228 réponses à ce sujet

[Divine Justinia V]

Celene >

 

Also, it's concept art? How many conceptual pieces have we seen that look nothing like the actual in-game model? pls.

[k3ttch]

 

- In comparison to Grand Duke Gaspard de Chalons, Celene is the more 'liberal' choice.  She loves the arts, she wants to secure peace (as was mentioned in the Return to Ostagar DLC and in The Masked Empire) with Ferelden.  She is still, however, very manipulative (IE read what happened to her lover's parents - and her entire rule in general), less direct, does not have the strict honour system that Gaspard has. She does, however, wish for greater equality for the elves. She won't do as much as she told Briala she would, I think, but she will seek some changes.

 

 

 

 

So she's basically Frog Bhelen with boobs?

[TheKomandorShepard]

So she's basically Frog Bhelen with boobs?

She isn't Bhelen in any matter he was strong and independent when empress is weak and bow to nobles will when behlen could enforce change she won't be able enforce change as she isn't in power only other nobles are and isn't strong enough to take it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She isn't Bhelen in any matter he was strong and independent when empress is weak and bow to nobles will when behlen could enforce change she won't be able enforce change as she isn't in power only other nobles are and isn't strong enough to take it.

Yeah, because it wasn't like Bhelen was powerless before the Assembly, which consist of the Noble Caste, before the Warden arrived. Wait a minute...

[The Night Haunter]

She isn't Bhelen in any matter he was strong and independent when empress is weak and bow to nobles will when behlen could enforce change she won't be able enforce change as she isn't in power only other nobles are and isn't strong enough to take it.

That's rather incorrect. In TME it is shown that she maintains power even without taking a husband to 'help' solidify her position. She makes a lot of changes regarding the Elves and actively prevents Gaspard from launching attacks on Dalish Clans in Orlais. The whole reason Gaspard starts the civil war is that she doesn't bow to the nobles and ignores them more than she ought (and he wants power). She also has to split some of her power with the Chantry as the Chantry is more independent than the Dwarven Shaperate, so she has fewer personal resources to use to combat Gaspard.

 

I don't think she is the best Empress, she is rather selfish (a trait she and Bhelen share) and she is very manipulative, but she does push forward several important reforms (allowing commoners into the university, and several unspecified benefits to elves), which is also similar to Bhelen. I like Gaspard better, but saying she is weak is plain wrong.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, because it wasn't like Bhelen was powerless before the Assembly, which consist of the Noble Caste, before the Warden arrived. Wait a minute...

He wasn't?

He killed his enemies or opposition 2 brothers probably  his own father... besides he wasn't powerless in fact he would win but it would take more time... so well.

 

That's rather incorrect. In TME it is shown that she maintains power even without taking a husband to 'help' solidify her position. She makes a lot of changes regarding the Elves and actively prevents Gaspard from launching attacks on Dalish Clans in Orlais. The whole reason Gaspard starts the civil war is that she doesn't bow to the nobles and ignores them more than she ought (and he wants power). She also has to split some of her power with the Chantry as the Chantry is more independent than the Dwarven Shaperate, so she has fewer personal resources to use to combat Gaspard.

 

I don't think she is the best Empress, she is rather selfish (a trait she and Bhelen share) and she is very manipulative, but she does push forward several important reforms (allowing commoners into the university, and several unspecified benefits to elves), which is also similar to Bhelen. I like Gaspard better, but saying she is weak is plain wrong.

As far she didn't had much power when other nobles disliked something what she wanted do she hiding under the bed and did what they wanted pretty much she barely changed anything and that change was irrelevant and that was during her entire rule when behlen changed much during few years.Behlen changed a lot things whether other like it or no when empress fear other nobles opinion.Gaspard was better because he knew that she bows to other nobles and will do what they want thats why he knew what she will do in the end and was always step ahead. 

 

Yes behlen is shelfish but also powerful and competent it reminds me one ghoul in fallout 2 who was selfish but tells you that his selfishness will have positive for the city and in fact to get best ending you must do his quest i don't see this in empress as i said she fears other nobles and when other nobles won't be pleased she hide under her bed so much for changes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He wasn't?

He killed his enemies or opposition 2 brothers probably  his own father... besides he wasn't powerless in fact he would win but it would take more time... so well.

Celene had killed political enemies as well in the past. 

 

And we have no idea how the Dwarf King issue would have gone without Warden intervention so you can't possibly know he would have won. 

[Crunchycarp]

He wasn't?
He killed his enemies or opposition 2 brothers probably his own father... besides he wasn't powerless in fact he would win but it would take more time... so well.


As far she didn't had much power when other nobles disliked something what she wanted do she hiding under the bed and did what they wanted pretty much she barely changed anything and that change was irrelevant and that was during her entire rule when behlen changed much during few years.Behlen changed a lot things whether other like it or no when empress fear other nobles opinion.Gaspard was better because he knew that she bows to other nobles and will do what they want thats why he knew what she will do in the end and was always step ahead.

Yes behlen is shelfish but also powerful and competent it reminds me one ghoul in fallout 2 who was selfish but tells you that his selfishness will have positive for the city and in fact to get best ending you must do his quest i don't see this in empress as i said she fears other nobles and when other nobles won't be pleased she hide under her bed so much for changes.

Your comparing Orlais and Orzammar, Orlais if more difficult to run than just a city.
Celene wants to change the way Elves are treated in Orlais. Gaspard doesn't give a s**t about elves, all he wants is power and to invade Fereldan. To me Gaspard would obviously be a Tyrant.

[AresKeith]

And we have no idea how the Dwarf King issue would have gone without Warden intervention so you can't possibly know he would have won. 

 

Probably a civil war or a battle to the death between Bhelen and Harrowmont 

[The Night Haunter]

He wasn't?

He killed his enemies or opposition 2 brothers probably  his own father... besides he wasn't powerless in fact he would win but it would take more time... so well.

 

As far she didn't had much power when other nobles disliked something what she wanted do she hiding under the bed and did what they wanted pretty much she barely changed anything and that change was irrelevant and that was during her entire rule when behlen changed much during few years.Behlen changed a lot things whether other like it or no when empress fear other nobles opinion.Gaspard was better because he knew that she bows to other nobles and will do what they want thats why he knew what she will do in the end and was always step ahead. 

 

Yes behlen is shelfish but also powerful and competent it reminds me one ghoul in fallout 2 who was selfish but tells you that his selfishness will have positive for the city and in fact to get best ending you must do his quest i don't see this in empress as i said she fears other nobles and when other nobles won't be pleased she hide under her bed so much for changes.

I'm sorry, but please put some punctuation in. I can barely understand what you were saying.

 

She hid under her bed? You clearly didn't read TME, it makes a point of throwing her into situations she is unused to and she generally does a fair job of resolving them. Gaspard was going to rebel against her no matter what she did (short of marrying him). She refuses to get married, despite that making the nobility dislike her, so I also don't see her bending to the will of the nobles. She didn't change anything? Well she got an elven commoner into the university, which is a big step in social and economic progress. We aren't really given details about anything else she's done besiders Briala saying she made several important steps towards Elven equality, so I don't see how you can say they didn't do anything since we don't even know what they are.

 

Gaspard was indeed one step ahead of her during certain parts of the novel, but she beats him clearly in others. The whole garden scene with Teagan she clearly wins, since Gaspard's goal was to start a war and that obviously failed. The hunting scene she also beats him in, since he attempts and fails to kill her. Halamshiral is the first time Gaspard really gets the upper hand, and she still survives it.

 

If you just want to dislike her because she is a manipulative, selfish Empress that's fine, but don't make up details.

 

As for Bhelen being the best ending for the dwarves I totally agree. The Orliesan situation is a little different though, Gaspard is a good choice as he is honorable and cares about his soldiers, but Celene could also be a good choice as she is more progressive, but the whole Briala situation may have changed her, we'll see.

[The Night Haunter]

Your comparing Orlais and Orzammar, Orlais if more difficult to run than just a city.
Celene wants to change the way Elves are treated in Orlais. Gaspard doesn't give a s**t about elves, all he wants is power and to invade Fereldan. To me Gaspard would obviously be a Tyrant.

No more a tyrant than Celene, the main difference is he sees advancement for Orlais through territorial expansion, while Celene pursues it through arts and economics. Also Gaspard cares more for his underlings than Celene does, that's why his soldiers love him. Celene only wants to help the elves cause of Briala, and after the end of TME it is entirely possible her stance has shifted. Without Briala there to nudge her along Celene might not care quite so much about the elves. To be honest I found TME to put Gaspard in a better light than Celene, he never acts without honor and he always respects his promises, whereas Celene killed her lovers parents.

[Crunchycarp]

No more a tyrant than Celene, the main difference is he sees advancement for Orlais through territorial expansion, while Celene pursues it through arts and economics. Also Gaspard cares more for his underlings than Celene does, that's why his soldiers love him. Celene only wants to help the elves cause of Briala, and after the end of TME it is entirely possible her stance has shifted. Without Briala there to nudge her along Celene might not care quite so much about the elves. To be honest I found TME to put Gaspard in a better light than Celene, he never acts without honor and he always respects his promises, whereas Celene killed her lovers parents.

Personally I don't care about honor but I see your point. She might of changed her views on elves after Briala left. We'll just have to wait and see.

[The Night Haunter]

Personally I don't care about honor but I see your point. She might of changed her views on elves after Briala left. We'll just have to wait and see.

Actually one of the things I love about the book was that neither character was a plain old good guy and neither was a bad guy. Although Gaspard started off being cast in a more evil villain type of role towards the end his character is better defined and we can see that he is in fact a dynamic character with both good and bad qualities. Same for Celene. There are legitimate cases for both Celene and Gaspard. (Whereas the Bhelen/Harrowmont dilema clearly has Bhelen being the better choice)

[TheKomandorShepard]

Celene had killed political enemies as well in the past. 

 

And we have no idea how the Dwarf King issue would have gone without Warden intervention so you can't possibly know he would have won. 

You mean how she become empress? pff she only hired assassins to hurt her...

Someone did her dirty job she was on mercy. 

 

Behlen was much smarter , ruthless and stronger than harrowmont it is rather clear who would eventually win pretty he eliminated from game every harrowmont warrior.

 

 

 

Your comparing Orlais and Orzammar, Orlais if more difficult to run than just a city.
Celene wants to change the way Elves are treated in Orlais. Gaspard doesn't give a s**t about elves, all he wants is power and to invade Fereldan. To me Gaspard would obviously be a Tyrant.

Orlais and Orzammar have smiliar politics in fact it would be even harder as many in that city were lawful stupid when behlen tried crush those laws and he did it as first thing.

 

It doesn't matter who is tyrant we don't discuss who would be tyrant but who is strong and in fact we don't talk about gaspard at all.

 

 

I'm sorry, but please put some punctuation in. I can barely understand what you were saying.

 

She hid under her bed? You clearly didn't read TME, it makes a point of throwing her into situations she is unused to and she generally does a fair job of resolving them. Gaspard was going to rebel against her no matter what she did (short of marrying him). She refuses to get married, despite that making the nobility dislike her, so I also don't see her bending to the will of the nobles. She didn't change anything? Well she got an elven commoner into the university, which is a big step in social and economic progress. We aren't really given details about anything else she's done besiders Briala saying she made several important steps towards Elven equality, so I don't see how you can say they didn't do anything since we don't even know what they are.

 

Gaspard was indeed one step ahead of her during certain parts of the novel, but she beats him clearly in others. The whole garden scene with Teagan she clearly wins, since Gaspard's goal was to start a war and that obviously failed. The hunting scene she also beats him in, since he attempts and fails to kill her. Halamshiral is the first time Gaspard really gets the upper hand, and she still survives it.

 

If you just want to dislike her because she is a manipulative, selfish Empress that's fine, but don't make up details.

 

As for Bhelen being the best ending for the dwarves I totally agree. The Orliesan situation is a little different though, Gaspard is a good choice as he is honorable and cares about his soldiers, but Celene could also be a good choice as she is more progressive, but the whole Briala situation may have changed her, we'll see.

 

LoL so that she refused gaspard because she had own lover should mean that she don't bend to nobles please...

Yay it took her only 20 years of her rule to get 1 elf she is true master another 20 years maybe she will get another elf... this is best example why she bend to another nobles rather than rule with her own.

 

Please don't compare it even to behlen who as first thing he did is recruit casteless to the army which was fatal insult for warrior caste and probably other nobles , then he left open city and possible took down congress.

Well on that party she was pleasing nobles and in fact she still screwd up that so gaspard didn't start war sure but still won there.

 

I dislike her because she is weak thats one of reason why i don't like harrowmont and prefer behlen.Im not fan of gaspard as well however guy is stronger than she is but how much he is strong time will tell in fact he was closer to behlen but still is rather far from him.  

 

As far i don't support neither as Gaspard is competent but lacks behlen desire to change when celene have that desire but is lapdog for nobles and will never able pull what behlen did as she is too weak.

[Banxey]

No more a tyrant than Celene, the main difference is he sees advancement for Orlais through territorial expansion, while Celene pursues it through arts and economics. Also Gaspard cares more for his underlings than Celene does, that's why his soldiers love him. Celene only wants to help the elves cause of Briala, and after the end of TME it is entirely possible her stance has shifted. Without Briala there to nudge her along Celene might not care quite so much about the elves. To be honest I found TME to put Gaspard in a better light than Celene, he never acts without honor and he always respects his promises, whereas Celene killed her lovers parents.

 

I have to disagree. When Celene found the soldiers who had abandoned her, she let the loyal one live even though the decision put her in jeopardy. When she came across a village that had been decimated, she told them to kill the next lot of nobility who came through. She cares about her people, not just her soldiers. She was shocked to learn that Gaspard knew what it would mean for the people of Orlais if he forced a war. She's hardly someone who doesn't care. Unlike Gaspard, she cares for the people of Orlais, not only the people it benefits her to care about, or the people a code dictates she has to.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You mean how she become empress? pff she only hired assassins to hurt her...

Someone did her dirty job she was on mercy. 

 

Behlen was much smarter , ruthless and stronger than harrowmont it is rather clear who would eventually win pretty he eliminated from game every harrowmont warrior.

Actually, hiring assassins is a much more intelligent move than doing the deed yourself because then there is less evidence towards you being involved. So Bhelen was actually dumber than Celene in that regard. 

 

Again, it is not clear. Orzammar was in a political deadlock. The Assembly needed the favor of a Paragon to decide it. That's the opposite of "it is rather clear who would eventually win". 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All I know is I'm going Celene over Gaspard unless game events change my opinion. 

[The Night Haunter]

 

Orlais and Orzammar have smiliar politics in fact it would be even harder as many in that city were lawful stupid when behlen tried crush those laws and he did it as first thing.

 

It doesn't matter who is tyrant we don't discuss who would be tyrant but who is strong and in fact we don't talk about gaspard at all.

 

 

I'm sorry, it's harder to change a city than an Empire? An Empire is far more decentralized than a single City (even one like Orzammar). The Empress (or Emperor) would have whatever power they can carve out through their supporters. Besides the Chevaliers most of Orlais army would be raised at a more local level (and would thus be loyal to the local count/baron/duke) and even the Chevaliers have mixed loyalties. In Orzammar the ruler of each house controls a significant portion of the cities overall warriors, plus the King has even more soldiers pledged directly to him. Bhelen (after he is King) has Aeducan soldiers loyal to him and the Royal Guard as well, giving him a clear advantage over any other single house. Celene, even as Empress, can rely only on her own soldiers and some of the Chevaliers, while the rest of the army is loyal to who ever their lord is loyal to.

The ruler of a city has a much easier time enacting change and ruling with an iron fist than the leader of an Empire does.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Actually, hiring assassins is a much more intelligent move than doing the deed yourself because then there is less evidence towards you being involved. So Bhelen was actually dumber than Celene in that regard. 

 

Again, it is not clear. Orzammar was in a political deadlock. The Assembly needed the favor of a Paragon to decide it. That's the opposite of "it is rather clear who would eventually win". 

Behlen didn't that himself... he either manipulated his brothers so they killed each other or if that didn't worked framed DN warden into that then killed his father.Celene just hurted herself and was on mercy emperor lover that did job for her.

 

It is clear as i said harrowmont needed the warden very first quest shows that behlen outsmarted him and scare harrowmont warriors or manipulated them so he could win in the arena. Hm? they don't finally it would be resolved as it is said many times it would take couple months problem was that the warden didn't had so much time so crown was only acceleration.

 

 

I'm sorry, it's harder to change a city than an Empire? An Empire is far more decentralized than a single City (even one like Orzammar). The Empress (or Emperor) would have whatever power they can carve out through their supporters. Besides the Chevaliers most of Orlais army would be raised at a more local level (and would thus be loyal to the local count/baron/duke) and even the Chevaliers have mixed loyalties. In Orzammar the ruler of each house controls a significant portion of the cities overall warriors, plus the King has even more soldiers pledged directly to him. Bhelen (after he is King) has Aeducan soldiers loyal to him and the Royal Guard as well, giving him a clear advantage over any other single house. Celene, even as Empress, can rely only on her own soldiers and some of the Chevaliers, while the rest of the army is loyal to who ever their lord is loyal to.

The ruler of a city has a much easier time enacting change and ruling with an iron fist than the leader of an Empire does.

 

How much something is hard depends on the person that is doing that... As i said orzamar was heavier because it had many lawful stupid peoples that clinged to suicidal traditions when behlen was trying destroy those traditions most dwarves blindly follow it.It is true that king controls army but also it is false depends king as i said behlen insulted warriors so i doubt that many would be loyal to him rather than forced to be loyal to him. And not mention that they live around darkspawn that are constant danger.

[The Night Haunter]

I have to disagree. When Celene found the soldiers who had abandoned her, she let the loyal one live even though the decision put her in jeopardy. When she came across a village that had been decimated, she told them to kill the next lot of nobility who came through. She cares about her people, not just her soldiers. She was shocked to learn that Gaspard knew what it would mean for the people of Orlais if he forced a war. She's hardly someone who doesn't care. Unlike Gaspard, she cares for the people of Orlais, not only the people it benefits her to care about, or the people a code dictates she has to.

She ordered the death of her lovers parents. Can't get much colder than that. She does kill the soldiers who may be loyal, she doesn't give them a chance, she knows they are a potential (only potential) security risk and she has them killed. Gaspard offers the one she doesn't kill an honorable death (and freedom should the man have managed to kill Gaspard) rather than torture him for information. Had Celene and Gaspard's positions been reversed I have little doubt that Celene would have tortured him. Gaspard pays an elf that gives him information, even though the elf recognizes his heraldry and knew whose men had caused the trouble in the warehouse (which is a potential source of embarrassment for Gaspard) Gaspard doesn't have him killed. Instead he pays the elf what he promised and lets him go. Celene obviously would have killed the elf (she killed the soldiers for the same thing so it isn't a big leap).

It isn't so black and white as you make it out to be.

[Reznore57]

I'm not too fond of the last concept art , her dress looks too plain and it sort of remind me of some Chantry uniform.

It doesn't feel very Orlesian, there's a bit of feather but really nothing too over the top.

In the  Masked Empire , she needs people to help her dress up and she has trouble sitting down ...I'm not seeing that with that dress at all.

She looks like some warrior empress .

 

Maybe she's going to be different in Inquisition , who knows.

But it boggles the mind , Morrigan has a fancier dress than the Empress.

Anyway I "ship" Celene and Gaspard , not talking about love here ,just political marriage.

I think both of them are annoying , but they're both ambitious and driven.

 

To be honest , those fancy orlesian nobles are just boring to me , and I'm mostly curious about Morrigan working for the Empress.

[Oasis_JS]

She ordered the death of her lovers parents. Can't get much colder than that. She does kill the soldiers who may be loyal, she doesn't give them a chance, she knows they are a potential (only potential) security risk and she has them killed. Gaspard offers the one she doesn't kill an honorable death (and freedom should the man have managed to kill Gaspard) rather than torture him for information. Had Celene and Gaspard's positions been reversed I have little doubt that Celene would have tortured him. Gaspard pays an elf that gives him information, even though the elf recognizes his heraldry and knew whose men had caused the trouble in the warehouse (which is a potential source of embarrassment for Gaspard) Gaspard doesn't have him killed. Instead he pays the elf what he promised and lets him go. Celene obviously would have killed the elf (she killed the soldiers for the same thing so it isn't a big leap).

It isn't so black and white as you make it out to be.

the problem the ordering of death. of all the servants. was the game.. sadly.. =( if she didnt do it..the another one would have .   althought she did spare bri..because she did love her..but yeah by the way  i dont think he ever was making it black and white..i think you just assuming that..

at the end..they all have some crazy **** going on with them all... 

[The Ascendant]

I find myself finding parallels with Celene and Elizabeth I which is both good and bad. They are both strong, cunning and intelligent women. However the big picture still remains. She nearly 40 and unmarried with no children or any protégéslike when she was one of the Lady Dowager Mantillion. Even if she wins the war, she marry and secure Orlais' future or go out like Elizabeth. If she dies with no direct successors Orlais will be thrown into Civil War, again. Just my opinion.

[Char]

I think that perhaps the short hairstyle and plainer dress could be indicative of a 'base form'. It wouldnt (or so I imagine) be difficult to add different wigs and ornaments and sashes for different scenes if a short base style was used. To me this suggests that perhaps she will have a lot of varied appearances in the game, which having read the above posts, is something I would expect from this kind of character.

[Banxey]

She ordered the death of her lovers parents. Can't get much colder than that. She does kill the soldiers who may be loyal, she doesn't give them a chance, she knows they are a potential (only potential) security risk and she has them killed. Gaspard offers the one she doesn't kill an honorable death (and freedom should the man have managed to kill Gaspard) rather than torture him for information. Had Celene and Gaspard's positions been reversed I have little doubt that Celene would have tortured him. Gaspard pays an elf that gives him information, even though the elf recognizes his heraldry and knew whose men had caused the trouble in the warehouse (which is a potential source of embarrassment for Gaspard) Gaspard doesn't have him killed. Instead he pays the elf what he promised and lets him go. Celene obviously would have killed the elf (she killed the soldiers for the same thing so it isn't a big leap).

It isn't so black and white as you make it out to be.

 

I should have pointed out that I have always maintained that Celene is flawed compassionate where Gaspard is flawed honourable. So I don't see it as black and white. It's your version of grey I don't agree with. But I guess I'll answer your points, I hope you don't mind if I break them up because it will be easier for me.

 

"She ordered the death of her lovers parents. Can't get much colder than that."

 

I don't think Briala was Celene's lover when she killed her parents. But after Celene killed them, she told Bria to leave. Lady Mantillon would have preferred Celene kill Bria too. It was Felassan who sent Bria back to Celene. So at the very least, Celene was willing to spare Bria and lose her. Gaspard also had people killed to please Mantillon, we just don't know how they were connected to him. All we know is that it pleased Lady Mantillon. I'm not saying what Celene did wasn't horrible, it is. But Gaspard was willing to let his family suffer the consequences if his attack on Celene failed. And I find that's also rather horrible. 

 

"She does kill the soldiers who may be loyal, she doesn't give them a chance, she knows they are a potential (only potential) security risk and she has them killed."

 

The soldier Celene let live was the only one who stayed loyal to her after she revealed herself. The first one said she wasn't his Empress anymore, and the second one was a coward. If you're telling me Gaspard would have let them live, we're going to have to disagree. Celene took a huge risk on the last man. Even Ser Michel, a Chevlier himself, thought it was a bad move. The point is that Celene gains nothing by letting the man go. There's nobody around to see her do it.

 

"Gaspard offers the one she doesn't kill an honorable death (and freedom should the man have managed to kill Gaspard) rather than torture him for information."

 

Gaspard says to Remache that he knows the man has no useful information (he never believes he could be wrong). And so he believes he'll lose nothing by not torturing him. However, I thought it was far from an honourable death. Gaspard fights a starving man using a weapon that he isn't used to. Gaspard is wearing a magical ring that shows his opponent's weaknesses. The ring he got from Lady Mantillon. Celene's man never had a chance. But by killing the man this way, Gaspard receives the approval of his troops. So he gains something from it. 

 

"Had Celene and Gaspard's positions been reversed I have little doubt that Celene would have tortured him."

 

I can't recall a situation where Celene employed torture, so I'm not as certain as you are that she uses it. However, if we are strictly speaking about the situation being reversed I don't think she would have. Celene is a bard. I don't believe she would need to torture the soldier to get the information she wanted. She has spent 20 years talking circles around better liars than that soldier.

 

"Gaspard pays an elf that gives him information, even though the elf recognizes his heraldry..."

 

Gaspard would have killed the elf had no other elves been watching. He says as much. He lets him live because he assumes it will grant him goodwill among the elves that he might need later. Killing him would have been a bad move. It has nothing to do with Gaspard being charitable or honourable. And because it was a bad move, I doubt Celene would have killed him either.

 

Anyway, I didn't intend to get into a debate. I just wanted to say that Celene is flawed, but not a monster. I thought what you said about her being uncaring towards her people was unfair. So I'll leave it at that.