participants based on the weakness and limits of the government and resources- even though the corruption is itself weakening those institutions and taxing those resources.



#134
Dean_the_Young

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But Dean, you are forgetting something. Hawke was by chance in a position to kick the qunari out of kirkwall in front of the nobles, and thus be named Champion. People cheer for Hawke, thus making him the hero. Because if people see you as a hero then you must be one.

It's just like Man of Steel. Yeah a couple of buildings fell here and there while Superman was fighting Zod, but everyone cheers for Superman, so he's the hero.

Who cares about not following the law to the letter, or a couple of "accidents" here and there, or a tinsy bit of corruption?

 

Edit: though now that I think about it the marketing was about "Becoming the Champion of Kirkwall" and "rising to power", they never said anything about being the hero.

 

I like how you're mixing the sarcasm with the fake rebuttal. Like that part about being the public hero: narcocorridos, anyone?


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